The ChaHulk meta

1…3637384042

Comments

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    You're missing your counter team controlled by AI that gives you an effortless win against players' Chasm/iHulk.

    Anyway, this is my mmr opponents during last season pvp and I could only see 1-2 Chasm/iHulk teams while climbing and these are the opponents available after hitting 1200 in 18 wins:

    https://streamable.com/y6t58y

    I wish I could've taken videos of my opponents in pvps for the last 1-2 months to prove that it wasn't walls of Chasm/iHulk for my mmr. Unfortunately, I don't think it works.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    In the game "rock/paper/scissors," each player chooses rock, paper, or scissors. Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock.

    Chasm/Hulk is rock, and it beats literally any team that the opponent can choose, in any circumstance. There is no team that Chasm/Hulk cannot beat, which is why I said it's akin to throwing rock every time and winning every time. That's not how that game works.

    The other poster suggested that Chasm/Hulk couldn't beat Hit-Monkey/Kang (ie that it was "paper") and I asked what he was seeing that I wasn't seeing.

    Do you need me to break it down further for you?

  • Punisher5784
    Punisher5784 Posts: 3,845 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    Maybe, just maybe 5* Wasp will be rebalanced where she passively gains 1 blue AP for every Swarm tile on the board. Let the Swarm vs Abyss battle happen!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @killahKlown said:
    entrailbucket can be a little aggressive with his opinions but that's no reason to go off on him like that.

    Thanks. It's a goofy superhero match-3 game, not life and death. This is all speculation/theorycrafting anyway, since there's very few champion Kangs out there. I'd be glad to be wrong about him!

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Because you are seeing things from the AI point of view. I remember your definition of a counter team is a team where even the AI can beat players' Chasm/iHulk team most or all of the time, or something close to that. For him, he probably seeing things from player's point of view (on offense) and he didn't consider how effectively AI controls his counter team against players' Chasm/iHulk.

    The AI is dumb. The ex-dev considered making AI smarter, but they decided against it. Likewise, I remember the new dev doesn't want to make AI smarter as well. As long as the dev doesn't make AI as smart as top players, you will be stuck in this loop you created for yourself.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    Scarlet Witch countered Okoye/Hulk, which caused the metagame to adapt. Okoye/Hulk disappeared overnight, because that team, when controlled by a player, cannot beat an AI controlled Scarlet Witch.

    This is the kind of counter they need to create if they want the metagame to change, and they've already done it before. Otherwise the metagame will continue to be dominated by Chasm teams.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    PvP will still be a wall of Chasm/Hulk, so how is Kang not a failure?

    Not really weighing in on Kang's viability as I don't have enough datat yet.

    But I could easily see a scenario where chasm/ihulk remains a solid pvp defensive team, BUT is no longer really annoying to fight. Thunk hulkoye in pvp. That team was still all over pvp for months after switch/colossus released, but people didn't mind so much because fighting hulkoye wasn't nearly as frustrating. That would be a successful outcome for Kang.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    How often does this scenario happen? It's rare; once every few years.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    Why does that matter? It's possible, and it's been done before.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    You're assuming that the dev knows exactly what will happen to the meta game, when they themselves admitted they can't predict exactly how things will turn out.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    So you think they're incapable of designing such a counter?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    Through trials and errors, feedbacks, they could do that. Whether they want to implement such a counter is another matter.

    To kill Chasm/iHulk with AI current level of intelligence, one needs:

    1) An ability that team heals or reduces damage
    2) something that gains aps
    3) something that kills revive even with match damage

    I would say a modified Hit-Monkey would do the job. All the dev needs to do is to let Hit-Monkey's "down and negate revive red active+passive ability" turn into a passive ability that extends to his allies as well, and one that includes match damage and their powers. They could create a 5* Deathlok with increased damage reduction that also feeds aps as a pick-2.

    With this counter team, Chasm/iHulk will be rendered useless. Imagine Chasm/iHulk dying to match damage and they can't revive. I think it's hard to disagree that this is a fool-proof AI pick-2.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

    You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    He's in slice 2 or 5 where hardly anyone plays there. On top of that, he's in 550 mmr territorial. When 550 players unloaded, they unloaded on Knull, Colossus and Wanda. 550 players probably unloaded at the same time compared to baby champed roster that can unload during various period.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards

    @killahKlown said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

    You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

    Or 550 mmr?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    S2, 550 matchmaking, both for a very long time now.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    "Whether they want to" is the question, right? We know that they decided to release a hard counter to Okoye/Hulk, but we don't know why. At the time, that team was everywhere and then it pretty suddenly wasn't.

    I'd prefer more balance at the tier, so a lot of characters were closer in power level, but don't think these hard counters are terrible. If there were more hard counters there'd be more variety, and that's good.

    In a rock/paper/scissors metagame (that players keep saying they want), you'd have a counter team that easily beat one team but was very weak to some other team, forcing you to keep changing to win fights. It's weird that they started down this path then stopped.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @Vhailorx said:

    @killahKlown said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh see, I had the opposite experience with Scarlet Witch and Okoye. Virtually overnight after their release, Okoye/Hulk completely disappeared from queues and was replaced by SW/Colossus. Different matchmaking/slices, I guess?

    You must roll in slice 1.5 or something because your experiences are often quite different than what most of us experience.

    Or 550 mmr?

    Nah that ain't it

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    With their fixation on metrics I'd say they had a reason to stop.
    Don't ask me what that reason was, beyond lower spending (cause that's the one that matters).

Categories