Gargantos Heroic Boss Event Impressions

Pwuz_

Daredevil217 said: There have been very few “constructive” or “respectful” posts from the anti camp. 

I disagree.  Beyond my own posts, which personal bias aside, are both constructive and respectful; many others here have left valid criticism in a respectful manner.

Are some being unreasonable?  Absolutely.  But that doesn’t mean all of us are.

If you feel all the Anti-Camp are ALL disrespectful and lacking in constructive feedback, perhaps that’s on you more than the Anti-Camp.

TheRiddler

Something that I think everybody should also consider is that the opinions on this forum represent considerably less than 1% of the fan base for this game.

You get the polarized views from both sides. The same way with reviews of products online. You see people that either loved the product or people that feel they got totally screwed.

And perhaps everybody should try to see it from the other side.

People with larger rosters should ask themselves how much fun they would be having if they were using loaners and 3 stars the entire event. The majority of people that play this game don't have champ 5s or the entirety of 4s champed. And not everybody complaining has a limited roster. There are people out there that have champ 5s and good 4-star rosters that just don't have Yelena, Agent Venom and Scorpion. That is what happens when you only allow 6 out of 196 characters from the 4/5 tier.

And people with smaller/newer rosters should also understand that for long-time players its nice to see a change of pace. And that this event isn't nearly as hard for them because they have the rosters to do it.

ThisisClemFandango

Personal progession and I'm out. Not even the slightest bit fun.

Daniel2121

I'm still bummed that now I won't even be able to grasp that yellow Venom cover because I just had a huge loss streak and skipped leg the first day.

HoundofShadow

From now on, just make two modes for non-boss Heroic:  normal and insane (Heroic) mode. Normal gives LT and Heroic give 5* Cover. I think the ex-dev did something similar: Places of Power.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75524/new-event-places-of-power-updated-10-11-18

If the new dev really want to make it three modes, it could give out Mighty/LT/5* Covers as the top prize.

This should solve most of the problems like being forced to use limited characters/not being allowed to use own characters.

The problem it won't be able to solve is:

1) veterans/newer players who want to play normal mode but expect to get rewards from Insane/Heroic mode.

2) Alliances who use their newer players as bargaining chips or for sympathy points. For example, they are forced to kick out the new players, or how new players are being punished because of restrictions, or how the entire alliance is being punished because they want to help new players etc.


I believe in "You are as strong as your weakest link." and "Rome wasn't built in a day." And this is what Alliance event is all about. 

Vhailorx

After a few days to reflect on the event, here are my thoughts:

(1) my personal experience is only slightly changed from a standard boss event. I have yelena champed, as well as a 12-cover OMD that I could level up if necessary. I also have scorpion and agent venom,  who have been my work horses for side nodes.  So I have used a few more health packs than normal (normal is 0),  but have never lost a match and can compete all the way to round 8.

(2) I don't mind the restriction to off-meta characters at all for this event. It might be harder for other boss events like boss rush or Apocalypse that have more puzzle-y elements, but it is manageable for garg. I do think that this particular white list is especially punishing.  Only about 3 of the available characters are actually good in a high level pve setting) (yelena, scorpion, AV. OMD, GG, Eddie Brock, and 3* Bullseye are useful too). Everyone else is pretty much wasted space against garg or level 350+ side nodes.  In a game that normally allows full use of a roster in excess of 200 characters, being left with ~8, mostly older, useful options is extremely challenging.

(3) this is nothing new. These are the reasons that demi heroic events shelved years ago. Maybe the solution is to switch to a blacklist model and just restrict the use of meta characters. There are only a dozen or two meta characters across the 3*-5* tiers; can they be restricted for heroic event on some sort of usage/win-rate criteria?

(4) there is some truly ridiculous white knighting and "git gud scrub" stuff going on in this thread. Doesn't seem very helpful to me.

Tarelgeth

I'd love to see challenges that you have to work around.  "Select a team of six characters for use in this event - they can't be used for other things and can't use Health Packs until the event ends." "Your team can't gain purple or blue AP".  "No characters with Red powers".

But not "here, only use these three".  That's not a puzzle to solve, that's just a, well, you've got those three, you just use them.  If you had them and they're leveled, you win.  If they weren't leveled or you didn't have them, you won't.  Not really very puzzly.

Eirikr56

Still get dominated by this event. Will Not get personal or alliance rewards. I have spent on this game and put time into this game and it doesn't matter. I want an apology and a guarantee this will never happen again.

