The ChaHulk meta

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:
PvP will still be a wall of Chasm/Hulk, so how is Kang not a failure?

Not really weighing in on Kang's viability as I don't have enough datat yet.

But I could easily see a scenario where chasm/ihulk remains a solid pvp defensive team, BUT is no longer really annoying to fight. Thunk hulkoye in pvp. That team was still all over pvp for months after switch/colossus released, but people didn't mind so much because fighting hulkoye wasn't nearly as frustrating. That would be a successful outcome for Kang.

entrailbucket

Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

HoundofShadow

How often does this scenario happen? It's rare; once every few years.

entrailbucket

Why does that matter? It's possible, and it's been done before.

HoundofShadow

You're assuming that the dev knows exactly what will happen to the meta game, when they themselves admitted they can't predict exactly how things will turn out.

entrailbucket

So you think they're incapable of designing such a counter?

HoundofShadow

Through trials and errors, feedbacks, they could do that. Whether they want to implement such a counter is another matter.

To kill Chasm/iHulk with AI current level of intelligence, one needs:

1) An ability that team heals or reduces damage
2) something that gains aps
3) something that kills revive even with match damage

I would say a modified Hit-Monkey would do the job. All the dev needs to do is to let Hit-Monkey's "down and negate revive red active+passive ability" turn into a passive ability that extends to his allies as well, and one that includes match damage and their powers. They could create a 5* Deathlok with increased damage reduction that also feeds aps as a pick-2.

With this counter team, Chasm/iHulk will be rendered useless. Imagine Chasm/iHulk dying to match damage and they can't revive. I think it's hard to disagree that this is a fool-proof AI pick-2.

killahKlown

@entrailbucket said:
Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

HoundofShadow

He's in slice 2 or 5 where hardly anyone plays there. On top of that, he's in 550 mmr territorial. When 550 players unloaded, they unloaded on Knull, Colossus and Wanda. 550 players probably unloaded at the same time compared to baby champed roster that can unload during various period.

Vhailorx

@killahKlown said:

@entrailbucket said:
Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

Or 550 mmr?

entrailbucket

S2, 550 matchmaking, both for a very long time now.

entrailbucket

"Whether they want to" is the question, right? We know that they decided to release a hard counter to Okoye/Hulk, but we don't know why. At the time, that team was everywhere and then it pretty suddenly wasn't.

I'd prefer more balance at the tier, so a lot of characters were closer in power level, but don't think these hard counters are terrible. If there were more hard counters there'd be more variety, and that's good.

In a rock/paper/scissors metagame (that players keep saying they want), you'd have a counter team that easily beat one team but was very weak to some other team, forcing you to keep changing to win fights. It's weird that they started down this path then stopped.

killahKlown

@Vhailorx said:

@killahKlown said:

@entrailbucket said:
Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

Or 550 mmr?

Nah that ain't it

Bowgentle

With their fixation on metrics I'd say they had a reason to stop.
Don't ask me what that reason was, beyond lower spending (cause that's the one that matters).

Tony_Foot

I keep saying it, people won’t be happy until there’s a passive that does all the work for them against chasm. Stops ap and revive in one passive. If it can’t do that and be a deterrent on defence, failure.

“We want rock paper scissors” but I also don’t want to take hits.

Daredevil217

It all depends on how you define “counter”. If it’s just a character that can beat Chasm, then we already have “counters”, and Kang doesn’t move the needle. For me personally the problem has never been about “beating Chasm” (and it’s hilarious when people try to make it about that). The issue is around variety. I’m tired of facing the same boring team.

Now you may counter with, “there’s always going to be a best team”. Whether Colossus/Switch, BRB/Kitty, Hulkoye, or Thorkoye, your queues will be littered with whatever the meta of the moment is.

To that I say, god boosts fixed that problem. The game will never be balanced completely, but if all of your characters fall within a certain delta, then the “best” will be the ones with 100 levels tacked on. And each week what you play is different and what you see is different.

Chasm obliterated this. Hulkgasm became a better pick than characters 100+ levels higher. Now what you see is Hulkgasm, and you better play them too, lest you be a target.

So would I rather play as a team that can beat Hulkgasm, or one that can beat all teams trivially, is AI-proof, and costs anyone who attacks me health packs. Of course I’m going to choose the latter. And if everyone else feels the same, then while Kang may counter an aspect of Chasm’s kit, he will not have countered the Chasm meta.

In my mind, Chasm broke the power scale. Pretty much every character (and one reworked oldie) have tried to counter with no avail. Kang feels like significant power creep with his auto-win. It’s concerning because this level of busted or better is the level we need in order for a new character to be worth playing. Before they could shoot for average/mid-pack knowing that they’ll be the go-to when boosted. This is no longer the case in Chas-land. The last time a character was smashing people 100+ levels greater and was clogging up all the retals… Bishop. Coincidentally the last nerf. It was the right call then…

DAZ0273

If Kang isn't meant to be a Chasm/iHulk counter then I am not sure what he is supposed to be because I really don't see how an auto-win character benefits MPQ myself. I am glad Kang is fun but the AP restore would have been enough and that affects more than just Chasm. Auto-win is potentially off the scales OP apart from against the team that people are moaning about which seems crazy. My god boosted 500+ character is no use if some cheesy Kang team can just send them away and beat me without trying. We are now going to have to watch the next few releases very carefully for any sort of blue AP generation or AP cost reduction which puts Kang completely beyond control.

Time (ha!) will tell I guess.

Sekilicious

@entrailbucket said:
Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

People broke their hoards to get to the 550 MMR for Colossus and Wanda. And they were good defensively. People broke their hoards for Chasm, mThor and their hoards have not had time to regenerate, since that takes a year. Only whales can get their Kang to 550. But even at 550 if Kang relies on getting 9, 18, or 27 blue he will not be good defensively. Closer to Okoye than Wanda.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:
If Kang isn't meant to be a Chasm/iHulk counter then I am not sure what he is supposed to be because I really don't see how an auto-win character benefits MPQ myself. I am glad Kang is fun but the AP restore would have been enough and that affects more than just Chasm. Auto-win is potentially off the scales OP apart from against the team that people are moaning about which seems crazy. My god boosted 500+ character is no use if some cheesy Kang team can just send them away and beat me without trying. We are now going to have to watch the next few releases very carefully for any sort of blue AP generation or AP cost reduction which puts Kang completely beyond control.

Time (ha!) will tell I guess.

This is the problem with the "counters, not nerfs" philosophy that players say they want. Chasm is overpowered. A counter to Chasm (that isn't incredibly narrow) will also have to be overpowered, or it won't work. Except then you've created a new problem, and now that problem needs a counter too.

You end up in this arms race where the overall power level goes crazy, when all you really had to do was fix the problem character.

Bowgentle

Isn't power creep included in the business model?
Why keep spending, if new guys aren't massively better than old guys?
Which is why it's so surprising seeing them do balance passes on old 5s.