***** Magik (Phoenix Five) *****

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

ArchusMonk

@Vhailorx said:

@dianetics said:
Is that Tod McFarlane? He’s really good and drawing terrible proportions. I’m confused because I don’t see any pockets and I see feet.

McFarlane or liefeld or one of those image guys. That gives me flashbacks to the 90 for sure. All that's missing is a beefy guy with muscles on muscles and pouches everywhere.

Although as you note the presence of visible feet is suspicious.

Liefeld was infamous for his inability to draw feet - so much so that it was referenced in Deadpool 2.

Vhailorx

@ArchusMonk said:

@Vhailorx said:

@dianetics said:
Is that Tod McFarlane? He’s really good and drawing terrible proportions. I’m confused because I don’t see any pockets and I see feet.

McFarlane or liefeld or one of those image guys. That gives me flashbacks to the 90 for sure. All that's missing is a beefy guy with muscles on muscles and pouches everywhere.

Although as you note the presence of visible feet is suspicious.

Liefeld was infamous for his inability to draw feet - so much so that it was referenced in Deadpool 2.

And equally infamous for the lengths he would go to in order to ensure that everyone's feet were obscured in everything he ever drew. Hence my note that the presence of feet in that image is the least 90s thing about it. . .

DAZ0273

@Borstock said:

@DAZ0273 said:
I don't see how she can be "too good" when she is countered before she debuted. But then again I don't like Ketchup on Hot Dogs so what do I know?

You monster.

Can we open up a nerf DAZ thread, please?

I deserve this.

entrailbucket

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)?

Tiger_Wong

Words can not express my disappointment at the nerf before I get to use her. They knew I had stuff cooking. With boosters I felt she had great potential. While everybody else was looking at her demons, I was looking at that perma-damage. 10k for 6 purple. That would’ve been money. And I’m pretty sure the red passive was gonna be like a 2-hit kinda like crystal.

I wish I never saw her previewed powerset. This really hurts my heart.

froggerjohn

It would have been wonderful to have another meta character that is capable of big, quick damage in the world of boosted 5s and CNs with hundreds of K in health pools. That's especially true for players that entered 5-land more recently, and maybe don't have a champed Shang yet.

There's nothing wrong with quick matches in a game that has a lot of repetition, especially in a case where there's no problem countering such a character in PvP.

This nerf is super disappointing. Even more so because even if she was unbalanced, hitting her hard enough to transform OP into 'unremarkable' is an overreaction that has historically been all too common.

Borstock

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

To be fair, every single nerf to a meta character that has ever happened has upset people who spent $ to acquire and max-out that meta. If Magik had an "out of control" meta that warranted her pancaking, I'm glad they did it before she was released, but I don't think that should be a factor in protecting Chasm. And I've almost totally backed off on my disdain for that character since the release of Hit-Monkey, Riri, and Kang.

I have a sneaking suspicion, based on just how far the pre-release "adjustments" went, that she's still more powerful than people think. I don't see it. She looks dead-dead to me. But I also think this conversation isn't over yet.

KGB

I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill.

I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own.

What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land.

KGB

entrailbucket

I don't see it either. The "permanent damage" gimmick is neat but it's only useful against healers/resurrectors, otherwise it's completely meaningless. Unfortified 2-turn repeaters are bad, even if they can be boosted. Her AOE is cheap, but again, Hulk's AOE can also be power-boosted, and 0ap compared to 6ap is no contest.

It's not that she's not good, it's that there are much better character choices for everything she does.

Vhailorx

@Tiger_Wong said:
Words can not express my disappointment at the nerf before I get to use her. They knew I had stuff cooking. With boosters I felt she had great potential. While everybody else was looking at her demons, I was looking at that perma-damage. 10k for 6 purple. That would’ve been money. And I’m pretty sure the red passive was gonna be like a 2-hit kinda like crystal.

I wish I never saw her previewed powerset. This really hurts my heart.

I agree. I was interested to see how someone with her pre-nerf level of perma damage played in the current sandbox. that was more interested to me than her black, which seemed likely to be annoying but manageable in the hands of the ai.

