Nerf Okoye

Bad

Okoye is a classic who suffers from inappropiate power design. Probably when she was released she was the most strong matching her colors, level 450 : 740- 650- 540 (level 480 increases those on 200, level 520 doubles that).
But time has past and she cant tank anyone anymore. Except the way players are doing it, bending the rule with a hyper leveled okoye and a baby champed 5* with AoE passive.
Sadly, not today, and not tomorrow,  but the day will come when ihulk will not be effective anymore, and then okoye wont tank any new 5* even at the most higher levels. 
That day players rightfully will say I put everything on a character who is losing a piece of her boost on every and each turn.
That day players will ask a rebalance for her.

On the other hand, what I suggested is a bit of a more delayed boost effect but its a way for her to be useful and be present on every posible team and every new release without caring on her tanking.
Players who think that is a nerf will start a big uproar, others will quit, but players who play without prejudices will enjoy her a lot more, posibly.
Of course, devs could squeeze their brain and find another way, time will tell anyway. 

ThaRoadWarrior

Having her Hyper Leveled is a not insignificant undertaking - I say if somebody 550'd any character, they deserve to run that character into the ground lol.

DeNappa

fight4thedream said:

Originally from: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/944753/#Comment_944753

For me, it isn't so much an issue of whether or not she is easy to beat, but rather that the meta so heavily favors passive boost abilities that it elevates passive-boost character types to the detriment of other characters and play styles.  Whenever a new character is released, their value is almost always tied to how well they interact with either Okoye or Kitty.

I do not think this is good for the overall health of the game.
<snip>

Reasons why boosters are so popular:

• Speed based meta. Both PVE (faster clears) and PVP (quicker hops). 
• HP creep (esp for 5*s)
• Near-broken high level character scaling (PVE mostly -- although even boosters have a hard time handling this, so it's often combined with some kind of stun meta)
• High time requirements for grinding to progression.

Polares

I am going to add also, that I think nerfing chars like Okoye or Kitty NOW would be a total disaster for the game, because all chars that have been released in the last two years have been released in a world where those two chars exist, so they were designed to work with those chars. If we would nerf those two, maybe PvP would adapt (in the end PvP always adapts to use the best there is, even if the best is not that good really) but PvE would be a complete unplayable mess.

I also agree Devs overused stupidly strong passives, and I think the game would probably be more fun if they didnt do it, but now it is too late. We cant go back into a world these powers did not exist in the first place.

We just need better new chars, chars that are good and also counter this meta. Just release someone that doesnt let other chars resurrect with a passive (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Release someone that stops AoE damage like Quake but as a 5 (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Etc, etc. There are so many counters possible. It is very simple, we just need Devs to do it.

ThaRoadWarrior

You could revamp Thano5’s purple to be passive and change nothing else about it and he would get a ton of play, and or release a character with a 1-time tile like Chekhov’s gun that disables all passives until matched or destroyed. I think it may be possible to disrupt the passive damage meta with stuff like that if there were a will to do so.

Rosraf

We just need better new chars, chars that are good and also counter this meta. Just release someone that doesnt let other chars resurrect with a passive (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Release someone that stops AoE damage like Quake but as a 5 (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Etc, etc. There are so many counters possible. It is very simple, we just need Devs to do it.

Yeah, a passive that eats or steals the other side's TU tiles would also kneecap Okoye. 

san

DeNappa said:

snip

Reasons why boosters are so popular:

• Speed based meta. Both PVE (faster clears) and PVP (quicker hops). 
• HP creep (esp for 5*s)
• Near-broken high level character scaling (PVE mostly -- although even boosters have a hard time handling this, so it's often combined with some kind of stun meta)
• High time requirements for grinding to progression.

1) change all events to progression only (such as boss events - perhaps add more of these and more often), shifting the rewards towards progression accordingly - remove competitive play with PVE - this will solve a part of it. As for PVP, I think those that play can chime in - perhaps some sort of tiered play system? Want to play just 4* - you can do just that? Different rewards for different tiers?

2) Reduce the number of times one needs to do this, or go with boss events as above. Grinding sucks. It is not fun. They've done a small reduction for S10 players, but one could argue let's reduce it even more (2+1 as opposed to 3+1), and reduce the grind for lower tiers as well.

Daredevil217

Honestly the number of wins needed for progression in PVP is too high. I think 50 for max progression is high but would be a quality of life improvement over 75. 

I am “champ em all guy”, and if you look at my character rankings guide will see that I like mixing and matching different 5* combos. I decided to go for wins in Widow’s PvP just to clock some more time with Heimdall, Daken, and Deadpool (plus play some of my favorite fun combos like Sinister/Yelena and Goblin/Iceman). While the matches themselves were way more enjoyable, I open myself up to more hits for being the only one not playing Hulkoye. And of courses the matches are longer.