Unless you had a couple key characters champed you we are set up to fail. Boss event is the wrong time to try this little experiment. This may be the beginning of the end of the game if people making decisions don't listen.

Daredevil217

HoundofShadow said:

From now on, just make two modes for non-boss Heroic:  normal and insane (Heroic) mode. Normal gives LT and Heroic give 5* Cover. I think the ex-dev did something similar: Places of Power.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75524/new-event-places-of-power-updated-10-11-18

If the new dev really want to make it three modes, it could give out Mighty/LT/5* Covers as the top prize.

This should solve most of the problems like being forced to use limited characters/not being allowed to use own characters.

The problem it won't be able to solve is:

1) veterans/newer players who want to play normal mode but expect to get rewards from Insane/Heroic mode.

2) Alliances who use their newer players as bargaining chips or for sympathy points. For example, they are forced to kick out the new players, or how new players are being punished because of restrictions, or how the entire alliance is being punished because they want to help new players etc.


I believe in "You are as strong as your weakest link." and "Rome wasn't built in a day." And this is what Alliance event is all about. 

The two game modes would fix that second point though. Make the boss hits worth the same amount of points for individual and the alliance, regardless of the difficulty chosen. Just if you choose “easy mode”, you yourself get weaker individual and alliance progression rewards. But your alliance mate who is going at it with a restricted roster gets the 5* covers for both individual and alliance rewards. But the main thing is the points on the boss are the same regardless of difficulty. Now how difficult that is to code? No idea. 

Tarelgeth said:

I'd love to see challenges that you have to work around.  "Select a team of six characters for use in this event - they can't be used for other things and can't use Health Packs until the event ends." "Your team can't gain purple or blue AP".  "No characters with Red powers".

But not "here, only use these three".  That's not a puzzle to solve, that's just a, well, you've got those three, you just use them.  If you had them and they're leveled, you win.  If they weren't leveled or you didn't have them, you won't.  Not really very puzzly.

I’ve seen this point posted elsewhere. The reality is that whatever parameters they set, people are going to find a meta and power through with it regardless. Puzzle gauntlet is the exception because the win conditions differ every match. In an event where the win conditions are the same, you’ll use your best available and spam it (no different than here). 

When Apoc was new 4* Cyke/Jean/Wolvie were popular to meet the win conditions (Cyke gets AP/ Jean removes specials)/ Logan removes the insta kill black tiles). Once a person stumbled on this team they weren’t switching it up until something better/more efficient came along (ie just overwhelm him with nukes). Apoc is probably the most puzzley boss we have, but once you “solve the puzzle” you’re roster is kind of “locked in”. 

Restricting the rosters are a way to mix it up and provide a bit more of a challenge/thought. Everyone is saying Agent Venom and Scorp are the “meta” of the available options and I never used either for a single match.  I heard people say Gobby was the only 5* of value this event, and though I tried him early, he was kind of dead weight so I swapped him out. For me it was Daken, Yelena and Brock. Maybe all considered “meh” but they put in work. Brock spams enemy protects has the yellow nuke. Daken is my healing tank who does most the damage via his repeaters and turning Brock’s protects into strikes. Yelena is the silent queen- suppressing AP, adding more strikes and spamming that purple. I used all three of their green abilities depending on the situation. That’s good synergy imo. 

Tarelgeth

Daredevil217 said:

HoundofShadow said:

From now on, just make two modes for non-boss Heroic:  normal and insane (Heroic) mode. Normal gives LT and Heroic give 5* Cover. I think the ex-dev did something similar: Places of Power.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75524/new-event-places-of-power-updated-10-11-18

If the new dev really want to make it three modes, it could give out Mighty/LT/5* Covers as the top prize.

This should solve most of the problems like being forced to use limited characters/not being allowed to use own characters.

The problem it won't be able to solve is:

1) veterans/newer players who want to play normal mode but expect to get rewards from Insane/Heroic mode.

2) Alliances who use their newer players as bargaining chips or for sympathy points. For example, they are forced to kick out the new players, or how new players are being punished because of restrictions, or how the entire alliance is being punished because they want to help new players etc.


I believe in "You are as strong as your weakest link." and "Rome wasn't built in a day." And this is what Alliance event is all about. 

The two game modes would fix that second point though. Make the boss hits worth the same amount of points for individual and the alliance, regardless of the difficulty chosen. Just if you choose “easy mode”, you yourself get weaker individual and alliance progression rewards. But your alliance mate who is going at it with a restricted roster gets the 5* covers for both individual and alliance rewards. But the main thing is the points on the boss are the same regardless of difficulty. Now how difficult that is to code? No idea. 

