The ChaHulk meta

Daredevil217

Did many folks have him champed though? That’s why I wasn’t running him myself. He’s one like Chasm that’s too complex on paper for me to get without trying him in practice. Since his damage is based on number of traps, I need to see in real time how easy it is to flood the board and if the damage per trap is big enough to make him viable.

Many saw “trap tiles” and wrote him off and am wondering how many actually played him before doing so. I’m not saying he’s good by any means. Just I have no idea how good bad his wall o text abilities are.

St_Bernadus

I think Emma is pretty good too. Better than She Hulk.

Jimsta_rooney

As soon as theres a reliably fast pick two this will stop being an issue.
I agree with a lot of you though pvp has become stale real quick.
I personally think its lazy of the new devs to make another unkillable so hes a "must have" and feel the previous devs knew it would hurt pvp introducing a character like chasm, thats probably why they never did it themselves...

ThaRoadWarrior

Any characters besides Kate Bishop who can hard-stop enemy healing? It’s hard to test her in the Riri PVP given that it’s a 12 AP blue power and she shares a top color with Riri, making it pretty much impossible to gather that kind of Blue.

_TrashPanda

Couple of Thoughts:

1) I personally don't think Chasm should be nerfed as I'm not a fan of nerfing. Rather, introducing a RPS (Rock, Paper, Scissors) counter character would be way better. The recent buff to Silver Surfer was an encouraging attempt as a RPS to Chasm, however, the idea failed due to a couple things: (a) Surfer's 12 black cost is still WAY too high to be able to negate Chasm's AP steal. I feel like all the RPS would need is to (i) Prevents team & reduces match damage, (ii) Prevents AP theft from either team, (iii) Kills Regen abilities against both friend & allys, (iv) is immune to stun, (v) they should be decently "tankish" like Colossus. Ideally make them all passive abilities. By making them prevent AP theft by either team & Kills regen abilities on both sides, it would prevent people from using them with Chasm & discourage people from using them all the time, thus increasing RPS play in SIM & PvP. That would also make them easy to pair with whoever people wanted in 2-Character matches, likely someone with a strong KO. They also wouldn't be OP enough that Chasm would be "relegated to the shelf to collect dust" like what happened to Gambit after his Hard nerf.

2) They could just update Kitty's power to include replacing all "enemy special tiles"? That way Brb/ Kitty would effectively provide a decent counter against Chasm.

3) Why doesn't Knull's passive "Amortal Coil - Friendly Special Tiles" include Chasm tiles?

HoundofShadow

Trap tile based abilities are typically DOA for many. The next counter for tiles converter/destroyer specialist has to be trap tiles, and it has to be triggered upon destruction/replacement.

@ThaRoadWarrior If you're trying to use Kate Bishop against Chasm/iHulk, she's useless. After you down Chasm, he will still revive with whatever health is appropriate based on number of Chasm+web tiles, unless your intention is to get their health low enough to let Riri/Dr Thor to finish them off.

Oscorp Spidey and 4* Emma who disable his abilities are also useless because he still revives after you downed him even though his abilities are disabled. Oscorp Spidey can eat all of Chasm Web tiles though for 9 or 8 red aps, if it helps.

Characters like Wanda, C&D and 5* Emma that reduces enemies abilities levels by 3-4 are actually useful.

Also, characters who deal permanent damage also "stops" healing as well.

@_TrashPanda Chasm tiles are Character tiles and not special tiles. Other Character Tiles are Silver Surfer's black power and 5* Dr Strange's purple power.

ThaRoadWarrior

Yeah the Kate thing was specifically to nullify the forever mirror match situation by preventing him regaining more health than he loses off a match 3 with web tiles involved.

HoundofShadow

In that case, Oscorp Spidey or 4* Emma would be much better than Kate Bishop because they disable all of Chasm abilities rather than just limit his healing. Emma has an edge because her disabling power is repeater based, rather than cd based, unlike Kate and Oscorp Spider. However, it uses purple ap rather than blue ap.

Bowgentle

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
Yeah the Kate thing was specifically to nullify the forever mirror match situation by preventing him regaining more health than he loses off a match 3 with web tiles involved.

