Supports are coming to PVP

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  • McPosterson
    McPosterson Posts: 43 Just Dropped In

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

    This is the only thing that matters.

    On offense whether you win on turn 0 or turn 3 doesn't matter because the player taking the hit just sees a loss for X number of points. They don't care how it happened (turn 0 or turn 3) only that it happened.

    The only thing players really are going to care about is enemy team supports. There is no way an enemy team with May/Emma can have 30 AP on turn 0 because there isn't boosts for the AI so at most they'll get a few AP in some colors which means eating an AOE but not one that can wipe you on the AI's first turn.

    As I said many posts above. The biggest gripe is going to come from increased health pack usage, not actual losses. I bet the player loss rate barely increases but damage to characters will skyrocket due to extra firing of powers by the AI. What they should have done for this 1st season is auto-healed your team (or double the free health packs) if you won while the Devs and players evaluate how supports are working.

    KGB

    On offense, winning turn 0 absolutely matters, probably more than defense.

    Yes, the player seeing my hit doesn't know how long exactly it took me, but when players shield hop, they're trying to spend a minimum amount of time unshielded. If I have a turn0 team and you don't, I can hit you probably 4-5 times on your hop, before you can do one fight.

    This would actually be pretty great for me and players like me, but most of the players I'd like to fight will probably have turn0 teams, meaning they'll be able to do 4-5 fights on a hop before I can hit them once -- unless I also use a super fast turn0 team with tuned supports.

    See what happens here? We're forced to use only the very fastest teams, otherwise we just lose. And the standard for "fast" just got multiplied by like 4-5x. Tons of teams and characters immediately stop being usable because they're too slow, even if they're fast in the current metagame.

    The issue you describe matters to probably less than 1% of the player base. Plus, at that level isn't everything already rigged anyway (ie shield check rooms, baking, not hitting certain other alliances) with regards to who gets to win events/seasons? For everyone else it doesn't. PvP also seems fine with everyone boosting tons of AP which also speeds up matches and does everything else in your argument. If AP boosts are fine why isn't a bit more AP boosts from supports fine?

    The the question is do you throw out supports in PvP for <1% of the player base or do they have to adapt to the new normal that everyone else operates under just fine.

    KGB

    many players win 2 fast now. supports makes worse this game mode. No skill needed to play

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,784 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

    This is the only thing that matters.

    On offense whether you win on turn 0 or turn 3 doesn't matter because the player taking the hit just sees a loss for X number of points. They don't care how it happened (turn 0 or turn 3) only that it happened.

    The only thing players really are going to care about is enemy team supports. There is no way an enemy team with May/Emma can have 30 AP on turn 0 because there isn't boosts for the AI so at most they'll get a few AP in some colors which means eating an AOE but not one that can wipe you on the AI's first turn.

    As I said many posts above. The biggest gripe is going to come from increased health pack usage, not actual losses. I bet the player loss rate barely increases but damage to characters will skyrocket due to extra firing of powers by the AI. What they should have done for this 1st season is auto-healed your team (or double the free health packs) if you won while the Devs and players evaluate how supports are working.

    KGB

    On offense, winning turn 0 absolutely matters, probably more than defense.

    Yes, the player seeing my hit doesn't know how long exactly it took me, but when players shield hop, they're trying to spend a minimum amount of time unshielded. If I have a turn0 team and you don't, I can hit you probably 4-5 times on your hop, before you can do one fight.

    This would actually be pretty great for me and players like me, but most of the players I'd like to fight will probably have turn0 teams, meaning they'll be able to do 4-5 fights on a hop before I can hit them once -- unless I also use a super fast turn0 team with tuned supports.

    See what happens here? We're forced to use only the very fastest teams, otherwise we just lose. And the standard for "fast" just got multiplied by like 4-5x. Tons of teams and characters immediately stop being usable because they're too slow, even if they're fast in the current metagame.

    The issue you describe matters to probably less than 1% of the player base. Plus, at that level isn't everything already rigged anyway (ie shield check rooms, baking, not hitting certain other alliances) with regards to who gets to win events/seasons? For everyone else it doesn't. PvP also seems fine with everyone boosting tons of AP which also speeds up matches and does everything else in your argument. If AP boosts are fine why isn't a bit more AP boosts from supports fine?

    The the question is do you throw out supports in PvP for <1% of the player base or do they have to adapt to the new normal that everyone else operates under just fine.

    KGB

    AP boosts are already limited to +4, it used to be higher but was changed because the 1%ers abused it.

    All the PvP matchmaking stuff that everybody hates/doesn't understand? Every single one of those weird fixes was put in place because the 1% abused some aspect of matchmaking in the past.

    Relatively small groups of players can have very large impacts on the game as a whole. Before the devs killed cupcakes, almost every player could trivially hit max prog in PvP -- the top scorers were consistently putting up like 5k or something, and max prog was like top 250.

    Look at the difference in point values between the slices! That's all down to how a few groups of 1%ers play. Those players matter in PvP.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 515 Critical Contributor

    @KGB said:

    @slidecage said:
    How does may Emma get 30 ap in turn 0

    Boosts. +2 All = 12. +2 in 2 other colors gives 8 more for a total of +20.

    Get +10 more from 3 Supports that give out starting AP.

    KGB

    May counts tu ap as well so +2 all gives 14.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,806 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Phumade said:

    >

    LOL
    Let me assure you its not all rainbows and unicorns at that end of the spectrum. All that aside, the play loop established at that tier ALWAYS trickles down to the masses. Newer rosters might not see the same pressure, but the tactics will be adapted to what resources they do have.,,

    The trickle down is always a poor excuse for the cheating. If the game was actually played like a proper PvP then the scores wouldn’t be as high and the reward tiers would have been changed to reflect that.