Tarelgeth said:

I'd love to see challenges that you have to work around.  "Select a team of six characters for use in this event - they can't be used for other things and can't use Health Packs until the event ends." "Your team can't gain purple or blue AP".  "No characters with Red powers".

But not "here, only use these three".  That's not a puzzle to solve, that's just a, well, you've got those three, you just use them.  If you had them and they're leveled, you win.  If they weren't leveled or you didn't have them, you won't.  Not really very puzzly.

I’ve seen this point posted elsewhere. The reality is that whatever parameters they set, people are going to find a meta and power through with it regardless. Puzzle gauntlet is the exception because the win conditions differ every match. In an event where the win conditions are the same, you’ll use your best available and spam it (no different than here). 

When Apoc was new 4* Cyke/Jean/Wolvie were popular to meet the win conditions (Cyke gets AP/ Jean removes specials)/ Logan removes the insta kill black tiles). Once a person stumbled on this team they weren’t switching it up until something better/more efficient came along (ie just overwhelm him with nukes). Apoc is probably the most puzzley boss we have, but once you “solve the puzzle” you’re roster is kind of “locked in”. 

Restricting the rosters are a way to mix it up and provide a bit more of a challenge/thought. Everyone is saying Agent Venom and Scorp are the “meta” of the available options and I never used either for a single match.  I heard people say Gobby was the only 5* of value this event, and though I tried him early, he was kind of dead weight so I swapped him out. For me it was Daken, Yelena and Brock. Maybe all considered “meh” but they put in work. Brock spams enemy protects has the yellow nuke. Daken is my healing tank who does most the damage via his repeaters and turning Brock’s protects into strikes. Yelena is the silent queen- suppressing AP, adding more strikes and spamming that purple. I used all three of their green abilities depending on the situation. That’s good synergy imo. 

Of course people are going to find the meta for that event.  The point is *finding* it, not being artificially restricted to it by a roster that offers no alternatives.

Bad

We got those precious 5*s, so now I have time to try the dreaded gargantos without losing points to my team.
At round 7 the loaners can't possibly win. I thought another boost for them would be fair, being a so restricted event, but it didn't come. So I tried with 2 loaners and the good ol' bullseye level 252 (anyone could possibly have a 3* character at level 250 isn't it).
Round 8, 2 loaners.
https://youtu.be/jQ4yZS8rMyY

Theghouse

The solution to a lot of arguing in this thread already exists, and I didn't read all 14 pages so sorry if this has already been suggested, but milestones is the answer everybody is looking for.

Instead of restricting rosters with the heroic format - which was extremely unpopular before and equally unpopular now (with even worse alienation of newer rosters due to sheer number of characters, and will get even worse with new 3* incoming) - they could have simply made some event milestones for the boss event.

They could have still even been tailored specifically to Dark Avengers, such as "defeat Gargantos 10/30/50 times with a dark avenger on your team", "deal 25k/50k/100k damage using dark avengers", character specific challenges such as "use agent venoms military might ability 5/10/25 times", even crazy challenges like "use scorpions acid spray ability to strengthen a strike tile created by Daken" if the game has a way to track activity that specific.

If you want to play boss event with absolutely no regard for extra challenges, great.  You want to do a few challenges, go for it.  You want to complete every single challenge, top marks ace!  By definition, the challenges will be more challenging than just using top meta teams to defeat bosses as quick as possible, so there is the new added challenge some people are asking for.

The rewards would be completely subjective to the devs idea of what is fitting, but this would work with even minimal amounts of ISO and lesser level tokens all the way up to shards for characters who are featured in the challenges, HP, CP, favorite characters shards, LTs, maybe even larger rewards for completing numerous different challenges similar to the daily complete 6.

And this approach would not only work for boss events but also for any PVE, even PVPs on a per-event or even per-season basis.

Tarelgeth

I love it.

HoundofShadow

It doesn't solve the problem of:

PvE/Boss events are stale and need a shakeup.

This is the shakeup players in the for-camp are looking at.

I hope the dev implement Heroic in some of the regular pve because T1-T10 placements in scl 10 definitely need some shakeup.

Rod5

Well fwiw I thought it was fun - easier for me to say as I’ve been playing a long time and have all the old chars champed, but so long as the side nodes don’t scale ridiculously I think it’s a really positive way forward and an easy way to beat the monotony of defaulting to meta characters (which lets face it most of us do). 

