The ChaHulk meta

LavaManLee

@Bad said:
Imo what is needed is more people engaging pvp. With the rewards per win decreased people trying to climb losed engagement.

Totally agree. I appreciate them lowering the number of wins for the 4* rewards down to 25. However, that creates a huge gap between win 25 and win 50 and, to be honest, the reward to get to 50 wins just isn't worth it.

There needs to be more incentive to get from 25 to 50 and then, as Bad says, more people would stay and play in PVP.

HoundofShadow

The gap has always been 25, isn't it? I remember it was 50 and 75.

Point wise, the gap is 1000 and 1200.

DAZ0273

When the CP was put at 1000 points a while back it seemed to drive engagement but I guess the Devs saw too many people were getting there. I know during that season I hit 10,000+ due to the CP incentive whereas these days I can't always be bothered to do so.

HoundofShadow

Another theory I heard is that it reduced engagement because cp is worth more than 4* shards. CP at 50 wins or 1000 points was a thing for a couple of weeks?.

DAZ0273

@HoundofShadow said:
Another theory I heard is that it reduced engagement because cp is worth more than 4* shards. CP at 50 wins or 1000 points was a thing for a couple of weeks?.

Yeah, I can't remember how long it was for but I personally found it a big incentive. I could be an outlier though.

HoundofShadow

It's possible for both experience to exist together. Players who are used to hitting 75wins or 1200 wins would stop at 50 or 1000 wins due to the switch since 4* shards aren't worth the extra 25 wins. On the other hand, players who don't go for 75 wins or 1200 wins are aiming for 50 wins/1000 points instead.

DAZ0273

I suppose changing 4* shards for 5* shards could be the fix to keeping players going.

entrailbucket

Players love using strong defensive teams, because it means others can't attack them easily.

Players hate facing strong defensive teams, because they can't attack others easily.

Unfortunately, in a PvP game, it's really hard to balance these impulses. The best solution here is to make sure that teams that are good on defense are bad on offense and vice versa, but the game isn't necessarily deep enough to make that happen easily. One way might be to change certain characters' powers based on whether they're on offense or defense.

Sekilicious

@DAZ0273 said:
I suppose changing 4* shards for 5* shards could be the fix to keeping players going.

hhmmmm 250 5* shards for 1200 pts and 50 wins, dropping cp to 1100 and 35 sounds wonderful. Especially if they only rotated the classics.

Normally, I would suggest this become its own thread but the Chasm hatefest seems to have jumped the shark. Someone let me know if they want the rewards discussion split out.

HoundofShadow

They will put 5* shards in pvp progression rewards after they release 6*.

Sekilicious

We might have said the same thing about 5s with double feeders once upon a time.

killahKlown

@LavaManLee said:

@Bad said:
Imo what is needed is more people engaging pvp. With the rewards per win decreased people trying to climb losed engagement.

Totally agree. I appreciate them lowering the number of wins for the 4* rewards down to 25. However, that creates a huge gap between win 25 and win 50 and, to be honest, the reward to get to 50 wins just isn't worth it.

There needs to be more incentive to get from 25 to 50 and then, as Bad says, more people would stay and play in PVP.

I disagree, CP is the most valuable commodity in the game. I'd trade all other pvp progression rewards just for the CP

HoundofShadow

Yes, and I believe they are preparing for something big, and that's why they are giving away 5* covers and shards like candies to cushion the impact. Looking at things optimistically, the big thing is 6* or a pseudo-like 6*, and I'm thinking Support being activated in pvps and pves for AIs.

In pves, it'll take you about 2 days or ~100 minutes playtime to hit 250 5* shards. In PvPs, there are players who can hit 1200 points in under 40 minutes. Getting 250 5* shards in pvps progression that easily means the value of 5* are lowered. 5* is the end game afterall, unless plans change.

Sekilicious

It seems to me that the end game has moved to 550s rather than simply champed. Once you have 13 you are 100 short of maxing out the character. They can hand out 5* shards like candy because people cannot champ all that they have without additional inputs of iso, and there has been no sign they are increasing that. Myself, I am sitting on 4 fully covered toons (Ultron, Gamora, iShulk, Emma) and around 50 4s with champ rewards waiting. Besides, if they stick to only classic characters they will hand out one additional cover per year for each, less with each release. It's a moot point anyways. As you originally posted, there has been no sign they will add 5* shards to PvP.

