*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Unknown

Congratulations, this is bar none the single worst idea I have ever seen.

Unknown

the TC's username says it all

awful thread

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

Blue Shoes wrote:

Misguided wrote:

forgrim wrote:

running punisher to destroy rag's is one way to go too.

which i will be doing if i get a maxed out punisher quickly.

Why do you see punisher as a counter to Ragnarok?

Because the punisher is strong against tanks. With a level 5 red, he can down anyone with 40% or les health. That makes it better against opponents with high total health.

On the flip side, to get him down to 40%, Punisher relies on strike/attack tiles and Rags can clear those right out. Remember, you need to do 4000 damage first to get the 3000 damage from his red.

In the end, Punisher's red is still just direct damage (~3k for 8 AP) and while it's a very good one, Mags still has the better one IMO.

I see Punisher more as a counter to high lvl PVE mobs and boosted characters.

Agreed. He will be very good in pve. For pve his red will actually be the best option for red use if its a lvl 240, his black will be harder for the machine to destroy on purpose, and his green both makes lovely tiles and destroys a location of your choice...meaning anti countdown tiles. His red will be a second tier red on most teams and situational for PvP. The black and green are what punisher will be either a good or bad character based around. I imagine it will be rather irritating getting him up to 5/5/3 though as his red is likely to be his most common color if the rewards are indicative of the dev's future placement on rewards.

I think punisher + rag is more likely and viable than punisher as an anti rag. Rag red to build green, rag only transforms basic tiles to green so if you lose a tile from your own move it means there was at least a 4 green match, which is most of the way to another green move. It means rag/punisher will keep your green stocked and let you guarantee that the opponent cannot keep their own tiles up. Covers black red green very well just needing a Blue yellow purple (Spiderman, say hello to team "skip"). If anything rag counters punisher, not the reverse.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

On the flip side, to get him down to 40%, Punisher relies on strike/attack tiles and Rags can clear those right out. Remember, you need to do 4000 damage first to get the 3000 damage from his red.

In the end, Punisher's red is still just direct damage (~3k for 8 AP) and while it's a very good one, Mags still has the better one IMO.

I see Punisher more as a counter to high lvl PVE mobs and boosted characters.

I agree. Mag deals a ton of damage. Punisher is still plenty useful. It's not like he's going into the fight alone. Mag would work well with him, as would Spiderman. I was thinking particularly of using him against a buffed Rag. He becomes more useful against buffed characters, which I think was one of the goals. Also, he creates red tiles so pairing him with Rag isn't a bad idea either. Granted, he doesn't make a ton of them, but there aren't that many ways to increase red AP generation.

Unknown

Meh, I'm not against nerfing Rag, but I don't think I'm in favor either.

I mostly just want to get more Covers of him. Mine is stuck at LV 18 with 1/1.

Unknown

Edit: Originally an analysis on Ragnarok but changed to Character analysis by request.
Edit: Formatting, reorganization

After taking a look for discernible patterns in damage and ability costs I thought It might be a good start to look at character abilities and AP costs. I originally imagined that this would be a good way to have a thoughtful analysis on Ragnarok. Judging based on facts, his abilities, and comparing them to other characters. This is not a discussion about nerfing Ragnarok. This is a discussion based on facts. I want this to be a real analysis based on in-game precedent.

HIT POINTS
Thor (85): 5340
Ragnarok (115): 7111

Ragnarok and Thor have a linear gain of ~60 hit points per level. Ragnarok (115) has ~1800 hit points more than Thor (85).

DAMAGE
Wolverine (85): Adamantium Slash (5/5) - 2225 Damage (10)
Thor (85): Mjolnir's Might (5/5) - 1113 Damage (6)
Thor (85): Thunder Strike (5/5) - 2225 Damage (11)
M. Hawkeye (85): Electric Arrow (5/5) - 2456 Damage (10)

Baseline Skill Evaluation
Based on Wolverine and Thor abilities
1 AP cost to change 5 random tiles to a particular color
1 AP for each 222.5 damage

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Ragnarok as he is now:
Ragnarok (115): Thunderclap (5/5) - 633 Damage (2)
Following the pattern, Ragnarok's Thunderclap as a 2-star character might look like this:
Ragnarok (85): Thunderclap (5/5) - 668 Damage (4)

