***** Wong (Sorcerer Supreme) *****

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  • Timemachinego
    Timemachinego Posts: 465 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2023
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    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    So...Wong.

    Anyone has a decently-covered Wong and tried him out yet? Any good partners?

    Have we confirmed if his "away" will trigger friendly "last one standing" type transformations (like Cyclops)? Might be a way to go with him, assuming you can get the third member KO'd quickly.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023
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    *mod note. I split out the Chasm discussion. If you would like to continue that discussion please find it here. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/88054/i-can-t-believe-it-s-not-a-chasm-nerf-thread

  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,034 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Timemachinego said:

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    So...Wong.

    Anyone has a decently-covered Wong and tried him out yet? Any good partners?

    Have we confirmed if his "away" will trigger friendly "last one standing" type transformations (like Cyclops)? Might be a way to go with him, assuming you can get the third member KO'd quickly.

    It does not trigger 5yclops passive, despite it saying “…. If cyclops has no active teammates……” I downed a character so it was cyclops and Wong left.

    I sent Wong went “away”.
    Cyclops continued being Savior of Mutantkind.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,482 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Tiger_Wong said:
    It does not trigger 5yclops passive, despite it saying “…. If cyclops has no active teammates……” I downed a character so it was cyclops and Wong left.

    I sent Wong went “away”.
    Cyclops continued being Savior of Mutantkind.

    Submit it as a bug. To get the right eyeballs on it.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @dianetics said:

    @Tiger_Wong said:
    It does not trigger 5yclops passive, despite it saying “…. If cyclops has no active teammates……” I downed a character so it was cyclops and Wong left.

    I sent Wong went “away”.
    Cyclops continued being Savior of Mutantkind.

    Submit it as a bug. To get the right eyeballs on it.

    You mean the right eyeball, yes?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,103 Chairperson of the Boards
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    What is the left eyeball looking at?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023
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    Defensive/support characters always have uses in the future against meta.

    Electro, Elektra, Crystal are good examples. Look at their threads and you'll understand why. Who would've expect these three are part of teams to counter Chasm/iHulk.

    Miss champing Wong and you make the wrong choice.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Also a character with affiliations effects doubles the potential.
    Right now there is only one supernatural viable on pvp, HM (if you never use ghostpool), and using him only enables HM bonus for non villains.
    But in the future 100% sure another supernatural will come.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    Defensive/support characters always have uses in the future against meta.

    Electro, Elektra, Crystal are good examples. Look at their threads and you'll understand why. Who would've expect these three are part of teams to counter Chasm/iHulk.

    Miss champing Wong and you make the wrong choice.

    Only partially; you must consider opportunity costs. All other things being equal, it's true that champing everyone is ideal. But that doesnt change the fact that some 5*s are more useful tuan others. Champing 5torn in a vacuum is good. She has some uses. But as I recall it was storm>Prof $>carbage>brb, or something like that. And going hard for storm would be a bad outcome if doing so cost you the chance at brb.

    Wong to me seems in the storm tier. He has some uses and there will likely be some viable teams that rely on his unique kit in the future. But he doesn't seem nearly as valuable as Kang or fosthor to name a few recent releases.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,103 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Wong will be pretty good when boosted -- some of those numbers will get crazy with +100 levels. I wouldn't want to miss him, if only for those two weeks a year or whatever.

    He'll be completely useless otherwise though.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023
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    Both Kang and mThor are considered offensive characters while Wong is hardly an offensive character. If I were to convert them into typical RPG classes, Kang would likely be a black mage, mThor a berserker/fighter and Wong a druid. While there can be powerful druids in some games, but typically, black mage or fighter class are more popular and powerful than druid. Druid is a jack of all trade where it does many things: heal, support, summon etc.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,103 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Roleplaying games have deep combat systems that require strategy and coordination to defeat difficult enemies, piloted by an intelligent AI. You just said that the MPQ AI is very stupid and that players should be able to win matches easily with any strategy.