    If this means collaborating cheaters can be hit faster I’m all for it, at my level I’m only ever going to be hit while I’m worth points.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,784 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @Phumade said:

    >

    LOL
    Let me assure you its not all rainbows and unicorns at that end of the spectrum. All that aside, the play loop established at that tier ALWAYS trickles down to the masses. Newer rosters might not see the same pressure, but the tactics will be adapted to what resources they do have.,,

    The trickle down is always a poor excuse for the cheating. If the game was actually played like a proper PvP then the scores wouldn’t be as high and the reward tiers would have been changed to reflect that.

    If this means collaborating cheaters can be hit faster I’m all for it, at my level I’m only ever going to be hit while I’m worth points.

    It won't mean that. The snipers will get faster but the hoppers will also get faster. All it'll do is push out any players who don't have (or don't want to use) the fastest possible stuff.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 836 Critical Contributor

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @bluewolf said:
    I also have to say this all reminds me of when the prior devs said we would all have to do wins only for PvP and people got mad and said “this is a terrible system” AFTER they did a test run in an off season.

    And they stopped buy clubs.

    And the devs backed off immediately and then they did the hybrid we have today.

    A difference from back then is there really aren’t buy clubs running anymore because the offers on any given day are far better deals. So any organized protest is basically a nonstarter in a way that would make a difference to them.

    I mean it's an experiment. A terrible experiment that is feeding penguins to a wood chipper to see if that grows more penguins but they already said they can turn off the wood chipper. Maybe it will end up as the craziest PvP season for ages or maybe it will be like the Rotten Tomatoes score for The Acolyte. Either way a boycott over this would be childish and ludicrous.

    Can confirm this is indeed a horrific experiment, there is blood everywhere its worse than the horse sized duck incident of 2022.

  • slidecage
    slidecage Posts: 3,440 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @slidecage said:
    How does may Emma get 30 ap in turn 0

    Boosts. +2 All = 12. +2 in 2 other colors gives 8 more for a total of +20.

    Get +10 more from 3 Supports that give out starting AP.

    KGB

    Isn't boost all hard to come by
    What 3 supports give ap. Thought it was just a chance to get more ap

    I know my Emma does need to find the other

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,222 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 20 June 2024, 21:28

    @slidecage said:

    @KGB said:

    @slidecage said:
    How does may Emma get 30 ap in turn 0

    Boosts. +2 All = 12. +2 in 2 other colors gives 8 more for a total of +20.

    Get +10 more from 3 Supports that give out starting AP.

    KGB

    Isn't boost all hard to come by
    What 3 supports give ap. Thought it was just a chance to get more ap

    I know my Emma does need to find the other

    You can use ISO to get boosts (the All AP ones you need hero points). Dedicated players have no problem buying lots of them.

    All the supports only give you a chance at AP. But at R5 it gets up to 80%. At 80%, the chance that you get 0 extra AP is .2x.2x.2=.008 or <1% of the time. So 99% of the time you'll get at least one set of extra AP from a support. At that point you'll have 27 or so AP (forgot that TU counts so you start with 22 AP from boosts). That should be enough to one shot.

    KGB

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    Look at the difference in point values between the slices! That's all down to how a few groups of 1%ers play. Those players matter in PvP.

    We should just be grateful that nothing of National importance is related to this game. I hesitate to think about WarThunder Line rooms.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,433 Chairperson of the Boards

    Hopefully some upgrades to support search and filter are coming along with this now that we need to know what they all do.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,007 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @Phumade said:

    >

    LOL
    Let me assure you its not all rainbows and unicorns at that end of the spectrum. All that aside, the play loop established at that tier ALWAYS trickles down to the masses. Newer rosters might not see the same pressure, but the tactics will be adapted to what resources they do have.,,

    The trickle down is always a poor excuse for the cheating. If the game was actually played like a proper PvP then the scores wouldn’t be as high and the reward tiers would have been changed to reflect that.

    If this means collaborating cheaters can be hit faster I’m all for it, at my level I’m only ever going to be hit while I’m worth points.

    It won't mean that. The snipers will get faster but the hoppers will also get faster. All it'll do is push out any players who don't have (or don't want to use) the fastest possible stuff.

    That's pretty much what I expect to see. looking forward to the temporary chaos.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,241 Chairperson of the Boards

    Maybe somebody will do a thread to help so that I know that Aunt May should be equipped with Love Eggs and not Namor's horn or whatever.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 836 Critical Contributor

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe somebody will do a thread to help so that I know that Aunt May should be equipped with Love Eggs and not Namor's horn or whatever.

    Question, are we talking about tom Holland aunt may or Tobey maguire aunt may

  • Captain_Trips88
    Captain_Trips88 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe somebody will do a thread to help so that I know that Aunt May should be equipped with Love Eggs and not Namor's horn or whatever.

    Question, are we talking about tom Holland aunt may or Tobey maguire aunt may

    I’ll be honest, I’m not sure which one you are hoping for…

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 836 Critical Contributor

    Exceptional work from the capt there

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,241 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe somebody will do a thread to help so that I know that Aunt May should be equipped with Love Eggs and not Namor's horn or whatever.

    Question, are we talking about tom Holland aunt may or Tobey maguire aunt may

    Eh, either has certain benefits.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,273 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 21 June 2024, 17:01

    Had a match against the omega red heroic boss end without making a move. My storm breaker support on mthor created a few red tiles on the first turn that happened to create a match 5 and then cascade into more match 5's that killed OR before any move was made.

    I bet people are gonna love it against defensive teams after they've made one single move and some shenanigans like that take some one out or end the match immediately.

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