Supports are coming to PVP

Timemachinego

Gotta love how the "excitement" here is more about how badly it can possibly go rather than how cool and refreshing a (almost universally unwanted) change like this could be. My best hopes are that this blows up so horrifically that they have to reverse course immediately... and that seems to be a pretty common thought across all the various social platforms.

I'm REALLY not loving the "Screw it, we'll do it live!" of all of this.

slidecage

Hey they do two things on boss battles. Why not do two pvp

One pvp support base
One pvp no support

Can only just one per event/season

Or even if you could join both like it would kill them give more rewards

Just saying

DAZ0273

@slidecage said:
Hey they do two things on boss battles. Why not do two pvp

One pvp support base
One pvp no support

Can only just one per event/season

Or even if you could join both like it would kill them give more rewards

Just saying

If points from both events still went into the overall Season total then you would be actively punishing players who did not want to enter both events. You would have to have two different Seasons running concurrently, one normal and one Support. It's a lot of PvP.

slidecage

@DAZ0273 said:

@slidecage said:
Hey they do two things on boss battles. Why not do two pvp

One pvp support base
One pvp no support

Can only just one per event/season

Or even if you could join both like it would kill them give more rewards

Just saying

If points from both events still went into the overall Season total then you would be actively punishing players who did not want to enter both events. You would have to have two different Seasons running concurrently, one normal and one Support. It's a lot of PvP.

Make one non seasonal maybe the support one till we see how bad it be

entrailbucket

@fight4thedream said:
Not really sure what to think. I do appreciate that it will probably speed up matches, but with turn 0 kills being a thing in PvE, I don't think a lot of players will be happy losing matches within the first or second turn with increased frequency.

The dev team should consider having two or three types of supports:

PvP exclusive: for example Refreshment Cart
PvE exclusive: for example Atlantis
Universal: for example Kamar-Taj

I guess a general rule of thumb would be to keep AP generating supports PvE exclusive and supports that aren't very meaningful for PvE PvP exclusive.

The weird thing about supports has always been that the power levels are all over the place. There's a few that are like, "when you make a match, 50% chance to generate a strength 10 strike tile" and others like "you win the match turn 0." The affiliations and bonus perks are mostly weird too (isn't there one that only BP can equip?).

They were a decent idea but the implementation was very low-effort. It felt like the old devs had plans for them but never got around to fully implementing them -- they started and then completely gave up.

When the new devs started doing stuff with them it was great. The new supports don't seem to suffer from the same problems. They have a vision for what they are and they've started executing it. I assumed that they'd redo all the old ones (to make them look like the new ones) before expanding the system.

This is disappointing because they've been talking about this change for awhile -- they should've made those updates by now. I assume they will eventually, and we all know what needs changing. Why do we have to sit through a whole season of this nonsense before they do the stuff we all know they need to do?

tfcrazy1980

Welp, guess I'll be sitting out this season also, maybe retirement isnt such a bad option for me now

Borstock

Not looking forward to this AT ALL.

LavaManLee

Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

WhiteBomber

I never took PVP seriously so I am looking forward to this. I don't think there has been much thought put in to defensive vs offensive supports, things get crazy here.

However, I do fully agree 5may and others should not be able to immediately win... that's silly, but at the same time, I'd maybe rather fight 5may than 3>4May? Hard to say, but it does sound like the Chasm stock keeps rising!

slidecage

@WhiteBomber said:
I never took PVP seriously so I am looking forward to this. I don't think there has been much thought put in to defensive vs offensive supports, things get crazy here.

However, I do fully agree 5may and others should not be able to immediately win... that's silly, but at the same time, I'd maybe rather fight 5may than 3>4May? Hard to say, but it does sound like the Chasm stock keeps risi

Is there really though any team that can one kill all in turn 0

Emma and may does how much damage. I think I'm around 50k. So I don't think your going to be able to one kill all (unless 550 may does insane damage like over 200k,,)

Cause I think I seen boosted 160 to 250k. Not counting juggie

Hell throw one star juggie accended to 5

Find a good support for him and wee headbutts for all

LavaManLee

A 550 Aunt May paired with Emma and with 30 AP does about 178k AOE. However, once that AP is gone, AM and Emma need to build up another 6 Red AP at minimum to do another decent attack. They are very slow if they don't finish off the team or come close to finishing them off.

