@entrailbucket said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!" You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground? Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)? It's easier to make changes pre-release because there is no player investment to destroy. Maybe BCS has learned because of the chasm experience that it's better to nerf pre-release and then buff post-launch if necessary than to send someone out hot and find themselves in another catch-22 where one character causes a ton of player uproar, but nerfing that character would only lead to even more player frustration (e.g. the scenario they are in with chasm). I agree with all of this. A bunch of players would lose their minds, start threatening violence, etc etc if they change Chasm now. Given that, why didn't they nerf Kang pre-release, since he was released just a few weeks ago and is way more powerful than Magik? Did they just come to this realization today?
@entrailbucket said:
@Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!" You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground? Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)? It's easier to make changes pre-release because there is no player investment to destroy. Maybe BCS has learned because of the chasm experience that it's better to nerf pre-release and then buff post-launch if necessary than to send someone out hot and find themselves in another catch-22 where one character causes a ton of player uproar, but nerfing that character would only lead to even more player frustration (e.g. the scenario they are in with chasm).
@Vhailorx said:
@entrailbucket said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!" You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground? Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)?
@Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!" You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?
@entrailbucket said: I just don't understand how they could look at a guy who's completely immortal, who steals the player's first turn advantage, drains all your AP, has a massive match damage boost and a huge passive, and say "oh that's fine," but look at Magik's unfortified 2-turn repeaters and go "hey slow down there, crazy!"
You are overlooking a whole pile of extrinsic factors. For example: how much $ have people spent building Chasms and what will those people do if he is nerfed into the ground?
Ok, that might be a reason (a bad reason, imo) for not nerfing Chasm now (after release), but Magik was changed before release. Why did this happen to Magik but didn't happen to Chasm (or Thor, or Kang)?
It's easier to make changes pre-release because there is no player investment to destroy. Maybe BCS has learned because of the chasm experience that it's better to nerf pre-release and then buff post-launch if necessary than to send someone out hot and find themselves in another catch-22 where one character causes a ton of player uproar, but nerfing that character would only lead to even more player frustration (e.g. the scenario they are in with chasm).
I agree with all of this. A bunch of players would lose their minds, start threatening violence, etc etc if they change Chasm now.
Given that, why didn't they nerf Kang pre-release, since he was released just a few weeks ago and is way more powerful than Magik? Did they just come to this realization today?
The average MPQ player doesn't strike me as being Chuck Norris so the "threatening violence" angle makes me chuckle a little. What are they going do, send the Devs an angry spreadsheet?
So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard?
So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang?
The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard?
This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27 (not even with a double cast).
I haven't done the math, but assuming that pre-nerf magik could match demon tiles twice and then be doing 50-60k damage per turn by round 3 that might actually be effectively faster than Kang+IM40.
@Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard? This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27 (not even with a double cast). I haven't done the math, but assuming that pre-nerf magik could match demon tiles twice and then be doing 50-60k damage per turn by round 3 that might actually be effectively faster than Kang+IM40.
You cast iron man yellow on turn 1 and send everyone away at the start of turn 3. What countdown extending passive? Have you even tried the team?
@Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard? This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27. I haven't done the math, but assuming that pre-nerf magik could match demon tiles twice and then be doing 50-60k damage per turn by round 3 that might actually be effectively faster than Kang+IM40.
This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27.
50-60k damage per turn is nothing. Folks are trivially, passively, doing WAY more than that in PvE right now. How do you think they're opening CL10 in 12 minutes or whatever?
Again, if they think Magik was too good, that's fine. That means about 6-8 other guys are also too good. What are they going to do about them? Is the standard "no new overpowered characters, but all the old overpowered characters can stay that way forever?" What does THAT do to the game?
@Vhailorx said: @Bowgentle said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard? This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27 (not even with a double cast). I haven't done the math, but assuming that pre-nerf magik could match demon tiles twice and then be doing 50-60k damage per turn by round 3 that might actually be effectively faster than Kang+IM40. You cast iron man yellow on turn 1 and send everyone away at the start of turn 3. What countdown extending passive? Have you even tried the team? Have you? Kang's purple (3* and 5*) passively adds 1 turn to every CD placed on the board. One can certainly run a dupe that doesn't have purple. But then we are talking about running a crippled, dupe character for speed, which basically rules the strategy out for competitive pvp. And the speed advantage in PVE is pretty marginal over the existing meta speed teams like hulkoye with a big okoye. And if a single cast of IM40 is enough to proc kang's blue, then you are also using HE, which (1) was part of my hypothetical since entrail only named kang + im40, and (2) means we are talking about pick3 play, which further limits the utility of the team to just 4 PVE nodes per sub and shield sim.