Crystal.
Very, very slowly.

HoundofShadow

Permanent damage ability is pretty useful, even if you aren't dealing with Chasm. Unfortunately, all characters with such ability deals low permanent damage: Knull, Crystal. If you can get some damage booster like Okoye or Kitty, it should be much faster.

ThaRoadWarrior

Permanent damage is definitely one of the ways I’d suggest a hard counter, but everybody who can do it does it in micro doses. Maybe a Old Man Daken or Knull are on the rebalance table soon?

HoundofShadow

The question is probably, how will a mid to high permanent damage ability affects characters with healing abilities that exist now and those that will exist the future? Will a single character with such ability make all healing abilities useless?

Should such character be limited to niche usage, specifically to counter revival theme team?

mani82

The hard counter we are looking for shoudl be one which should not be pounced upon when we are fighting one chahulk team and winning with bare minimum health and we come back to see minus 220 points to retal then no point in fighting it at all ;skipping is a better option

ThaRoadWarrior

@HoundofShadow said:
The question is probably, how will a mid to high permanent damage ability affects characters with healing abilities that exist now and those that will exist the future? Will a single character with such ability make all healing abilities useless?

Should such character be limited to niche usage, specifically to counter revival theme team?

One way to do it would be to have a character who significantly reduces permanent health only after that enemy revives rather than a while-living health reduction. This seems like a good addition to Hela or Thanos if not a new character with a new power set. Against Chasm it almost has to be a passive.

HoundofShadow

After looking back at all the 5* meta in pvps since Thorokoye, I say players still don't understand the aftermath of the tyoe of team they want in pvps. If we were to use all the meta since Gambit (Bishop aside) as benchmarks, here are the typical attributes players want:

1) speed in finishing matches (Thorokoye)
2) 1-2 healthpack usage every few matches (Britty) or zero healthpack usage (Thorokoye)
3) Good scarecrow (iHulkoye due to sheer offense, or Britty or Colossus/Wanda due to defense)

Players want to put up a team that can do 1, 2 and 3 in pvp, but they also hate teams that can do 1, 2 and 3.

Thorokoye meta has 1&2 but players were complaining due to lack of variety.

Then, we had Britty, who has 2&3. Complains: matches against them were slow. It was slow using them as well.

IHulkoye had all three, and players wanted them nerfed because fighting against them means using healthpacks or having slow matches (Britty).

Then, Wanda/Colossus came and they could also do all three. There were players who wanted them nerfed as well before weekly 5* boost was introduced. The complain was matches were slow and they require players to use healthpacks against them.

If your criteria in dealing with meta like Chasm/iHulk need to have 2 & 3, then prepare for slow matches when you fight against them. Either that, prepare for healthpack usages if they were decimating iHulk/Chasm with speed.

So far, there has not been a successful counter meta that doesn't invite complain for these past 4-5 years. ShangChi/America Chavez is probably our modern Thorokoye but given today's standard, not even players with 550 SC are using them because they are glass cannon.

ThaRoadWarrior

Any meta team whose best/only counter is itself is going to feel unhealthy. When that team is also one of the slowest we’ve seen and a merciless health sink, it’s a recipe for complaint.

ThaRoadWarrior

Here is an example of a pick-3 team that can win but I wouldn’t say is a counter. Kind of hilarious for getting hulk down to 1 health point, this started out as a hulk/Crystal/Chasm team. It eventually flooded the board to the point chasm couldn’t keep up, which is another strategy that could work if there were a 5* who can do what Polaris does. Carbage is the closest who can do it passively.

My middle character there is Electro, probably would have worked better with somebody else some the yellow was only good for making one strike at a time.

HoundofShadow

There are a few counters to Chasm/iHulk in pick-2 already but they fail the speed and probably healthpacks test. Speed test is subjective. Personally, ~ 2 minutes win speed is fine for me. Some players probably expect 45-60 second matches. Riri/Dr Thor might fail the healthpack test.

Replace Polaris with Ultron/Apocalypse and it will be much better. Electro will take 50% fewer damage, instead of 25% fewer damage. Ultron will help to buff and create strike tiles, while Apocalypse will boost his permanent damage to over 10k.