On the flip-side, I don’t think it could get much harder than dark Avengers as a Heroic theme, so understand why some have struggled. Would just encourage those to think a bit more about the battles, use appropriate supports and don’t just rely on brute force. 

Aside from maybe Spider-verse, any other selection will give some stronger characters to use and maybe ensure a wider appeal. 

DAZ0273

TheRiddler said:

Something that I think everybody should also consider is that the opinions on this forum represent considerably less than 1% of the fan base for this game.

You get the polarized views from both sides. The same way with reviews of products online. You see people that either loved the product or people that feel they got totally screwed.

And perhaps everybody should try to see it from the other side.

People with larger rosters should ask themselves how much fun they would be having if they were using loaners and 3 stars the entire event. The majority of people that play this game don't have champ 5s or the entirety of 4s champed. And not everybody complaining has a limited roster. There are people out there that have champ 5s and good 4-star rosters that just don't have Yelena, Agent Venom and Scorpion. That is what happens when you only allow 6 out of 196 characters from the 4/5 tier.

And people with smaller/newer rosters should also understand that for long-time players its nice to see a change of pace. And that this event isn't nearly as hard for them because they have the rosters to do it.

But that was how it was for many of us when Heroics were around originally (but without the  loaners!) People seem to be thinking that longer term players were birthed into this game with a champed 4* roster.

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

From now on, just make two modes for non-boss Heroic:  normal and insane (Heroic) mode. Normal gives LT and Heroic give 5* Cover. I think the ex-dev did something similar: Places of Power.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75524/new-event-places-of-power-updated-10-11-18

If the new dev really want to make it three modes, it could give out Mighty/LT/5* Covers as the top prize.

This should solve most of the problems like being forced to use limited characters/not being allowed to use own characters.

The problem it won't be able to solve is:

1) veterans/newer players who want to play normal mode but expect to get rewards from Insane/Heroic mode.

2) Alliances who use their newer players as bargaining chips or for sympathy points. For example, they are forced to kick out the new players, or how new players are being punished because of restrictions, or how the entire alliance is being punished because they want to help new players etc.


I believe in "You are as strong as your weakest link." and "Rome wasn't built in a day." And this is what Alliance event is all about. 

Oh no, Places of Power is not the example you want to use. Ha ha, the pitchforks will actually be on fire!

Vhailorx

Bad said:

We got those precious 5*s, so now I have time to try the dreaded gargantos without losing points to my team.
At round 7 the loaners can't possibly win. I thought another boost for them would be fair, being a so restricted event, but it didn't come. So I tried with 2 loaners and the good ol' bullseye level 252 (anyone could possibly have a 3* character at level 250 isn't it).
Round 8, 2 loaners.
https://youtu.be/jQ4yZS8rMyY

Nice video, though I think you got a bit lucky with the board. I imagine the loaner could win, especially with good supports, but the win rate would be quite low, which is bad alliance scoring. 

In practice, I think most rosters with filled out 3* rosters  should be able to handle the boss fights with a little luck/skill and boosts. The real problem for them will be the side nodes, which are up over level 400 by Sunday and can pose a real challenge to the wimpy 2*/3* DA lineup.

Having scorpion makes a huge impact on the side nodes as his purple is custom built for that kind of challenge, and agent venom is great for the boss as even at a baby champ level of 270, his black when boosted will do about 1/2 of round 8 garg's health pool for just 5 ap.

I think having those two champed is probably the dividing line between "this event was a nice change of pace, even if it was a real challenge," and "I broke my phone hurling it against a wall and don't want to think about MPQ for a month."

DAZ0273

Eirikr56 said:

Still get dominated by this event. Will Not get personal or alliance rewards. I have spent on this game and put time into this game and it doesn't matter. I want an apology and a guarantee this will never happen again.

Unless you had a couple key characters champed you we are set up to fail. Boss event is the wrong time to try this little experiment. This may be the beginning of the end of the game if people making decisions don't listen.

You chose to spend and you chose to play. Sorry to be blunt but you *deserve* nothing. And if the Devs listen to players like you then yes, the game will be at the beginning of the end. I think they might be a bit wiser than that.

