Time Gem Season Updates *Updated (10/19/17)

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Comments

  • pheregas
    pheregas Posts: 1,721 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm beginning to think the devs make these changes just to watch us fight.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,018 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Some food for thought:

    I expected that this would be met with mixed reactions. After the initial tests, someone on here did a poll and there was a pretty big split amongst the player base as to whether or not the wins-based change was preferred over points-based progression.  The results:

    58% YES (156 votes)
    41% NO (109 votes)

    Now I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say regardless of where your roster is at, if you are on these message boards posting about a match-3 game in your spare time you more than likely (though not necessarily) fall more in the “die hard” category than the “casual” category.

    Though right now it could look to developers like the MPQ sky is falling, it is simply because the people unhappy with the change are of course going to be more vocal than those that are neutral or even happy about the change.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/66512/do-you-like-the-new-pvp-system-progression-rewards-based-on-wins-instead-of-points-gained/p1

    The poll shows that even amongst the more die hard players (forum goers) this change is preferred to the old system. This does not take into account the much larger, and likely more casual, player base not represented on the message boards.

    The newer your roster the more this change benefits you as you can reach more rewards much faster that were previously unobtainable. I have about 58% of the 4* Champed so could get 900 pretty regularly. So for me this move is neutral in terms of rewards, a negative in terms of the amount of matches needed to max progress and a positive in terms of flexibility.  Anyone with a roster better than mine likely hates this and those below me likely love it.  I believe there are way more people that stand to benefit from this change and that will applaud it (especially off the boards) despite the vitriol on the boards currently.   Because people on the boards are so split on this I fully expect many more pages of the same arguments restated again and again. Expect a jumpstart tomorrow when we see the reward layout.



    As I posted in another thread, what you are missing is their is a lot of the people I play with, 60% or so, that don't come to the forums anymore.  They are no use to them.  So all of these polls are useless because it misses a major part of the hardcore pvp people.  I would even say if you look at the top 25 allys for the season, maybe 15% of them even come here anymore.  There is more information on Line and Discord then here. 
    No I understand that the forums are a very small yet vocal part of the player base. For every friend you have on Line and Discord, I’m almost certain there are many many more casual people who don’t coordinate with other players using those other methods, go to shield check rooms (or whatever they’re called), and just play the game as a game and not a second job.  It’s those casuals, the lower end rosters and even the future player that has yet to have even picked up this game yet that this change most helps. 

    But hopefully the developers are aware of this (and I think they are).  I’m guessing PVP frustrations and difficulties transitioning were oft-cited reasons many players gave as to why they would not recommend to a friend. Our polls our silly, speaking on behalf of our “hundreds of friends who no one can see but I assure you are all outraged about this and are going to quit is silly”.  You’re right. We don’t have the polls/data that D3 does and I trust they are making changes with their own more informed data in mind. 

    I will back anyone saying put CP back in progression. My guess is that under the old system more people would get CP at T10 then at 1200.  However, WAY more people would get it (just like every other reward) under the new system if it were put back in progression. My conspiracy theory (and I’m owning it as such) says this is the real reason they moved it. They simply don’t want to give that much CP away. I think the ending of vaulting plus this may be their way of slowing down top-end transitioning. Which I personally am okay with. The game has always been a marathon to me anyway. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    acescracked said:
    smkspy said:
    The irony is that the new scl scaling for pve players was loved by highend vet 5 rosters and a blow to 4 star and under rosters. We were told "well, it's not fair for 5 star players before, and they made it right for us despite it being an inconvenience or detriment to you guys." That system wasn't perfect and still isn't.

    Now the shoe is on the other foot, the guys that complained about the complainers are now the complainers. It's not a perfect system, but as we were told, this evens out the playing field a bit. Not a perfect solution just like pve, but thems the breaks too.
    You're argument is flawed.

    Old pve scaling punished you for leveling and developing your roster. Would make players intentionally not level (softcap). New scaling encourages advancing a roster which allows faster clears not longer.

    Old PvP rewarded you for developing your roster by making higher progression rewards more attainable. New PvP punishes you for developing your roster by making you do 40 matches for less rewards. Developed rosters could hit 900 or 1200 in half the matches. New PvP encourages you to not level your characters or you'll face 40 matches of dual champed 5*s.

    So yea it flipped but badly.
    The badly is subjective.  It depends on if you prefer PvE or PvP.  But yeah it definitely flipped in both.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Orion said:
    And this move takes the 15 CP reward away from players like me and gives it to T10 finishers in CL6 and CL7.  Why would the devs do that?  CL6 players need 3* and 4* covers, not CP. 
    It's even more absurd than that.
    The tests had the CP all the way down to CL5.