HoundofShadow

It's going to take ages to hit 550, unless you hoard for 2 years or so. Even then, it's only 3 550.

Anyway, to bring things back to topic, this was posted in reddit about a week ago by the dev regarding Chasm:

"UPDATE: Sorry for the delay on this (catching up following the Thanksgiving holiday and then was out ill for a bit). Analytics did a sweep on data concerning all things Chasm. The high level overview:

• Chasm is not as prevalent in PVP as some might think, although in certain PVP circles they do appear very frequently.
• Chasm's team compositions are repetitive and overwhelmingly lean into revive mechanics.
• Teams with Chasm have a greater than 50% win rate (though not as high as you might think)
• Overall analysis points to Chasm being a strong character, but not overly strong and not suggesting that action be taken.

That said, we did identify something very interesting: while the game manages lots of different data points, it does not track team compositions that are skipped. This was surprising, and something we aim to introduce so we have a better picture of how characters impact all angles of the game.

In light of that, we're working on introducing some things to shake up revive-centered team dynamics that we think everyone will enjoy. Cheers!"

Bad

@HoundofShadow said:

>

That said, we did identify something very interesting: while the game manages lots of different data points, it does not track team compositions that are skipped. This was surprising, and something we aim to introduce so we have a better picture of how characters impact all angles of the game.

>
But that is the most important point showing the impact of the meta.
If they don't know that then they are missing half of the data.
Particularly how the chahulk team can float until next day unshielded because no one wants to lose healthpacks in exchange on average points.

HoundofShadow

I'm not sure if tracking the number of skip is helpful. Generally speaking, for newer players like 3* players, they skip almost all teams whose level are ~100 higher than theirs.

At higher level, there are also different reasons for skipping. For example, I skip teams mostly not because they are unbeatable, but it's due to them giving low points. Players who play for points target high points opponents and skip those low point teams. There are players who skip teams because they're healthpack sensitive. There are players who rather skip teams even when there are counter teams. Notable examples are iHulkoye vs Britty or counter teams to Wanda/Colossus. And there are many other reasons.

If they simply put a tracker to each team composition and arrange them from the teams with the most skips to teams with the fewest skips, the data might be skewed because they are unlikely to be able to find the real reasons why players skip teams. I think this is better understand through in-game survey. Simply ask players why they skip teams in pvps and give them options to choose from. I'm not sure if allowing players to write their reasons is a good idea because the dev probably has to go through essays after essays to find the core reasons of why that player skips certain teams.

KGB

Not sure a survey will help. Not everyone fills them out. Even for those who do, they may not know the reason(s) they skip teams as not everyone speaks English or comes to the forums and reads about 'meta teams' etc. Plus some players may deliberately lie in order to achieve an outcome they'd like to see.

On the other hand, they could run a few PvP events in a special mode to see if it changes number of skips and which teams are skipped. For example they could run a couple events where the points was fixed at say 40 points for all teams regardless of what your current points were and see which teams get hit and which get skipped to eliminate skipping for high value. They could also auto-heal all teams after battle to eliminate fear of health pack usage and see if that affects things. They could do both those things at the same time etc.

KGB

killahKlown

"Teams with Chasm have a greater than 50% win rate (though not as high as you might think)"

Chasm isn't the issue though. It's Chasm with Hulk. Weve been saying this all along..

Alone, Chasm is strong but with Hulk that makes it the toughest combo to beat in the game. These guys should have looked at the win rate against Chasm Hulk teams, not just Chasm. Cuz ill targer Chasm Jane teams all day like candy

LavaManLee

@killahKlown said:

@LavaManLee said:

@Bad said:
Imo what is needed is more people engaging pvp. With the rewards per win decreased people trying to climb losed engagement.

Totally agree. I appreciate them lowering the number of wins for the 4* rewards down to 25. However, that creates a huge gap between win 25 and win 50 and, to be honest, the reward to get to 50 wins just isn't worth it.

There needs to be more incentive to get from 25 to 50 and then, as Bad says, more people would stay and play in PVP.

I disagree, CP is the most valuable commodity in the game. I'd trade all other pvp progression rewards just for the CP

Not sure where I said CP wasn't valuable. I didn't. What I said is that, for me, having to do 25 more wins in PVP isn't a great incentive to get 18 CP.