The ChaHulk meta

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  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    I'm sure that every player deep inside is well aware how poisonous is chasm to the game.
    However self interests and selfish approaches will prevent them from to recognize it.
    Always trying to make an argument in order to convince devs that what they are monitoring is false.
    By the way, apocalypse boost week, and everyone is running him with chasm.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    Not everyone, and mostly people who have no imagination.
    I ran Apoc Archangel the whole pvp.

  • IrisRyu
    IrisRyu Posts: 174 Tile Toppler

    @Kross said:
    I don't feel like reading through 38 pages here, but I want to ask those people who keep saying they have no problems with Chasm/iHulk/Shulk teams who are they using?

    Colossus/Hit-Monkey/Crystal or Colossus/Riri/Jane aren’t health pack intensive for me. Chasm/Hit-Monkey/Emm5 has been working, too.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Thanks all the players running Chasm/Apocalypse for the easy wins.

    Many weeks (and probably 1-2 months) have passed by and I hardly remember Chasm/iHulk dominating in non-Chasm boost weeks.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    Then you're playing a different game from the rest of us.

    No need to pretend Hulkasm isn't all over pvp anymore, because it totally is.
    It's just better in weeks with a good boost list.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    The counters used in this months Shield SIM to break the Chasm wall in no particular order are:

    Wanda, Colossus, third usually Crystal, no boosts required, bring AoE (PX) and Stun (MBW) TU, target iHulk before Chasm so he tanks then kill Chasm. Use PX AoE if both below 10k health. Use whales if no PX available. When they fix the Hit Monkey and Silver Surfer permakill TUs those will be the method choice.

    Chasm, iHulk, same strategy as above. You want your Chasm to die just before the opponent to use up all the Abyss tiles.

    Wanda and Hit Monkey. Probably the most straight forward. Wanda and HM create red tiles, HM nukes with red and has as sweet villain bonus. Probably want to kill iHulk last since Wanda benefits from the AoE.

    Riri, mThor, third (Colossus, Electro, or 1/2 Thor) boost green and all. Bring MBW TU or yellow boost. Target green and red. Riri creates charges then stuns every round, mThor removes the countdown between turns or by firing blue. Target Chasm and kill before abyss tiles on the board. mThor can kill everyone when the board is filled with charges. I used this one because I don’t have Wanda champed and had difficulty timing the Chasm kill in the mirror match. I don’t practice enough. The times I did the mirror I used whales.

    Other than Chasm, iHulk, none of these counters can be considered defensive teams in a game with mThor. If you see them on defense someone has a made a mistake.

    As and aside, Apocalypse, especially when boosted, is a great third for the immortal bros though you need to bring boosts to get the yellow necessary to get the train going.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    I've taken videos of my mmr a few (?) times showing the lack of Chasm/iHulk in pvps. I'm not sure if there's a need to pretend. Obviously, I'm speaking for my mmr. High close to 500 to 550 mmr players are likely seeing mostly Chasm/iHulk.

    As for shield sim, there are over 20 counter teams and its variations that Chasm/iHulk/She-Hulk is not worth mentioning anymore. Of course, the more stringent your definition of counter team is, the fewer the choices.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:
    I'm sure that every player deep inside is well aware how poisonous is chasm to the game.

    No offense man but no.
    I play the game that is presented to me.

    I want the devs to provide a hard counter to Chasm. I don’t want them to break him and turn him into a shadow.
    He isn’t a big scary monster by himself, he is only a problem paired with ihulk.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    I forgot, a great theoretical counter to the immortal meta would be Wanda/Electro, Colossus, Thanos. Here you would target iHulk and repeatedly kill until everyone is dead. Switch Colossus with Black Panther when BP is boosted or he is buffed. Maybe a stun TU would be in order to keep Chasm from adding abyss tiles after using them all. Unfortunately, as all are classic characters fewer players have them at a reasonable level than they do Chasm and iHulk, since the second has been meta since release in PvE. If they have all three at all.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    This counter works but is also terrible since it would need 2-3 health packs every turn.
    You are better off with damage negation and retaliation like Wanda el5tra

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:

    @Bad said:
    I'm sure that every player deep inside is well aware how poisonous is chasm to the game.

    No offense man but no.
    I play the game that is presented to me.

    I want the devs to provide a hard counter to Chasm. I don’t want them to break him and turn him into a shadow.
    He isn’t a big scary monster by himself, he is only a problem paired with ihulk.

