The ChaHulk meta

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    He's one of the extremely rare cases where the game rewards you for casting stuff. If you use his powers in a puzzley way, you can get, like, 150,000 damage for 7ap. This is how it should work.

    The problem isn't that all these passives exist, necessarily, the problem is that they're way better than every active ability. Why am I saving up 8ap to cast some power for 40,000 when Chasm does that much passively in 2 turns? Why bother powering up for an AOE power that does 30k when I can bring Okoye/Hulk, make 1 team up match, and get the same for free?

    Always-on (or conditional passives where the condition is very easy to meet) need to be weaker than all active powers, or there's no point in having active powers at all.

  • _TrashPanda
    _TrashPanda Posts: 98 Match Maker

    I really like Chasm and don't think he needs to be nerfed. Although I am fully aware of my bias as well. For pvp, I like characters that are good on defense over glass cannons that are fast and hit hard but are terrible on defense. It's fun to hit the fat teams that others tend to skip. However, that being said, Auto-Regen characters could use a hard counter. Make a new 5* that's a tank (like Colossus) but that prevents ALL other characters from (1) reviving and (2) prevents ap theft/ loss (this includes attacking team) and don't give them a big nuke power. That way they aren't overpowered but they're a solid hard counter against all revive characters.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,812 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    He's one of the extremely rare cases where the game rewards you for casting stuff. If you use his powers in a puzzley way, you can get, like, 150,000 damage for 7ap. This is how it should work.

    The problem isn't that all these passives exist, necessarily, the problem is that they're way better than every active ability. Why am I saving up 8ap to cast some power for 40,000 when Chasm does that much passively in 2 turns? Why bother powering up for an AOE power that does 30k when I can bring Okoye/Hulk, make 1 team up match, and get the same for free?

    Always-on (or conditional passives where the condition is very easy to meet) need to be weaker than all active powers, or there's no point in having active powers at all.

    In the rare cases I’m using chasm I’m clearly doing it wrong. Explain how I do 40k passive damage.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    He's one of the extremely rare cases where the game rewards you for casting stuff. If you use his powers in a puzzley way, you can get, like, 150,000 damage for 7ap. This is how it should work.

    The problem isn't that all these passives exist, necessarily, the problem is that they're way better than every active ability. Why am I saving up 8ap to cast some power for 40,000 when Chasm does that much passively in 2 turns? Why bother powering up for an AOE power that does 30k when I can bring Okoye/Hulk, make 1 team up match, and get the same for free?

    Always-on (or conditional passives where the condition is very easy to meet) need to be weaker than all active powers, or there's no point in having active powers at all.

    In the rare cases I’m using chasm I’m clearly doing it wrong. Explain how I do 40k passive damage.

    Put 100 more levels on him?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's a bit comical at this point. Remember when like 12 4* in a row were bad Polaris counters?

    There's exactly one example of a successful counter character in this game (SW vs Hulk), and SW ended up being successful because she was a hard counter to "doing damage more than once a turn."

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    I won't be affected by Chasm's nerf since I rarely use him in pvps. :p

    On the flip side, the dev is probably tired of the cries for nerf and this is the counter that every player want: anti-revive and anti-ap drain. Bad is/will probably be busy holding a celebration somewhere after seeing Kang's release.

    Let's see what other excuses players are going to give with Kang's release.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    It wasn't easy to track down, but here it is: page 16 on this very thread, early november. I suggested a character preventing AP loss.
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/993974/#Comment_993974
    It only took devs 3 whole months in order to release a character truly countering chasm.
    I will only say that if they paid attention to this thread and actually they heard my suggestion, they are wise.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    Ah, finally we have our rock-paper-scissors metagame. Kang beats Chasm, except Chasm beats Kang (and also literally everyone else).

    What's the game called where you throw rock every time and win every time? Is it just "Rock?"

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 304 Mover and Shaker

    @entrailbucket said:
    Ah, finally we have our rock-paper-scissors metagame. Kang beats Chasm, except Chasm beats Kang (and also literally everyone else).

    What's the game called where you throw rock every time and win every time? Is it just "Rock?"

    It is difficult to tell on paper. But hit-monkey Kang may be the paper to your rock problem.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Codex said:
    It is difficult to tell on paper. But hit-monkey Kang may be the paper to your rock problem.

    The problem with that pair is no damage reduction.
    So you will win with that pair, but you will still end up eating a ton of damage, and using 1-2 health packs per match.
    Wanda Kang might be a better pair since she does retaliation damage, has damage reduction, and can help generate blue for Kang.

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler

    Hey devs,

    Kang is a poor counter too. Just make Chasm's self-damage, permanent damage and be done with it already. That way he remains largely unchanged and still gets a limited number of revivals.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Codex said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Ah, finally we have our rock-paper-scissors metagame. Kang beats Chasm, except Chasm beats Kang (and also literally everyone else).

    What's the game called where you throw rock every time and win every time? Is it just "Rock?"

    It is difficult to tell on paper. But hit-monkey Kang may be the paper to your rock problem.

    Seems like Chasm/Hulk would be able to trivially beat Hit-Monkey/Kang, what am I missing?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    You're missing your counter team controlled by AI that gives you an effortless win against players' Chasm/iHulk.

    Anyway, this is my mmr opponents during last season pvp and I could only see 1-2 Chasm/iHulk teams while climbing and these are the opponents available after hitting 1200 in 18 wins:

    https://streamable.com/y6t58y

    I wish I could've taken videos of my opponents in pvps for the last 1-2 months to prove that it wasn't walls of Chasm/iHulk for my mmr. Unfortunately, I don't think it works.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    In the game "rock/paper/scissors," each player chooses rock, paper, or scissors. Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock.

    Chasm/Hulk is rock, and it beats literally any team that the opponent can choose, in any circumstance. There is no team that Chasm/Hulk cannot beat, which is why I said it's akin to throwing rock every time and winning every time. That's not how that game works.

    The other poster suggested that Chasm/Hulk couldn't beat Hit-Monkey/Kang (ie that it was "paper") and I asked what he was seeing that I wasn't seeing.

    Do you need me to break it down further for you?

  • Punisher5784
    Punisher5784 Posts: 3,845 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    Maybe, just maybe 5* Wasp will be rebalanced where she passively gains 1 blue AP for every Swarm tile on the board. Let the Swarm vs Abyss battle happen!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @killahKlown said:
    entrailbucket can be a little aggressive with his opinions but that's no reason to go off on him like that.

    Thanks. It's a goofy superhero match-3 game, not life and death. This is all speculation/theorycrafting anyway, since there's very few champion Kangs out there. I'd be glad to be wrong about him!

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Because you are seeing things from the AI point of view. I remember your definition of a counter team is a team where even the AI can beat players' Chasm/iHulk team most or all of the time, or something close to that. For him, he probably seeing things from player's point of view (on offense) and he didn't consider how effectively AI controls his counter team against players' Chasm/iHulk.

    The AI is dumb. The ex-dev considered making AI smarter, but they decided against it. Likewise, I remember the new dev doesn't want to make AI smarter as well. As long as the dev doesn't make AI as smart as top players, you will be stuck in this loop you created for yourself.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    Scarlet Witch countered Okoye/Hulk, which caused the metagame to adapt. Okoye/Hulk disappeared overnight, because that team, when controlled by a player, cannot beat an AI controlled Scarlet Witch.

    This is the kind of counter they need to create if they want the metagame to change, and they've already done it before. Otherwise the metagame will continue to be dominated by Chasm teams.

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