Vhailorx

@Borstock said:

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

To be fair, every single nerf to a meta character that has ever happened has upset people who spent $ to acquire and max-out that meta. If Magik had an "out of control" meta that warranted her pancaking, I'm glad they did it before she was released, but I don't think that should be a factor in protecting Chasm. And I've almost totally backed off on my disdain for that character since the release of Hit-Monkey, Riri, and Kang.

I have a sneaking suspicion, based on just how far the pre-release "adjustments" went, that she's still more powerful than people think. I don't see it. She looks dead-dead to me. But I also think this conversation isn't over yet.

Every previous nerf of a meta character upset the player base. and every previous nerf of a meta character was also done by demi, which gives BCS a little distance from those previous actions. nerfing chasm, especially now after he has been around and worthy of investment for many months, would be painful and BCS would own it completely. That IS definitely a factor in the chasm discussion. ymmv on whether that's determinative.

I agree that she may be better than people think even post-nerf. That seems to have been the case with fosthor.

Bowgentle

I mean, BCS designed Chasm.
How hard can it be to admit that they made him too strong.

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)?

It's easier to make changes pre-release because there is no player investment to destroy. Maybe BCS has learned because of the chasm experience that it's better to nerf pre-release and then buff post-launch if necessary than to send someone out hot and find themselves in another catch-22 where one character causes a ton of player uproar, but nerfing that character would only lead to even more player frustration (e.g. the scenario they are in with chasm).

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:
I mean, BCS designed Chasm.
How hard can it be to admit that they made him too strong.

It's like the I Think You Should Leave sketch with Tim Robinson in the hot dog suit, saying "we're all trying to find the guy who did this!"

Punisher5784

Oooooo.. materia for the next "Meeting" post! Y'all are making this too easy again

I still think 5* and 3* should switch. I want that 3* Magik as a 5*

entrailbucket

@KGB said:
I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill.

I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own.

What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land.

KGB

So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang?

The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard?

Vhailorx

@Bowgentle said:
I mean, BCS designed Chasm.
How hard can it be to admit that they made him too strong.

Admitting he is too strong (if that's even true. I'm not weighing in on that particular element of the discussion) is pretty easy.

Admitting that he released too strong, that BCS suspected it all along, did nothing at launch, made tons of $ from people chasing him, and THEN nerfed him when the spending started to die down? That's a lot harder (especially after the exact same thing happened with gambit)

Borstock

@Vhailorx said:

@Borstock said:

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

To be fair, every single nerf to a meta character that has ever happened has upset people who spent $ to acquire and max-out that meta. If Magik had an "out of control" meta that warranted her pancaking, I'm glad they did it before she was released, but I don't think that should be a factor in protecting Chasm. And I've almost totally backed off on my disdain for that character since the release of Hit-Monkey, Riri, and Kang.

I have a sneaking suspicion, based on just how far the pre-release "adjustments" went, that she's still more powerful than people think. I don't see it. She looks dead-dead to me. But I also think this conversation isn't over yet.

Every previous nerf of a meta character upset the player base. and every previous nerf of a meta character was also done by demi, which gives BCS a little distance from those previous actions. nerfing chasm, especially now after he has been around and worthy of investment for many months, would be painful and BCS would own it completely.

I wasn't talking about just this game. I'm talking about every game that has ever been released by any developer where a meta could be acquired by spending.

entrailbucket

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"

You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?

Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)?

It's easier to make changes pre-release because there is no player investment to destroy. Maybe BCS has learned because of the chasm experience that it's better to nerf pre-release and then buff post-launch if necessary than to send someone out hot and find themselves in another catch-22 where one character causes a ton of player uproar, but nerfing that character would only lead to even more player frustration (e.g. the scenario they are in with chasm).

I agree with all of this. A bunch of players would lose their minds, start threatening violence, etc etc if they change Chasm now.

Given that, why didn't they nerf Kang pre-release, since he was released just a few weeks ago and is way more powerful than Magik? Did they just come to this realization today?