Daredevil217

Tarelgeth said:

Daredevil217 said:

HoundofShadow said:

From now on, just make two modes for non-boss Heroic:  normal and insane (Heroic) mode. Normal gives LT and Heroic give 5* Cover. I think the ex-dev did something similar: Places of Power.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/75524/new-event-places-of-power-updated-10-11-18

If the new dev really want to make it three modes, it could give out Mighty/LT/5* Covers as the top prize.

This should solve most of the problems like being forced to use limited characters/not being allowed to use own characters.

The problem it won't be able to solve is:

1) veterans/newer players who want to play normal mode but expect to get rewards from Insane/Heroic mode.

2) Alliances who use their newer players as bargaining chips or for sympathy points. For example, they are forced to kick out the new players, or how new players are being punished because of restrictions, or how the entire alliance is being punished because they want to help new players etc.


I believe in "You are as strong as your weakest link." and "Rome wasn't built in a day." And this is what Alliance event is all about. 

The two game modes would fix that second point though. Make the boss hits worth the same amount of points for individual and the alliance, regardless of the difficulty chosen. Just if you choose “easy mode”, you yourself get weaker individual and alliance progression rewards. But your alliance mate who is going at it with a restricted roster gets the 5* covers for both individual and alliance rewards. But the main thing is the points on the boss are the same regardless of difficulty. Now how difficult that is to code? No idea. 

Tarelgeth said:

I'd love to see challenges that you have to work around.  "Select a team of six characters for use in this event - they can't be used for other things and can't use Health Packs until the event ends." "Your team can't gain purple or blue AP".  "No characters with Red powers".

But not "here, only use these three".  That's not a puzzle to solve, that's just a, well, you've got those three, you just use them.  If you had them and they're leveled, you win.  If they weren't leveled or you didn't have them, you won't.  Not really very puzzly.

I’ve seen this point posted elsewhere. The reality is that whatever parameters they set, people are going to find a meta and power through with it regardless. Puzzle gauntlet is the exception because the win conditions differ every match. In an event where the win conditions are the same, you’ll use your best available and spam it (no different than here). 

When Apoc was new 4* Cyke/Jean/Wolvie were popular to meet the win conditions (Cyke gets AP/ Jean removes specials)/ Logan removes the insta kill black tiles). Once a person stumbled on this team they weren’t switching it up until something better/more efficient came along (ie just overwhelm him with nukes). Apoc is probably the most puzzley boss we have, but once you “solve the puzzle” you’re roster is kind of “locked in”. 

Restricting the rosters are a way to mix it up and provide a bit more of a challenge/thought. Everyone is saying Agent Venom and Scorp are the “meta” of the available options and I never used either for a single match.  I heard people say Gobby was the only 5* of value this event, and though I tried him early, he was kind of dead weight so I swapped him out. For me it was Daken, Yelena and Brock. Maybe all considered “meh” but they put in work. Brock spams enemy protects has the yellow nuke. Daken is my healing tank who does most the damage via his repeaters and turning Brock’s protects into strikes. Yelena is the silent queen- suppressing AP, adding more strikes and spamming that purple. I used all three of their green abilities depending on the situation. That’s good synergy imo. 

Of course people are going to find the meta for that event.  The point is *finding* it, not being artificially restricted to it by a roster that offers no alternatives.

My last paragraph was pointing out that even in the restrictions there are quite a few combos that have worked for people. One man’s trash and all that. People are definitely finding a greater appreciation for these characters that would never leave the bench if Hulkoye was yet again an option. That’s the point.   Stretching yourself outside the match to think okay, what’s my best play here. And your best play may be different from mine because of our rosters. Then in the match, you also have to play it differently based on who you brought to the dance. Now for someone who has all options this might not be a big challenge, but that’s the reward the devs give them for years of building a diverse roster. For newer players, they can still get to round 6-7. 8 becomes an aspirational thing that they can one day get to if they build the way the devs encourage them to and not the old way (just chase the meta). 

I see people with lesser rosters, proud of finding ways to topple the boss with limited options; strategizing, sharing tips, discussing the power of boosts, supports, loaners, and different combos. The community is alive rather than asleep at the wheel. To me that’s cool. And for those ready to “quit” they can go right back to mindless grinding right now.  FFW is up, Hulkoye and Polaris are once again selectable.  Ironic that the neutered FFW is the current PVE. A reminder of what happens when the developers try something different. Instead we get the same old mindless grind as always.

The next boss event will be very telling.  I hope they stick to their vision. The meta folks get their preferred playstyle literally 9 times out of 10 (or 27 days out of 30). I think it’s okay for the folks that want a challenge to have this once a month. The game will keep going, regardless.