    So you'll see champed 5s going all the way down to 5 to get their placement CP.
  • Philly484
    Philly484 Posts: 173 Tile Toppler
    Well the reasoning of more players being able to obtain top 10 is completely inaccurate. They are punishing the Veteran players who have took time to develop their roster. Players shouldn't feel like they are being punished, and that is clearly how more of the majority feels. I understand new players are excited about the change it helps develop the roster faster, but then the "Brick Wall" will hit the new players faster, and they will either quit playing because they don't want to spend money, or they will stick with it and spend money. I have a feeling the higher percentage will be new players dropping off.

    The purpose serves new players in roster development, but hurts developed rosters, and from comments from new players they are only looking at the quick 4* cover versus long-term effects of the change. Which will result in not having applicable CP once they want to try to move into 5* territory. Also to the players who want to bad mouth those of us who spend money on the game, that isn't a fair statement(s). If that is what makes the game enjoyable for us, then that is what makes the game enjoyable for us. This move isn't justifiable in regards to veterans, and in my opinion even new players, because all you are looking at is getting a quick 4* cover.
  • twistmonkey
    twistmonkey Posts: 79 Match Maker

    Regarding the PVP changes - there are two separate changes here:

    1) Making the 4* attainable with 40 wins - even though I can hit 900 in way under 40 matches, I'm not too bothered by this - this change helps lower level rosters get the covers they need without the inherent frustration of getting from 800 to 900. We've all been there and I totally understand that this is the dev's way of countering this. Fine. No problem. I play at 4* level, but I can understand that this is more painful for 5* players.

    2) Moving CP to placement. No logic to this at all, other than decreasing CP acquisition rate for advanced rosters, simple as that. Make the 15cp 50 wins and be done with it. Problem solved.

    Or, you know, open CL9. Just saying...

  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    Ummm. Forum polls are dumb. We dont represent the playerbase. We don't even represent the majority of vets. 

    Anyone who thinks removong a reward accessible to all, and only makes it available to the top 2 % and says its for everyone's benefit is either a liar, stupid, or both. 

    This isnt to help anyone. Its a ploy to push midrange players up by flooding them with covers that cost hp to roster and to get players closer to 5* land because the majority of purchases are made at the beginning to get a jump on their roster,  and once 5* land is in sight. In between that not much spending happens. 

    At least that was my and most of my alliances experiences. Buy slots early. Buy cp these days. 

    As for dev response, lack of details etc. 

    Are you really that surprised? This is the same group that dropped a brand new event that almost instantly failed, and they tpok the weekend, entire event, off. Its also the same guys that deny swaps, give cut and paste answers and rarely read your ticket. 


  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Even if the more people getting CP in T5 is true (which could be true, it's hard to say for certain without all the data), it will be more difficult to get it with consistency, which is the benefit of progression vs placement.  Having it in placement is going to encourage lead to 5* players jumping to various different SCLs looking for as close to guaranteed as possible.  It will also likely increase sniping, which has been a problem that sorely needs to be addressed for a long time...
  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    Sniping is intended
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017

    corytutor said:
    Ummm. Forum polls are dumb. We dont represent the playerbase. We don't even represent the majority of vets. 

    Anyone who thinks removong a reward accessible to all, and only makes it available to the top 2 % and says its for everyone's benefit is either a liar, stupid, or both. 

    This isnt to help anyone. Its a ploy to push midrange players up by flooding them with covers that cost hp to roster and to get players closer to 5* land because the majority of purchases are made at the beginning to get a jump on their roster,  and once 5* land is in sight. In between that not much spending happens. 

    At least that was my and most of my alliances experiences. Buy slots early. Buy cp these days. 

    As for dev response, lack of details etc. 

    Are you really that surprised? This is the same group that dropped a brand new event that almost instantly failed, and they tpok the weekend, entire event, off. Its also the same guys that deny swaps, give cut and paste answers and rarely read your ticket. 


    I agree with much of the content of this post, though the tone is a bit more conspiratorial than I think is useful. 

    But the last parahraph is wrong.  You can't conflate demi (the people that designed boss rush so badly and then threw up their hands and said "eh, we'll get it next time" when the problems became super obvious) with d3 (the people who run these forums and administer CS tickets).