Daredevil217

@HoundofShadow said:
After looking back at all the 5* meta in pvps since Thorokoye, I say players still don't understand the aftermath of the tyoe of team they want in pvps. If we were to use all the meta since Gambit (Bishop aside) as benchmarks, here are the typical attributes players want:

1) speed in finishing matches (Thorokoye)
2) 1-2 healthpack usage every few matches (Britty) or zero healthpack usage (Thorokoye)
3) Good scarecrow (iHulkoye due to sheer offense, or Britty or Colossus/Wanda due to defense)

Players want to put up a team that can do 1, 2 and 3 in pvp, but they also hate teams that can do 1, 2 and 3.

Thorokoye meta has 1&2 but players were complaining due to lack of variety.

Then, we had Britty, who has 2&3. Complains: matches against them were slow. It was slow using them as well.

IHulkoye had all three, and players wanted them nerfed because fighting against them means using healthpacks or having slow matches (Britty).

Then, Wanda/Colossus came and they could also do all three. There were players who wanted them nerfed as well before weekly 5* boost was introduced. The complain was matches were slow and they require players to use healthpacks against them.

If your criteria in dealing with meta like Chasm/iHulk need to have 2 & 3, then prepare for slow matches when you fight against them. Either that, prepare for healthpack usages if they were decimating iHulk/Chasm with speed.

So far, there has not been a successful counter meta that doesn't invite complain for these past 4-5 years. ShangChi/America Chavez is probably our modern Thorokoye but given today's standard, not even players with 550 SC are using them because they are glass cannon.

You left out the 5* god boost meta which was actually the healthiest I believe the meta has been in a very very long time; maybe ever. Prior to Chasm, I feel that they figured it out. Chasm broke that.

@HoundofShadow said:
There are a few counters to Chasm/iHulk in pick-2 already but they fail the speed and probably healthpacks test. Speed test is subjective. Personally, ~ 2 minutes win speed is fine for me. Some players probably expect 45-60 second matches. Riri/Dr Thor might fail the healthpack test.

Replace Polaris with Ultron/Apocalypse and it will be much better. Electro will take 50% fewer damage, instead of 25% fewer damage. Ultron will help to buff and create strike tiles, while Apocalypse will boost his permanent damage to over 10k.

The problem with Chasm counters more than any of the three things you listed is the “target test”. Does playing this team put a target on my back where I’m getting hit to the point I’m losing points faster than I gain them. And trust me, if you are playing anything other than Hulkgasm (and yes that includes a boosted Chasm/Crystal), I’m hitting you and not thinking twice about it. Last PVP I think I joined too late and people “figured it out” that unboosted Hulk is a better partner than boosted Crystal because that’s all I could find and had to hit only Hulkgasm for like my last 300 points. I don’t really play the PvP meta game (coordinating, using line, memorizing times to play optimally etc.). I just hit targets that look good and don’t look at the names. So I’m likely doing a ton wrong.

HoundofShadow

I look at pvp from a more pragmatic approach: how can I hit 1200 in the fewest wins possible? Variety is less of a priority to me. If I see 6X-7X, I hit. On the other side of the spectrum, there's at least 1 550 player who wants the dev to reduce 5* boost level by 70-80%. I'm not in Line, so I'm not sure what % of the 550 players in Line support that idea.

The thing about counter that also don't put a target on your back means that it's either slow to play against, or you use 1-2 healthpacks to take them down. I noticed a lot of 550 SC in SCL 10 when I went up to take a look recently. I guess it's due to them pulling for SC in vaults/stores. However, I don't recall seeing 550 SC in pvps. I've seen some other organic 550 meta like Okoye/Apocalypse/BRB being paired with other characters. SC actually pass speed and healthpack test but he's a glass cannon. In essence, the trade off is either slowing down of matches or causing heavy healthpack usage to deter multiple attacks in quick succession.

I have no problem hitting 1200 without relying on Hulkgasm in slice 1. It has always been the case that you will find limited targets due to joining late. It happened to me even when Chasm didn't exist back then. I assume joining late means joining with. 4 or fewer hours left. I think the differences could be due to different playstyles and personal comfort levels when it comes to risk appetite.