@Bowgentle said: @Vhailorx said: @entrailbucket said: So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard? This seems like a real overstatement of Kang + IM40's potential. Yes, 27 blue ap + kang is an instant win. But getting 27 ap is still a bit time-consuming with that team. There is no support to kickstart blue. and even if you kickstart yellow for IM40, you still need 3 turns (thanks to Kang's CD-extending passive) and some board luck to proc all the tiles. and even that doesn't get you all the way to 27 (not even with a double cast). I haven't done the math, but assuming that pre-nerf magik could match demon tiles twice and then be doing 50-60k damage per turn by round 3 that might actually be effectively faster than Kang+IM40. You cast iron man yellow on turn 1 and send everyone away at the start of turn 3. What countdown extending passive? Have you even tried the team?
@Bowgentle said:
Have you? Kang's purple (3* and 5*) passively adds 1 turn to every CD placed on the board. One can certainly run a dupe that doesn't have purple. But then we are talking about running a crippled, dupe character for speed, which basically rules the strategy out for competitive pvp. And the speed advantage in PVE is pretty marginal over the existing meta speed teams like hulkoye with a big okoye.
And if a single cast of IM40 is enough to proc kang's blue, then you are also using HE, which (1) was part of my hypothetical since entrail only named kang + im40, and (2) means we are talking about pick3 play, which further limits the utility of the team to just 4 PVE nodes per sub and shield sim.
I still don't see the adding to every CD tile. He's adding to enemy CD tiles. Adding to all CDs is his purple active. And of course he's only used on 4 PVE nodes, he's useless for pick 2.
Interesting. Wonder how many people would have pulled for more Riri if they knew this Magik nerf was coming. There was no chance to change your mind.
I'm a bit angry... Give me a reason to spend money on a character nerfed to the ground with so low numbers damage ? I see plenty team with Ms Thor and Chasm that ripped off my teams so today i use the button skip because i'm so bored to fight them.
Doesn't appear she'll have a big presence in PVP. Especially how everyone seems to have Mthor, Chasm, and others. Even if her black wasn't nerfed Mthor would still keep her in check and so would Chasm as far as AP and first turn denial.
In PVE she may prove to be somewhat enjoyable but I think she's all that great now that I'd replace anyone on my core go to teams. Hope she wasn't nerfed mainly because she can slice through challenge nodes too quickly. Okoye/Ihulk and the revive teams, BC has no issues cheesing through S10 nodes with those types.
I agree with what others have alluded to. BC needs to decide if they want any balance among characters, or certain ones for some reason or another are allowed to be privileged meta beasts while others are almost obsolete prior to arrival. Nothing more of a joy kill than a new 5* on their way that many won't be using unless it's their buff week.
@entrailbucket said: @KGB said: I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill. I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own. What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land. KGB So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard?
@KGB said: I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill. I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own. What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land. KGB
@KGB said: I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill.
I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own.
What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land.
KGB
I think the standard is standalone vs team mate synergy. As in it's OK for team mate synergy (the immortal bros) to create crazy combos but not OK in standalone which she would have been.
@entrailbucket said: 50-60k damage per turn is nothing. Folks are trivially, passively, doing WAY more than that in PvE right now. How do you think they're opening CL10 in 12 minutes or whatever? Again, if they think Magik was too good, that's fine. That means about 6-8 other guys are also too good. What are they going to do about them? Is the standard "no new overpowered characters, but all the old overpowered characters can stay that way forever?" What does THAT do to the game?
@entrailbucket said: 50-60k damage per turn is nothing. Folks are trivially, passively, doing WAY more than that in PvE right now. How do you think they're opening CL10 in 12 minutes or whatever?
With 550's or 450s? She was looking at doing that at 450. One can only imagine what it would be at 550. And again the requirement was going to be just her and no other team mate, support etc.
@KGB said: @entrailbucket said: @KGB said: I suspect she was nerfed because of PvE and not because of PvP. Her demons are unstoppable against goons and even nodes with just 1 tile mover and 2 goons would be roadkill. I'm fully aware there are damage boost teams that do more just as fast but those require multiple character interactions. She was capable of 60K a turn or more all on her own. What's most disappointing is that the 3* version of her is what we really need in the 5* character (the huge match damage, crit tile creation when AP stolen/destroyed, permanent damage on Red etc) since those are what's needed as counters in 5* land, not 3* land. KGB So, like, ok, but Kang oneshots every PvE fight with im40. If Magik is too good in PvE what does that say about Kang? The problem is not that they nerfed Magik, the problem is that they nerfed Magik but released all these other guys that are way more powerful. What is the standard? I think the standard is standalone vs team mate synergy. As in it's OK for team mate synergy (the immortal bros) to create crazy combos but not OK in standalone which she would have been. KGB
@KGB said:
The post from ice actually called out that she was too good when paired with power boosters.