    Also, ha!  not on mobile at the moment and just saw your sig corytutor.  Eyesnipe?!!!  your posts make much more sense now.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Finally, I would like to say that by removing the 15 CP they are essentially slowing down everyone's progress, so it is not like other stuff they have done intentionally (A/B testing comes to mind) or unintentionally (bonus draw rates glitch that many missed out on)  where you suffer and someone else gains.  Obviously the people who were hitting 1200 suffer the most, but theoretically, this CP is being taken from EVERYONE.  So if the end game transition slows down, at least it slows down for everyone and it's not like your neighbors are now transitioning faster than you.  Just younger rosters get to catch up faster which is GOOD for the health of the game.

    But it's not slowing everyone down.  2% of players will still get their "full" cp allotment.  So this change will arguably further stratify the playerbase. 

  • Bubez
    Bubez Posts: 2 Just Dropped In
    Daredevil217 said:
    Philly484 said:
    Well the reasoning of more players being able to obtain top 10 is completely inaccurate. They are punishing the Veteran players who have took time to develop their roster. Players shouldn't feel like they are being punished, and that is clearly how more of the majority feels. I understand new players are excited about the change it helps develop the roster faster, but then the "Brick Wall" will hit the new players faster, and they will either quit playing because they don't want to spend money, or they will stick with it and spend money. I have a feeling the higher percentage will be new players dropping off.

    The purpose serves new players in roster development, but hurts developed rosters, and from comments from new players they are only looking at the quick 4* cover versus long-term effects of the change. Which will result in not having applicable CP once they want to try to move into 5* territory. Also to the players who want to bad mouth those of us who spend money on the game, that isn't a fair statement(s). If that is what makes the game enjoyable for us, then that is what makes the game enjoyable for us. This move isn't justifiable in regards to veterans, and in my opinion even new players, because all you are looking at is getting a quick 4* cover.
    It’s 6 one way, half a dozen the other. 

    If forced to choose between the two alternatives (and that right there is a problem in and of itself because there are an infinite number of other options they could have went with, but IF...), then people can have

    a very slow beginning transition and a slightly faster (but still slow) end game transition (old system).

    Or a much quicker beginning transition and an even slower end game transition (current system).

    [Not to mention all the CP a player is missing out on on the back end, they will get loads on the front end being able to climb to 575 earlier in their roster development, plus will get the occasional T10 while not likely ever getting to 1200 points early on.  So they will have way more CP when they are ready to make the leap to 4/5 land.]

    I'm not a developer. But as a psychologist I’d say the former is more important to the developers. Hooking people early, getting them resourced and invested is far more important than speeding up the end game for many reasons.

    The biggest from a psychology perspective is once they have you hooked/addicted it is much harder to leave if you are unhappy later. Look at any theory on dysfunctional relationships, sunk cost fallacy, cognitive dissonance theory and you can understand that people will put up with a lot once they feel they are invested.  We grip and complain but will still grind it out for Nightcrawler tomorrow.  Much easier for a new player to get curbstomped over and over in PVP, see that they have to roster, collect, and level 100's of characters in order to transition to the end game, and say "what's the point?".

    The second is purely speculation on my part, but 1) vaulting decisions 2) removing CP from progression 3) putting off CL126 for as long as possible, all tell me that perhaps it's intentional that they are trying to speed up the early game and slow down the late game which makes PERFECT sense.  You need to get people transitioning faster or else the light at the end of the tunnel isn't visible and people quit.  But if people at the top transition too fast then they either quit when they reach the ceiling and have no where to go (boredom), or we need to open up the 6* tier, which I really don't want.  Maybe, just maybe... the developers aren't incompetent fools, but are willing to break a couple eggs in order for the game to have longevity.  They also view the game on a larger scale than "how is my individual roster development impacted".

    Finally, I would like to say that by removing the 15 CP they are essentially slowing down everyone's progress, so it is not like other stuff they have done intentionally (A/B testing comes to mind) or unintentionally (bonus draw rates glitch that many missed out on)  where you suffer and someone else gains.  Obviously the people who were hitting 1200 suffer the most, but theoretically, this CP is being taken from EVERYONE.  So if the end game transition slows down, at least it slows down for everyone and it's not like your neighbors are now transitioning faster than you.  Just younger rosters get to catch up faster which is GOOD for the health of the game.

    Again, psychologically speaking it's easier for us to stomach stuff that impacts us negatively if we can just paint ourselves as victims and vilify others, but reality is much more complex.  Something to consider.

