The ChaHulk meta

acescracked

@Borstock said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@BriMan2222 said:
Maybe before mega 5 star boosts, but I almost never saw wanda/collosus in pvp unless the boost list for the week was really bad.

@Borstock said:
Once they introduced the 5* boosteds, there was no meta where you could just leave the team out and expect to not get hit. Not ColWanda, not anyone. The only players who could do that were the 550 whales and even they couldn't do it if the boosted list was strong enough. So, that's just incorrect.

Shhh… we don’t talk about the time it was actually diverse and a large majority of peoples’ rosters were being used. It was always like this and will always be like this!

Chasm has absolutely DESTROYED the diversity in PvP. You hit 800, ChaHulk is all you see. If you DARE to try to climb with any other team, you are instantly attacked by anyone and everyone looking for something else to hit besides a ChaHulk team. And you stand out, because no one is using anything else.

But hey, the 550's in this thread really don't want Chasm nerfed, so they're going to give you all the reasons why "everything's fine" and "this is just the next meta". But this is, BY FAR, the strongest meta this game has ever had, and it was introduced at a time when there was actual diversity in the game.

Since I don't have 550's my opinion that this is another meta has no merit?

100% chasm/ihulk is harder to hit than colossus/Wanda.

However, same thing happened when colossus/Wanda was the A team it was run (at least on final climb) over all the lower B team boosted characters.

If the boosted characters are good then they are run. Just as all the Qs were mthor/colossus last bunch of PvP.

We get the same Qs. It's just chasm is a harder team so you've forgotten what Qs were like before the Chasm.

HoundofShadow

Every year, we have a couple new flavours that players want nerfed.

2018: Gambit
2019: Bishop / WorthyCap
2020: Hulkokoye ; Britty
2021: Wanda/Colossus

As history has proven, we've weathered through all these meta without those 5* being nerfed since 2020.

The flavour of 2022 happens to be Hulk/Chasm. There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements.

Come mid 2023, we'll have another new nerf thread, probably targeted at Dr Thor and her new partner, after Chasm/Hulk are countered "effectively".

Glockoma

@HoundofShadow said:
Every year, we have a couple new flavours that players want nerfed.

2018: Gambit
2019: Bishop / WorthyCap
2020: Hulkokoye ; Britty
2021: Wanda/Colossus

As history has proven, we've weathered through all these meta without those 5* being nerfed since 2020.

The flavour of 2022 happens to be Hulk/Chasm. There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements.

Come mid 2023, we'll have another new nerf thread, probably targeted at Dr Thor and her new partner, after Chasm/Hulk are countered "effectively".

My thoughts exactly. That and I just walked up from ~100ish in Black Panther event and got my 1200 in less than 2 hours left in event. My Chasm/iHulk is 486/480 and I mirror matched from 600’s to 1000 or so.

Not really difficult or terribly difficult when you get the hang of the cycle of reviving your own Chasm to take out the other one. It’s all timing and after a few matches you just catch on to the one trick this pony provides.

ThaRoadWarrior

@HoundofShadow said:
... There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good >enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements...

I see you make the "higher, more stringent requirements" remark alot, and I'm not sure it's really warranted. I'd personally like a counter that works, and by works I mean not scraping by some of the time, and only by luck and the skin of its teeth when it does. I don't think a mirror match is a "counter" personally.

HoundofShadow

I'm just pointing out things that I've seen over the years. An effective counter is only considered a counter if it fits that player's definition of what effective means. For example, some prefer counters that shut down the other teams almost immediately. For example, Wanda shutting down iHulkoye. Before that, we had BRB/Kitty but they were too slow.

For others, an effective counter to a meta must also deter opponents from attacking them. Then, we have those who wants counter that doesn't cause them to use healthpacks each match. Also, we have those expect matches to be finished within 1-1.5 minutes.

As you can see, some requirements are pretty stringent or difficult to accomplished, depending on who the meta is. If it doesn't pass their requirements, they are not considered a counter. So, they would rather pay skip tax, lower their expectations or ask for nerfs.

As far as Chasm/iHulk is concerned, it's a given you'll take damage and eat some healthpacks, depending on the counters you bring along. Let's lay this out rationally:

At the start of the game, chances are your entire team get stunned, you're likely to eat 5500 AoE, 2k from iHulk's tile destruction, 6-7k from Chasm's match damage and another 10k target damage from Chasm's passive damage. Whoever is in the middle will eat a minimum of 24k damage. This is for baby champed MMR.