She would had been supposedly so good everytime no one stuns her right from start battle. They are obstinately releasing characters doing this like wong and her. If she can't spawn 2 initial repeaters she will be really slow. Also they are 2 turns repeaters. Not always there will be great damage. Her extra % damage on matching could be good, but colossus deals more damage. And if emma boosts her a lot, great! Finally emma has someone to boost (I don't see really much emma and cyclops). So her repeaters were the main reason to run her. If now they are meh, the character is meh. With all that % nerf, probably she will need to have 10 repeaters in order to do something.
Reply from dev in reddit:
"The official announcements that you see are generated in advance because they have to go through a round of approvals, which means there is significant lead time up to release.
During that time, testing is ongoing. MPQ has a vast roster and there is always more to be discovered through play. As testing went on, we were seeing win percentages from Magik that were simply too high. As it stands she's still in top-contender territory (I know that seeing big reduction percentages like 50% look aggressive, but seriously her numbers were nuts before this).
Being vocal and sharing up-to-date info on things is something we want to keep doing. If we feel that the game and our players will benefit from some pivots we'll make them, but we'll certainly endeavor minimize that delta wherever we can."
MPQ has a vast roster and there is always more to be discovered through play.>
Lol! "In extensive play testing we found that Magik defeated Abigail Brand, Captain America (First Avenger) and Star-Lord in 100% of all scenarios, this was too dangerous to be able to release without extensive alterations!"
They probably don't have data on Chasm because the simulation got stuck in an endless loop in a mirror match. The first match from October is still going.
Speaking of Abigail Brand, the only thing I could guess is that there is a passive or bulk-active repeater shortening character coming that would make her do something quickly she won't otherwise be doing now.
We all used to think the previous dev team over-valued board shake, and I would say that both teams seem a little afraid of permanent damage - everyone who can do it is laughably undertuned, which is a shame, because it really is only a factor vs revivers. No other healer, passive or active, is healing to an extent that you can't outpace it with most normal teams except hulk and chasm.
Crystal is pretty good at outpacing match damage for many turns. Once abilities start flying its a different story. But, if you happen to get a cascade you could potentially refill Crystal team. She is the only healer that I've noticed that got slowed down by permanent damage, but that is because she does such a good job of keeping teams topped up.
Could be, i don't really see her very often. And it hasn't been the case for me when I try to run her.
@ThaRoadWarrior said: Speaking of Abigail Brand, the only thing I could guess is that there is a passive or bulk-active repeater shortening character coming that would make her do something quickly she won't otherwise be doing now. We all used to think the previous dev team over-valued board shake, and I would say that both teams seem a little afraid of permanent damage - everyone who can do it is laughably undertuned, which is a shame, because it really is only a factor vs revivers. No other healer, passive or active, is healing to an extent that you can't outpace it with most normal teams except hulk and chasm.
@ThaRoadWarrior said: Speaking of Abigail Brand, the only thing I could guess is that there is a passive or bulk-active repeater shortening character coming that would make her do something quickly she won't otherwise be doing now.
It's like the characters with "damage cannot be prevented" on their abilities (Gamora and Ultron, unless I'm missing anyone). Permanent damage is basically the same as "damage cannot be prevented" -- it's useful only against certain characters and completely irrelevant/worthless otherwise. Yet both modifiers are tuned as if the devs think they're incredibly powerful. It's weird.
If you want an ability to be a counter, it needs to mirror the ability it's countering. A character who prevents damage passively can only be countered by a character who blocks damage prevention passively. A character who heals an infinite amount passively can only be countered by a character who does permanent damage passively.
The big “problem” is that we were shown what could’ve been and had it snatched away before we could get our hands on it and given an inferior model. THATS the big “problem”. Not these stupid over -generalizations you guys keep trying to bring up over and over about characters and powers that are already here and aren’t solving every single one of your perceived problems passively.
Solution: don’t show the new characters powerset until they’ve been released. No more previews. Ph5 Emma was nerfed. Both Magiks have been nerfed. Kang simply wasn’t ready as he broke a bunch of things in the game on release and so did chasm. Just do away with the previews altogether. It’s better that we don’t know what we don’t know.