    What if they fixed Hulk instead? He is also too good, and fixing him would solve about 75% of the Chasm problem.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    Lol bucket, you're the antithesis to "buffs, not nerfs!".
    Your answer is to simply make every character mediocre at best.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @Bowgentle said:
    Lol bucket, you're the antithesis to "buffs, not nerfs!".
    Your answer is to simply make every character mediocre at best.

    If they're all mediocre, aren't they all good?

    If you have a few 15 out of 10s, a whole ton of 7s, 8s, and 9s, and a few 3s and 4s, and you want balance, you can either make them all 15s or make them all 7-9s. One option seems more realistic than the other.

    Edit: if you do make them all 15s, then by definition, everyone is mediocre.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:

    There is a whole lot of projection and straw armies in this thread. It’s actually been entertaining to read but geez.

    I got a little carried away, so thanks for this. I agree.

    One thing, though -- the leaderboards will always be full of minmaxers because being at the top of the leaderboard requires using a certain set of strategies (cupcake eating, PvE optimization), and all the players who do that stuff are minmaxers. Basically those two things are highly correlated but we can't assume causation.

    We don't really know if a balanced-roster strategy can be as successful, because there aren't any high-level balanced-roster players trying to compete.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:
    Lol bucket, you're the antithesis to "buffs, not nerfs!".
    Your answer is to simply make every character mediocre at best.

    If they're all mediocre, aren't they all good?

    If you have a few 15 out of 10s, a whole ton of 7s, 8s, and 9s, and a few 3s and 4s, and you want balance, you can either make them all 15s or make them all 7-9s. One option seems more realistic than the other.

    Edit: if you do make them all 15s, then by definition, everyone is mediocre.

    Ideally, you aim to have everyone at 10, not 7 or 15.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:
    Lol bucket, you're the antithesis to "buffs, not nerfs!".
    Your answer is to simply make every character mediocre at best.

    If they're all mediocre, aren't they all good?

    If you have a few 15 out of 10s, a whole ton of 7s, 8s, and 9s, and a few 3s and 4s, and you want balance, you can either make them all 15s or make them all 7-9s. One option seems more realistic than the other.

    Edit: if you do make them all 15s, then by definition, everyone is mediocre.

    Ideally, you aim to have everyone at 10, not 7 or 15.

    Right...and to get there, you need to bring those 15s down to 10...sooooooo

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    iHulk isn't a 15, though, he does exactly what he's supposed to do.
    You don't nerf all previous characters because a new one creates toxic interactions.

    Which was your point, I know, congratulations for getting me to make it for you.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,822 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    iHulk isn't a 15, though, he does exactly what he's supposed to do.
    You don't nerf all previous characters because a new one creates toxic interactions.

    Which was your point, I know, congratulations for getting me to make it for you.

    I'd never do such a thing!

    I actually think there are some characters who do stuff that's just too good, and they limit what kinds of things new characters can do without being broken.

    Take Hawkeye. Nobody thinks Hawkeye is overpowered as a whole, but his AP generation ability absolutely is. Whenever they make a new guy who does anything with CD tiles, you have to do really extensive testing to make sure you haven't created an infinite or broken combo with Hawkeye. Like objectively the old 4cap design was fine, it's just that Hawkeye exists, so now you can't do that anymore without it being broken.

    In Hulk's case, you've got a guy who might be ok on his own, but he has a small every-turn passive AOE and he resurrects forever unless you kill him last. That means you have to be really careful about making other mass-resurrectors, and also anybody who can provide a big, flat damage boost. A character like Chasm might be ok in a vacuum, but you just can't do him and Hulk in the same game.

    As they make more characters, and especially more novel designs, a few of these older guys just really restrict their design space.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    Not everyone, and mostly people who have no imagination.
    I ran Apoc Archangel the whole pvp.

    Saw a lot of that. I ran Black Bolt/Apoc since I don't have Archangel champed yet. Easy climb, Chasm is a breeze when he doesn't have a reviving partner so I ate up plenty of Apoc/Chasm, BB/Chasm & Yelena/Chasm teams when they popped up. Didn't see a single iHulk/Chasm on my climb but did see a couple of She-Hulk/Chasm teams.

    On the other hand I decided to put out a drop cake in Simulator to get my last 10 wins without having to wade through the revivers for the last leg. Could have climbed with a mirror match but much quicker to just drop a little and then eat easier teams on retals.

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