The ChaHulk meta

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @HoundofShadow said:
    ... There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good >enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements...

    I see you make the "higher, more stringent requirements" remark alot, and I'm not sure it's really warranted. I'd personally like a counter that works, and by works I mean not scraping by some of the time, and only by luck and the skin of its teeth when it does. I don't think a mirror match is a "counter" personally.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    I'm just pointing out things that I've seen over the years. An effective counter is only considered a counter if it fits that player's definition of what effective means. For example, some prefer counters that shut down the other teams almost immediately. For example, Wanda shutting down iHulkoye. Before that, we had BRB/Kitty but they were too slow.

    For others, an effective counter to a meta must also deter opponents from attacking them. Then, we have those who wants counter that doesn't cause them to use healthpacks each match. Also, we have those expect matches to be finished within 1-1.5 minutes.

    As you can see, some requirements are pretty stringent or difficult to accomplished, depending on who the meta is. If it doesn't pass their requirements, they are not considered a counter. So, they would rather pay skip tax, lower their expectations or ask for nerfs.

    As far as Chasm/iHulk is concerned, it's a given you'll take damage and eat some healthpacks, depending on the counters you bring along. Let's lay this out rationally:

    At the start of the game, chances are your entire team get stunned, you're likely to eat 5500 AoE, 2k from iHulk's tile destruction, 6-7k from Chasm's match damage and another 10k target damage from Chasm's passive damage. Whoever is in the middle will eat a minimum of 24k damage. This is for baby champed MMR.

    Unless you bring someone with true heal or damage reduction, you'll be using 2-3 healthpacks each match. Secondly, being aware of Chasm build will help you make better choices. A 5/3/5 means he needs 4 Chasm tiles, instead of 3 to revive. 3/5/5 means he put one Chasm tile and destroys 2 aps, instead of putting 2 and destroying 2 or 3 aps. Also, the level difference between iHulk and Chasm will also make some differences in your strategy.

    For counters, each set of counter has their strengths and weaknesses.

    As far as luck is concerned, it happens all the time. For example, SC is glass cannon. There are times where I still lose to him due to him getting lucky cascades. If you are targeting Chasm/iHulk with counters, there are times I still lose due to them getting lucky cascades.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    The pick-2 “counters” I’ve seen proposed only win some of the time, and by the skin of their teeth. The criteria for a counter is really just “wins more than they lose, ideally can do it fast enough that you can come out ahead on points in PVP rather than so slow you come out behind, and it needs to work above 900pts not just below.”

    Losing because you are unlucky is fine; but winning because you are lucky is not a real counter.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    Based on what the dev said, the playerbase are divided between Chasm. This is fact. Nerfing Chasm will make one group happy and the other group unhappy. On the other hand, not nerfing Chasm will have the opposite effect. That's why counter play is always the best solution.

    On one side, we have players who

    1) find him fun
    2) have adapted to his playstyle
    3) have found counters to that team

    On the other side, we have players who

    1) find him not fun to play with
    2) not fun to play against
    3) want variety in pvps

    In the last one or two pvps, I still see Ronan/Sersi or Ronan and other variations. Personally, I rather face Chasm/iHulk than Ronan/Sersi. And that's what I did: skipping Ronan/Sersi and aim for Chasm/iHulk instead.

    One thing I find strange is that Chasm/iHulk provide strong deterrent, which means you've an easier time to climb to 1200 in slice 1, as proven by players who don't seem to like Chasm/iHulk meta. The positive side of this is that it's also easier to climb pvps to 1200 due to their high points. As far as pvps is concerned, I'm a practical person. If winning 60-70 points from Chasm/iHulk helps me to hit 1200, I'm fine with it. I've tried using Chasm/iHulk to climb and they are good deterrent. However, I still get beaten by Ronan and his teammates. Even though Chasm/iHulk is a good deterrent, it didn't stop me from using Ronan or Sersi to climb.

    As for counters that win by skin of their teeth, I wonder if you could give examples of that? Do you mean winning the match with only <10,000 hp left or <5000 hp left?

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    I think people know the problem. Rather than git gud they appear to be operating under the assumption that nerfing or effective counters before rotating out hasn’t happened before and there is no reason to expect it this time. I expect that once the revive mechanic is effectively countered the meta will go back to changing weekly.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

    There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

    There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

    Stop being ungrateful!
    I'm sure all counters work wonderfully!
    For one match, at 900, after which you come out to -300, needing two health packs, and have to start again.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @Bowgentle said:

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

    There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

    Stop being ungrateful!
    I'm sure all counters work wonderfully!
    For one match, at 900, after which you come out to -300, needing two health packs, and have to start again.