KGB

@LavaManLee said:
Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

This is the only thing that matters.

On offense whether you win on turn 0 or turn 3 doesn't matter because the player taking the hit just sees a loss for X number of points. They don't care how it happened (turn 0 or turn 3) only that it happened.

The only thing players really are going to care about is enemy team supports. There is no way an enemy team with May/Emma can have 30 AP on turn 0 because there isn't boosts for the AI so at most they'll get a few AP in some colors which means eating an AOE but not one that can wipe you on the AI's first turn.

As I said many posts above. The biggest gripe is going to come from increased health pack usage, not actual losses. I bet the player loss rate barely increases but damage to characters will skyrocket due to extra firing of powers by the AI. What they should have done for this 1st season is auto-healed your team (or double the free health packs) if you won while the Devs and players evaluate how supports are working.

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@LavaManLee said:
Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

This is the only thing that matters.

On offense whether you win on turn 0 or turn 3 doesn't matter because the player taking the hit just sees a loss for X number of points. They don't care how it happened (turn 0 or turn 3) only that it happened.

The only thing players really are going to care about is enemy team supports. There is no way an enemy team with May/Emma can have 30 AP on turn 0 because there isn't boosts for the AI so at most they'll get a few AP in some colors which means eating an AOE but not one that can wipe you on the AI's first turn.

As I said many posts above. The biggest gripe is going to come from increased health pack usage, not actual losses. I bet the player loss rate barely increases but damage to characters will skyrocket due to extra firing of powers by the AI. What they should have done for this 1st season is auto-healed your team (or double the free health packs) if you won while the Devs and players evaluate how supports are working.

KGB

On offense, winning turn 0 absolutely matters, probably more than defense.

Yes, the player seeing my hit doesn't know how long exactly it took me, but when players shield hop, they're trying to spend a minimum amount of time unshielded. If I have a turn0 team and you don't, I can hit you probably 4-5 times on your hop, before you can do one fight.

This would actually be pretty great for me and players like me, but most of the players I'd like to fight will probably have turn0 teams, meaning they'll be able to do 4-5 fights on a hop before I can hit them once -- unless I also use a super fast turn0 team with tuned supports.

See what happens here? We're forced to use only the very fastest teams, otherwise we just lose. And the standard for "fast" just got multiplied by like 4-5x. Tons of teams and characters immediately stop being usable because they're too slow, even if they're fast in the current metagame.

slidecage

How does may Emma get 30 ap in turn 0

bluewolf

I also have to say this all reminds me of when the prior devs said we would all have to do wins only for PvP and people got mad and said “this is a terrible system” AFTER they did a test run in an off season.

And they stopped buy clubs.

And the devs backed off immediately and then they did the hybrid we have today.

A difference from back then is there really aren’t buy clubs running anymore because the offers on any given day are far better deals. So any organized protest is basically a nonstarter in a way that would make a difference to them.

DAZ0273

@bluewolf said:
I also have to say this all reminds me of when the prior devs said we would all have to do wins only for PvP and people got mad and said “this is a terrible system” AFTER they did a test run in an off season.

And they stopped buy clubs.

And the devs backed off immediately and then they did the hybrid we have today.

A difference from back then is there really aren’t buy clubs running anymore because the offers on any given day are far better deals. So any organized protest is basically a nonstarter in a way that would make a difference to them.

I mean it's an experiment. A terrible experiment that is feeding penguins to a wood chipper to see if that grows more penguins but they already said they can turn off the wood chipper. Maybe it will end up as the craziest PvP season for ages or maybe it will be like the Rotten Tomatoes score for The Acolyte. Either way a boycott over this would be childish and ludicrous.