Unless you bring someone with true heal or damage reduction, you'll be using 2-3 healthpacks each match. Secondly, being aware of Chasm build will help you make better choices. A 5/3/5 means he needs 4 Chasm tiles, instead of 3 to revive. 3/5/5 means he put one Chasm tile and destroys 2 aps, instead of putting 2 and destroying 2 or 3 aps. Also, the level difference between iHulk and Chasm will also make some differences in your strategy.

For counters, each set of counter has their strengths and weaknesses.

As far as luck is concerned, it happens all the time. For example, SC is glass cannon. There are times where I still lose to him due to him getting lucky cascades. If you are targeting Chasm/iHulk with counters, there are times I still lose due to them getting lucky cascades.

ThaRoadWarrior

The pick-2 “counters” I’ve seen proposed only win some of the time, and by the skin of their teeth. The criteria for a counter is really just “wins more than they lose, ideally can do it fast enough that you can come out ahead on points in PVP rather than so slow you come out behind, and it needs to work above 900pts not just below.”

Losing because you are unlucky is fine; but winning because you are lucky is not a real counter.

Daredevil217

Please stop conflating issues.

I’m not talking about the difficulty here. The “get gud newb” posts are great. Really. We get it. You are a superior match-3er. 550 rosters tremble in fear when they see your PVE grind skillz. Chasms run in the other direction in the face of your super easy counters and 4D chess moves.

This is about variety in the meta, not difficulty. It hasn’t “always been like this”. Prior to Chasm, the meta rotated on a weekly basis. The boosted 5*s, unless truly awful, were the meta because the game was much more balanced pre-Chasm. A Ronan with 110 levels would easily be the best choice for this week before Chasm, and now playing Ronan is a liability. That is not balanced. I actually enjoyed using all of my roster and seeing what the boost week held. That’s gone now and the game is much less fun to me as a result.

As an experiment, I just used Hulk/Chasm all the way from 0-1200 in one push. Ended with a half hour left. Was only attacked twice. One was a defensive win. The other a big loss, but just the one hit. In the PVE prior I used Ronan/Sersi and it was a bloodbath. With plenty of time left in slice 1 no less I was getting hammered because I wasn’t using chasm and had to resort to wins. This is the problem.

HoundofShadow

Based on what the dev said, the playerbase are divided between Chasm. This is fact. Nerfing Chasm will make one group happy and the other group unhappy. On the other hand, not nerfing Chasm will have the opposite effect. That's why counter play is always the best solution.

On one side, we have players who

1) find him fun
2) have adapted to his playstyle
3) have found counters to that team

On the other side, we have players who

1) find him not fun to play with
2) not fun to play against
3) want variety in pvps

In the last one or two pvps, I still see Ronan/Sersi or Ronan and other variations. Personally, I rather face Chasm/iHulk than Ronan/Sersi. And that's what I did: skipping Ronan/Sersi and aim for Chasm/iHulk instead.

One thing I find strange is that Chasm/iHulk provide strong deterrent, which means you've an easier time to climb to 1200 in slice 1, as proven by players who don't seem to like Chasm/iHulk meta. The positive side of this is that it's also easier to climb pvps to 1200 due to their high points. As far as pvps is concerned, I'm a practical person. If winning 60-70 points from Chasm/iHulk helps me to hit 1200, I'm fine with it. I've tried using Chasm/iHulk to climb and they are good deterrent. However, I still get beaten by Ronan and his teammates. Even though Chasm/iHulk is a good deterrent, it didn't stop me from using Ronan or Sersi to climb.

As for counters that win by skin of their teeth, I wonder if you could give examples of that? Do you mean winning the match with only <10,000 hp left or <5000 hp left?

Sekilicious

I think people know the problem. Rather than git gud they appear to be operating under the assumption that nerfing or effective counters before rotating out hasn’t happened before and there is no reason to expect it this time. I expect that once the revive mechanic is effectively countered the meta will go back to changing weekly.

ThaRoadWarrior

I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

Bowgentle

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

Stop being ungrateful!
I'm sure all counters work wonderfully!
For one match, at 900, after which you come out to -300, needing two health packs, and have to start again.