    Once an actual, non-mirror match counter exists, those slow mirror matches won't be viable anymore. The only reason it's working now is because people are still afraid to target a Chasm/Hulk team as evidenced anecdotally by Daredevil's push to 1200 unshielded.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    3/4 loaner dying is a guarantee. The math has already proven that. If you are using loaner, their dying before you make your first match is a norm, unless it's a 5* pvp. I don't think there is any non-5* loaner with more than 24k hp.

    Colossus/Wanda works and you don't take a lot of damage. Both will still be alive with over 50% hp. I've tested against ~470 Chasm, and mine is only low 45x.

  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 2,000 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

    There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

    I was actually just thinking that thematically Thanos would be the perfect counter. I don't see the Mad Titan being too pleased about this pair escaping his beloved's cold embrace. And as you astutely surmised, his skill set is just a couple notches below what is needed to restore balance to the MPQ universe.

    If they updated his numbers to the current generation, dropped his purple cost to 6, upped its match damage boost to 130% and probably most importantly increased the damage dealt by Court of Death by an extra 10K or so, you could pair him with Colossus or a good boosted character and have a fairly effective counter.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    3/4 loaner dying is a guarantee. The math has already proven that. If you are using loaner, their dying before you make your first match is a norm, unless it's a 5* pvp. I don't think there is any non-5* loaner with more than 24k hp.

    Colossus/Wanda works and you don't take a lot of damage. Both will still be alive with over 50% hp. I've tested against ~470 Chasm, and mine is only low 45x.

    It works below 900pts based on the levels you mentioned. Try pushing to full 1200pt progression and check back with us.

  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards

    My issue with the Chasm-Ihulk meta is that it is difficult to win with any booster duo.

    During SW-Colossus meta, they were rampant, yes, but you could take them down with any boosted duo. Not so with chasm-Ihulk. If the boosted 5* list do not have any AOE specialist, it is just too difficult to take down them together. Then they go into this immortal cycle, and you watch helplessly as they slowly whittle you down.

    That’s my main problem with this meta.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    Been there, done that. I always hit 1200 in pvps, unless I play in the last 1-3 hours where I get hit repeatedly regardless of whether Chasm exists or not. I use other counters I mentioned as well. I've beaten 5xx-550 Chasm and 46x-47x iHulk with Dr Thor and Iceman multiple times already.

    Here's three videos of Dr Thor and Iceman in action

    Vs baby champed Chasm
    https://streamable.com/vlzsb7

    Vs ~500 Chasm
    https://streamable.com/mrs4a8

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards

    Iceman and Jane is one of the better options to be sure. Still isn't hyper quick, and in my experience not hyper reliable, but it's usable. How big was that hulk, do you recall? seemed like there was a big chasm but a small hulk, having only 40k hit points. the ones I see are usually more closely matched in level.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 585 Critical Contributor

    There's nothing particularly bad about Chasm. Paured with anyone he's a good opponent, annoying defensively and can cause some damage. He's only broke really when paired with Hulk. If the revive thing were to somehow be negated when paired with another revive character, then I think all the combining would go away and the people who dropped for a big Chasm will still have that strong character on their rosters without feeling cheated

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards

    I really don't want to see a chasm nerf, and I'm interested to try out this super low power-cost Riri to see if it is a viable counter, I just think we need some tools. Panthos would be a great counter-meta if they were both buffed soonish.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    edited November 2022

    Nerfing/countering the revive won't fix the bigger problem with Chasm, which is a passive targeted AP drain. I can't stress this enough - Gambit at one point was considered a menace because of his AP drain, and it was only 1 AP being snatched in a random color. Chasm quite effectively makes matches without either casades or match-4/5s useless.

  • slow
    slow Posts: 18 Just Dropped In

    I think if Chasm don't fully shut off BRB's Yellow passive & let him create the initial protect tiles(back from stunned). Kitty will buff them etc. then the game might be balanced a little bit again.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 585 Critical Contributor

    @allen_koholic said:
    Nerfing/countering the revive won't fix the bigger problem with Chasm, which is a passive targeted AP drain. I can't stress this enough - Gambit at one point was considered a menace because of his AP drain, and it was only 1 AP being snatched in a random color. Chasm quite effectively makes matches without either casades or match-4/5s useless.

    The AP drain isnt the bigger problem..
    it doesn't bother me at all. I think it's a fair ability for someone without any active powers. And its easily manageable. The revive isn't even a big deal...unless paired with Hulk.

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