Phumade

I was always amazed they allow the buyclub rev stream be managed outside the company. transtioning the revenue to official offers is just normal management process

bluewolf

@DAZ0273 said:

@bluewolf said:
I also have to say this all reminds me of when the prior devs said we would all have to do wins only for PvP and people got mad and said “this is a terrible system” AFTER they did a test run in an off season.

And they stopped buy clubs.

And the devs backed off immediately and then they did the hybrid we have today.

A difference from back then is there really aren’t buy clubs running anymore because the offers on any given day are far better deals. So any organized protest is basically a nonstarter in a way that would make a difference to them.

I mean it's an experiment. A terrible experiment that is feeding penguins to a wood chipper to see if that grows more penguins but they already said they can turn off the wood chipper. Maybe it will end up as the craziest PvP season for ages or maybe it will be like the Rotten Tomatoes score for The Acolyte. Either way a boycott over this would be childish and ludicrous.

Ha ha! True. I wasn't saying a boycott is a good thing and really what should happen is the devs should be trying to work with the players who have been playing the game for longer than they have been working on it to try to implement changes and improvements instead of barreling ahead with something that many are resisting.

Imagine if they said "We are planning to implement supports in PVP next season and which of these would you like to see?"

And you had options like "run it in the off season only" "Run it with just the supports in the current pool" "try it for one pvp during the season, and not one that rewards the new characters" etc.

Maybe they would have two or three questions. I dunno. It would feel a lot better than this does.

This game only exists because many people have been playing and spending for years and they aren't treating a user base that has a deep well of knowledge about it with much respect with the way this is proceeding.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@LavaManLee said:
Curious which defensive teams with which support will end up being the new meta. As we all know, the players are way better than the AI to have the right AP and fire the powers in the right order. So even though our team may be able to win at Turn 0, there will have to be a "dummy proof" defensive team with supports that will work out no matter how poorly the AI makes decisions.

This is the only thing that matters.

On offense whether you win on turn 0 or turn 3 doesn't matter because the player taking the hit just sees a loss for X number of points. They don't care how it happened (turn 0 or turn 3) only that it happened.

The only thing players really are going to care about is enemy team supports. There is no way an enemy team with May/Emma can have 30 AP on turn 0 because there isn't boosts for the AI so at most they'll get a few AP in some colors which means eating an AOE but not one that can wipe you on the AI's first turn.

As I said many posts above. The biggest gripe is going to come from increased health pack usage, not actual losses. I bet the player loss rate barely increases but damage to characters will skyrocket due to extra firing of powers by the AI. What they should have done for this 1st season is auto-healed your team (or double the free health packs) if you won while the Devs and players evaluate how supports are working.

KGB

On offense, winning turn 0 absolutely matters, probably more than defense.

Yes, the player seeing my hit doesn't know how long exactly it took me, but when players shield hop, they're trying to spend a minimum amount of time unshielded. If I have a turn0 team and you don't, I can hit you probably 4-5 times on your hop, before you can do one fight.

This would actually be pretty great for me and players like me, but most of the players I'd like to fight will probably have turn0 teams, meaning they'll be able to do 4-5 fights on a hop before I can hit them once -- unless I also use a super fast turn0 team with tuned supports.

See what happens here? We're forced to use only the very fastest teams, otherwise we just lose. And the standard for "fast" just got multiplied by like 4-5x. Tons of teams and characters immediately stop being usable because they're too slow, even if they're fast in the current metagame.

The issue you describe matters to probably less than 1% of the player base. Plus, at that level isn't everything already rigged anyway (ie shield check rooms, baking, not hitting certain other alliances) with regards to who gets to win events/seasons? For everyone else it doesn't. PvP also seems fine with everyone boosting tons of AP which also speeds up matches and does everything else in your argument. If AP boosts are fine why isn't a bit more AP boosts from supports fine?

The the question is do you throw out supports in PvP for <1% of the player base or do they have to adapt to the new normal that everyone else operates under just fine.

KGB

KGB

@slidecage said:
How does may Emma get 30 ap in turn 0

Boosts. +2 All = 12. +2 in 2 other colors gives 8 more for a total of +20.

Get +10 more from 3 Supports that give out starting AP.

KGB