ThaRoadWarrior

@Bowgentle said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

Stop being ungrateful!
I'm sure all counters work wonderfully!
For one match, at 900, after which you come out to -300, needing two health packs, and have to start again.

Once an actual, non-mirror match counter exists, those slow mirror matches won't be viable anymore. The only reason it's working now is because people are still afraid to target a Chasm/Hulk team as evidenced anecdotally by Daredevil's push to 1200 unshielded.

HoundofShadow

3/4 loaner dying is a guarantee. The math has already proven that. If you are using loaner, their dying before you make your first match is a norm, unless it's a 5* pvp. I don't think there is any non-5* loaner with more than 24k hp.

Colossus/Wanda works and you don't take a lot of damage. Both will still be alive with over 50% hp. I've tested against ~470 Chasm, and mine is only low 45x.

fight4thedream

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
I mean the loaner dead, and at least one of your pick 2 characters dead, and then your remaining character needing a healthpack, so below 2/3 health.”

There are no sleep immune characters who are a viable counter currently to the big leveled Chasms you see above 900. I love the rebalance to surfer, but he has never come out of a chasm fight alive and I’ve tried. There aren’t any good Mutants to put with Apocalypse but he is closest to being effective with his low AP costs and good middle color power. Moon Knight is not good against any team unfortunately. Thano5 is so close to being the counter we need; his purple can make all the difference but even though his health made it farther than most elder 5* characters it’s too low now for this.

I was actually just thinking that thematically Thanos would be the perfect counter. I don't see the Mad Titan being too pleased about this pair escaping his beloved's cold embrace. And as you astutely surmised, his skill set is just a couple notches below what is needed to restore balance to the MPQ universe.

If they updated his numbers to the current generation, dropped his purple cost to 6, upped its match damage boost to 130% and probably most importantly increased the damage dealt by Court of Death by an extra 10K or so, you could pair him with Colossus or a good boosted character and have a fairly effective counter.

ThaRoadWarrior

@HoundofShadow said:
3/4 loaner dying is a guarantee. The math has already proven that. If you are using loaner, their dying before you make your first match is a norm, unless it's a 5* pvp. I don't think there is any non-5* loaner with more than 24k hp.

Colossus/Wanda works and you don't take a lot of damage. Both will still be alive with over 50% hp. I've tested against ~470 Chasm, and mine is only low 45x.

It works below 900pts based on the levels you mentioned. Try pushing to full 1200pt progression and check back with us.

atomzed

My issue with the Chasm-Ihulk meta is that it is difficult to win with any booster duo.

During SW-Colossus meta, they were rampant, yes, but you could take them down with any boosted duo. Not so with chasm-Ihulk. If the boosted 5* list do not have any AOE specialist, it is just too difficult to take down them together. Then they go into this immortal cycle, and you watch helplessly as they slowly whittle you down.

That’s my main problem with this meta.

HoundofShadow

Been there, done that. I always hit 1200 in pvps, unless I play in the last 1-3 hours where I get hit repeatedly regardless of whether Chasm exists or not. I use other counters I mentioned as well. I've beaten 5xx-550 Chasm and 46x-47x iHulk with Dr Thor and Iceman multiple times already.

Here's three videos of Dr Thor and Iceman in action

Vs baby champed Chasm
https://streamable.com/vlzsb7

Vs ~500 Chasm
https://streamable.com/mrs4a8

ThaRoadWarrior

Iceman and Jane is one of the better options to be sure. Still isn't hyper quick, and in my experience not hyper reliable, but it's usable. How big was that hulk, do you recall? seemed like there was a big chasm but a small hulk, having only 40k hit points. the ones I see are usually more closely matched in level.

killahKlown

There's nothing particularly bad about Chasm. Paured with anyone he's a good opponent, annoying defensively and can cause some damage. He's only broke really when paired with Hulk. If the revive thing were to somehow be negated when paired with another revive character, then I think all the combining would go away and the people who dropped for a big Chasm will still have that strong character on their rosters without feeling cheated

ThaRoadWarrior

I really don't want to see a chasm nerf, and I'm interested to try out this super low power-cost Riri to see if it is a viable counter, I just think we need some tools. Panthos would be a great counter-meta if they were both buffed soonish.