    Why would you choose a "druid" when you can bring 3 fighters and win easily every time? MPQ fights simply aren't that deep. I'll bring Wong when he's boosted and his powers are hitting for 30,000 damage and he's creating 10k in strikes, but otherwise he's useless -- just like 95% of the 5* tier.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    Both Kang and mThor are considered offensive characters while Wong is hardly an offensive character. If I were to convert them into typical RPG classes, Kang would likely be a black mage, mThor a berserker/fighter and Wong a druid. While there can be powerful druids in some games, but typically, black mage or fighter class are more popular and powerful than druid. Druid is a jack of all trade where it does many things: heal, support, summon etc.

    I think you are crossing traditional ttrpg classes with jrpg classes. Ain't no black/white mages in d&d outside of Dragonlance (and that's not what you want at all)

    /off topic quibbling

    Kang seems like more of a support hybrid with offense to me. His health is standard for new releases, but his match damage is the lowest in a while. And while he does have a hard hitting nuke, his kit is mostly built around utility passives (ap generation and restoration, enemy disables, etc). He seems like a 4* gamora style support to me: a utility characrer that also has a win-condition passive that lets him dabble as a pocket offense character.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    That's why if players want to go all out on offense, then Wong is not the right choice. However, if players want an extra tool that can help them deal with future meta, Wong is a good choice. When you use meta against meta (or mirror match), hardly anything good happens: iHulkoye, Wanda/Colossus, Chasm/iHulk etc.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Like I said, defensive/support characters have uses against meta in the future. I used example like Electro, Elektra and Crystal. Likewise, I classify Wong as Support/Defensive because of his yellow and purple. Yellow is obviously support ability (strike/protect/team true heal/ap steal and gain), while red is a situational offense ability. His purple is a mix of both (Away ability that makes him immune to damage and then summons that are 50% support 50% offense). If you classify him as Offense, then that's your classication.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,927 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    Like I said, defensive/support characters have uses against meta in the future. I used example like Electro, Elektra and Crystal. Likewise, I classify Wong as Support/Defensive because of his yellow and purple. Yellow is obviously support ability (strike/protect/team true heal/ap steal and gain), while red is a situational offense ability. His purple is a mix of both (Away ability that makes him immune to damage and then summons that are 50% support 50% offense). If you classify him as Offense, then that's your classication.

    I’m asking specifically what kind of meta character would Wong counter? Like if you could design a character right now where Wong would specifically be the best tool available to deal with them, what would that character even look like. Because aside from leaving for a few turns, he doesn’t seem all that unique.

    Elektro and Elektra were INSTANTLY heralded for their yellow abilities. If they “snuck up” on you, you weren’t really paying attention because those were clearly THE reason to play those characters and it was known from the jump. Elektro was a very clearly designed to be an iHulk counter. Crystal I loved for her utility (similar to how I love Wong) but I’ve seen her more often used as an annoying third WITH metas in sim (must kill first) than I have on many counter teams. Especially not in pick 2.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023
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    It's based on induction of how characters with defensive/support ends up being useful against meta of the future.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,927 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @HoundofShadow said:
    It's based on induction of how characters with defensive/support ends up being useful against meta of the future.

    Okay, so you can’t even dream up a character that Wong would be a counter for? If your stance is defensive/support characters are good against meta, then we have plenty of defensive/support characters already in the game. Along with the ones you mentioned there is Odin, Switch, Abby, Heimdall, Iceman, Yelena, Sersi, etc. and that is just off the top of my head. Your stance is like saying “don’t regret missing out on Havok, because big damage characters are really great”. While true, we have plenty of big damage characters in the game. So you ask yourself is this character bringing something to the table that is unique enough that you would pick them over the other characters in their “class“. You have not answered that question, and just stated, this class is good. If I have every other character in said class, is this one really needed? I champ everyone anyway (Wong is a cover away), so it is moot for me. But a fair question for those who don’t champ everyone to ask is this person worth it? And, what makes them unique enough to chase that they are the best option in a situation (I do believe he is good enough to be the best option in a given boost week, but I don’t see it outside of that). I want to be wrong, which is why I’m asking the question.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    You just don't know the divine plan.
    Didn't you know the omnipotent devs have a multi-year plan for the next 12 metas all lined up?

    So, um, Wong, yeah.
    I like him. I haven't used him once since I champed him, but yeah.