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Classic Storm (85): Wind Storm (5/5) - 1670 to all opponents and 4 turn stun to current target (11)
This ability is VERY powerful. Compare it to IM40 Ballistic Salvo. This is BETTER than Ballistic Salvo.
Thor (85): Call the Storm (5/5) 1113 damage to current target, 556 damage to remaining opponents (13)
Appears expensive for damage dealt compared to other AoE. A cost of 10 green AP seems more appropriate
Modern Hawkeye (85): Blast Arrow (5/5) 1645 damage to all enemies after 2 turns (10)
Appears countdown tile balances powerful AoE

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Ragnarok has 2 strong colors and 4 weak colors. If we compare average damage per tile, I suggest adding damages for each tile type and dividing by the number of tile types. This results in an average damage per tile of 20.6 for Ragnarok. I use this to consider the damage done by the destroyed tiles by Godlike Ability. He deals an average of 330 damage just for the 16 destroyed tiles, at level 115.

If we were to consider additional damage by cascading matches I don't know how to figure that. Perhaps an average of 8 tiles per use. That's 8 AP plus 165 damage. That's 8 ap plus about 500 damage per 6 green. I don't know if it's appropriate to consider it more than just an added opportunity to make a match. Juggernaut has technically the same ability at the same AP cost. So i might leave it as 330 damage plus opportunity for matches. Modern storm for 10 green AP can shatter 16 tiles, generating damage and AP. Then there is the opportunity for matches.

6 AP for Godlike Ability seems expensive. The "overpowered" nature of Thunderclap might have been balanced by the underwhelming Godlike Ability.

mischiefmaker

Very nice analysis! One thing to note is that Godlike Power is different from Unstoppable Crash and Lightning Strike (and don't forget C.Storm's Lightning Storm, which belongs in the same category but is harder to analyze due to the variability), because it's targeted instead of random. I don't have numbers to back this up but I feel like I see more cascades off Crash and Lightning than I do off Godlike Power.

Unknown

My analysis of Ragnarok:

He's pretty good.

Unknown

I'm tired of talking about Rags. Can we make this a general character analysis thread instead?

Spidey gets 10 cumulative turns of stun with 8 blue AP.
Cap gets 2 turns of stun + tile removal for effectively 2 AP.
m.Widow gets 7 cumulative turns of stun for 9 AP.
m.Hawkeye gets 4 turns of stun + 2.5k damage for 10 AP.
c.Storm gets 4 turns of stun + 5k cumulative damage for 11 AP.
IM35 gets 3 turns of stun + 1.5k damage for 19 AP (lol).
IM45 gets 2 turns of stun + 8k cumulative damage for 20 AP + drain.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

I'm tired of talking about Rags. Can we make this a general character analysis thread instead?

Spidey gets 10 cumulative turns of stun with 8 blue AP.
Cap gets 2 turns of stun + tile removal for effectively 2 AP.
m.Widow gets 7 cumulative turns of stun for 9 AP.
m.Hawkeye gets 4 turns of stun + 2.5k damage for 10 AP.
c.Storm gets 4 turns of stun + 5k cumulative damage for 11 AP.
IM35 gets 3 turns of stun + 1.5k damage for 19 AP (lol).
IM45 gets 2 turns of stun + 8k cumulative damage for 20 AP + drain.

Good idea. Done. Changed to character.

Unknown

I would say that averaging 8 tiles shattered post Godlike Power is a bit too generous. MANY times after using godlike power, no additional matches occur. Much more often than after Storm does her thing.

Also, the fact that Rags is the only character with 4 weak colors. This means his match-4's do less damage on average, and more importantly, once he is isolated, any turn Rags doesn't make a red or green match is essentially a wasted turn.
This was my strategy against Rags in PvE when my team was low powered, if I could deny him the ability to make a red or green match, it was like getting a free extra turn. It's much easier to deny 2 colors than 3.
In addition to only being strong in 2 colors, his damage on those colors is not very impressive. Wolverine at level 85 does almost the same amount as Rags does at level 115.

That being said, his Red ability is obviously better than any other ability out there... But it's also his only real draw. Godlike power is nice, but it's really just icing.