    Great analysis. Being a cognitive psychologist myself, I 100% agree with your post, well done!
  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx said:

    But the last parahraph is wrong.  You can't conflate demi (the people that designed boss rush so badly and then threw up their hands and said "eh, we'll get it next time" when the problems became super obvious) with d3 (the people who run these forums and administer CS tickets).

    Also, ha!  not on mobile at the moment and just saw your sig corytutor.  Eyesnipe?!!!  your posts make much more sense now.

    Why not? I know its not the same group of people but one group does employ the other. In my business, if i hire people and they bungle the job, im responsible for that. Why should they be any different. 

    And yes, I'm EyeSnipe. 

  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Vhailorx said:
    Finally, I would like to say that by removing the 15 CP they are essentially slowing down everyone's progress, so it is not like other stuff they have done intentionally (A/B testing comes to mind) or unintentionally (bonus draw rates glitch that many missed out on)  where you suffer and someone else gains.  Obviously the people who were hitting 1200 suffer the most, but theoretically, this CP is being taken from EVERYONE.  So if the end game transition slows down, at least it slows down for everyone and it's not like your neighbors are now transitioning faster than you.  Just younger rosters get to catch up faster which is GOOD for the health of the game.

    But it's not slowing everyone down.  2% of players will still get their "full" cp allotment.  So this change will arguably further stratify the playerbase. 

    Sure, but the theory still fits.  It's slowed down for more people, while still allowing some to have something to chase, a la carrot and stick
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    corytutor said:
    Vhailorx said:

    But the last parahraph is wrong.  You can't conflate demi (the people that designed boss rush so badly and then threw up their hands and said "eh, we'll get it next time" when the problems became super obvious) with d3 (the people who run these forums and administer CS tickets).

    Also, ha!  not on mobile at the moment and just saw your sig corytutor.  Eyesnipe?!!!  your posts make much more sense now.

    Why not? I know its not the same group of people but one group does employ the other. In my business, if i hire people and they bungle the job, im responsible for that. Why should they be any different. 

    And yes, I'm EyeSnipe. 

    I see you.....
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Vhailorx said:

    corytutor said:
    Ummm. Forum polls are dumb. We dont represent the playerbase. We don't even represent the majority of vets. 

    Anyone who thinks removong a reward accessible to all, and only makes it available to the top 2 % and says its for everyone's benefit is either a liar, stupid, or both. 

    This isnt to help anyone. Its a ploy to push midrange players up by flooding them with covers that cost hp to roster and to get players closer to 5* land because the majority of purchases are made at the beginning to get a jump on their roster,  and once 5* land is in sight. In between that not much spending happens. 

    At least that was my and most of my alliances experiences. Buy slots early. Buy cp these days. 

    As for dev response, lack of details etc. 

    Are you really that surprised? This is the same group that dropped a brand new event that almost instantly failed, and they tpok the weekend, entire event, off. Its also the same guys that deny swaps, give cut and paste answers and rarely read your ticket. 


    I agree with much of the content of this post, though the tone is a bit more conspiratorial than I think is useful. 

    But the last parahraph is wrong.  You can't conflate demi (the people that designed boss rush so badly and then threw up their hands and said "eh, we'll get it next time" when the problems became super obvious) with d3 (the people who run these forums and administer CS tickets).

    Also, ha!  not on mobile at the moment and just saw your sig corytutor.  Eyesnipe?!!!  your posts make much more sense now.
    Really? You agree that those of us in this thread who can understand the reasoning are either liars, stupid or both?  
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,018 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    Bubez said:
    Great analysis. Being a cognitive psychologist myself, I 100% agree with your post, well done!
    Thanks! Mostly a Person-Centered therapist here (work in a University Counseling Center) but still have to know all of that Cognitive/Behavioral stuff for licensing purposes and it does come in handy with clients as well.

    I'd be shocked if a game this successful didn't have psychologists in their employ helping guide decisions.

    They use continuous reinforcement (every time I play, I get rewarded) which is the strongest for developing a conditioned response early on when learning a new behavior.

    They also combine that with partial reinforcement on a variable ratio schedule (the "rush" you get pulling that slot machine, or in this case, opening tokens).  This is the schedule of reinforcement that most strongly maintains a desired behavior (how gambling addictions are formed) and is hardest to break.

    So in short, they know how to hook you, AND keep you.  That's not by accident.
  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    Yes. How else could you justify taking a reward available to all, limit it to the top 2% and say it helps the little guy? It doesnt. If anything its going to further seperate the top from everyone else. 

    It wont be helpful to the little guy for years, and then hes going to hit a wall trying to transition to 5* land. 

    Its pretty obviously flawed. 

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