Unknown

Its just really boring facing Spider-Man/Rag teams all the time though. Spend more time skipping lightning rounds than anything else.

Unknown

A very good point about rags made by twan. Though his red ability dominates his green is sub par at best. That's why my favorite use is rag paired with a character like storm c or widow gs that have strong green abilities. A rag without red isn't that impressive and sometimes the game just does not give you red.

I really don't see him as being OP in the least. Especially not in regular. His health is quite unreal in lightning rounds but that aside I don't believe in regular play that he is any more or less useful than other 3*'s. Don't get me wrong he's the best tank in the game, but what's a good tank without its crew to support? I think all the nerf rag threads are due to his use is a lil more obvious than others so more people tend to utilize him. Once a lot more level 100+ villains start popping up the usefulness and abilities of every1 will be more clear.

Unknown

The following lineup can defeat Spider Man / Ragnarok lineups. I've tested it myself. With good luck you'll have a short fight. With bad luck you'll win but have to heal up. They are all 2-star characters.
C.Storm (85) / M.Magneto (85) / Bullseye (69)

Focus on getting purple AP, M.Magneto can place it strategically to connect blue tiles on board. If there is too much green from thunderclap C.Storm can use it to grab tiles. Deny Blue and Red to Ragnarok and Spider Man. The shields from Bullseye are handy to mitigate damage. Use Magneto's Red if you get enough red, you get AP from the tiles it shatters. I only used Bullseye for proof of concept, but he ended up working well. I imagine that O.Widow would be better with her black ability.

EDIT: In case you wondered what the strategy was, the idea is to use Wind Storm several times.

Unknown

Now that Spideys purple got 'fixed', I am seriously considering Ragnarök balanced compared to the stunlock-ery of Mr Parker. It's mostly his limitations that make him and break him. ***Magneto can **** my lineups even harder but people seldom encounter high Magnetos.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

The following lineup can defeat Spider Man / Ragnarok lineups. I've tested it myself. With good luck you'll have a short fight. With bad luck you'll win but have to heal up. They are all 2-star characters.
C.Storm (85) / M.Magneto (85) / Bullseye (69)

I think the problem with this is you'll get attacked/retaliated against a lot using this team. Won the battle but not the war, etc, etc.

Also, m.Mags and Bullseye aren't more common than IM40 from my experience (I prolly completed 2 IM40s and my m.Mags and Bullseye are not even close to complete). Might as well just run IM40+Thor and hope for the best.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

The following lineup can defeat Spider Man / Ragnarok lineups. I've tested it myself. With good luck you'll have a short fight. With bad luck you'll win but have to heal up. They are all 2-star characters.
C.Storm (85) / M.Magneto (85) / Bullseye (69)

I think the problem with this is you'll get attacked/retaliated against a lot using this team. Won the battle but not the war, etc, etc.

Also, m.Mags and Bullseye aren't more common than IM40 from my experience (I prolly completed 2 IM40s and my m.Mags and Bullseye are not even close to complete). Might as well just run IM40+Thor and hope for the best.

Well, the pleasure I get from the game right now is playing different lineups.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

Well, the pleasure I get from the game right now is playing different lineups.

I wish I had that luxury, but I haven't been as lucky with tokens.

Unknown

Let's just stop buffing the bejesus out of him. It's been said before in this thread; I just wanted to put it out there again so that support of the idea would be obvious. While they're at it, the devs could stop 200% buffing any characters outside of PVE. That sort of disparity really drives home the gap between players who have a lot of covers and players who do not (whether because of luck, time played, money spent, or whatever). I'm not saying that the dedicated shouldn't have an advantage, just that that advantage doesn't need to be multiplied by 3.

For the record, my answer to the survey was "meh." This is because, on the issue of nerfing, I'm indifferent. I don't have enough 3* play experience to really say whether or not Rag is a threat to game balance. On the issue of buffing, I'm fairly to deeply passionate. It will be very difficult for any of us to approach this issue rationally if our emotional responses are being multiplied by 3.

Unknown

Eh, why are the options so limited.

Things I'm okay with:

1) Keep rag as is and start the process of slowly buffing other heroes
2) Rework him, but he no longer has the same red

Neither of those options are addressed...