Bottom line, the reward for just playing Hulkoye from 0 to 1200 is way too high (reaching max progress in 20-30 quicker wins) so we are actually being reinforced for monotony. I like to break up the monotony every once in awhile but also fall into this stale meta trap more often than not because 75 is a chore. 

Akoni

Polares said:

I am going to add also, that I think nerfing chars like Okoye or Kitty NOW would be a total disaster for the game, because all chars that have been released in the last two years have been released in a world where those two chars exist, so they were designed to work with those chars. If we would nerf those two, maybe PvP would adapt (in the end PvP always adapts to use the best there is, even if the best is not that good really) but PvE would be a complete unplayable mess.

I also agree Devs overused stupidly strong passives, and I think the game would probably be more fun if they didnt do it, but now it is too late. We cant go back into a world these powers did not exist in the first place.

We just need better new chars, chars that are good and also counter this meta. Just release someone that doesnt let other chars resurrect with a passive (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Release someone that stops AoE damage like Quake but as a 5 (while also being a good char) and Hulkoye is dead. Etc, etc. There are so many counters possible. It is very simple, we just need Devs to do it.

I agree with your argument, however, I believe small adjustments are often better than major overhauls. Sometimes players think an overpowered character needs this big change when, instead, an almost unnoticeable tweak will do. That small change will leave the character and powers recognizable, but with a different feel. For example, having an ability create a few less special tiles means the game goes on for an extra 2-4 turns. With the way the game plays now, tables can easily turn in that time. 

Devs are often opposed to making multiple small changes over time and so they tend to over correct with one big adjustment, but in many cases a small change might be all that is needed. To your point, this small change might be in the form of anti-meta releases. If character A is overpowered because of A, then the new character counters with B. 

The only thing I don't like to see is more characters released with the ability to win the game on their own in the blink of an eye. For a game designed with team-building in mind, there is nothing worse than a single must-have character.

ThaRoadWarrior

I’d like to see OML drop his passive strikes on green rather than red, that way he could thematically and mechanically be the counter to iHulk

BigSoftieFF

I honestly think the moment PvE became non competitive I would be done. It’s one of the few things that still drives me at this point.

Taganov

All they really have to do in PvP to "solve" the issue is add an exhaustion/cool down attribute to non-essential characters. This way you can't play the same characters in the same event ad nauseam. Either way, trying to address systemic issues like the speed meta with band aid fixes like nerfing booster characters seems futile.

shardwick

Taganov said:

All they really have to do in PvP to "solve" the issue is add an exhaustion/cool down attribute to non-essential characters. This way you can't play the same characters in the same event ad nauseam. Either way, trying to address systemic issues like the speed meta with band aid fixes like nerfing booster characters seems futile.

The problem is that it would kneecap newer players that have a limited amount of characters on their rosters. If someone is playing for wins and is going for 50 or 75 then that would make the game a lot more difficult than it should be and would only discourage players from playing pvp.

HoundofShadow

Players with one to three champed 5* can probably forget about pvps. 

Michael1957

Taganov said:

All they really have to do in PvP to "solve" the issue is add an exhaustion/cool down attribute to non-essential characters. This way you can't play the same characters in the same event ad nauseam. Either way, trying to address systemic issues like the speed meta with band aid fixes like nerfing booster characters seems futile.

I love this idea . In this virtual community with so much hatred of character diversity it would be great if other less powerful characters could be accepted into the flow of the game. Put a cap on use per 24 hours based on roster sizes, so beginners could use a character 20 times for example , but players with over 200 characters might be limited to just 10.  More characters would matter and would lead to new team ideas . I get so irritated seeing rosters of 250-300 and they all use the same 10 characters and treat the rest like useless garbage . 80% of 5* I’ve never seen in a PvAI battle in a year 

Bad

All those ideas in the end would drive to less people playing pvp. On the event nefarious foes, my apocalypse was buffed along all villains. Reward was a good classic, I dont remember wich one. Well, I almost didnt saw any okoye. But people were not much playing because of that. It was pretty hard to win 1200 points and I got them at 60 wins, I think.
Recently is something like that. People play to a certain point. But to 1000 until 1200 points only are playing hulkoye teams.
Its a meta pretty taxing so its understable.
Now, all those play details wont change that all what I said about her is true, and its needed an okoye level 480 at least and a baby champed one for playing with her.
I understand that some vet players feeling confortable with her are not bothered at all.
P.S: same issue will happen on time to new YJ. Devs obstinately put on their skill they need to be tanking, and time will render them unable to.

Akoni

shardwick said:

Taganov said:

All they really have to do in PvP to "solve" the issue is add an exhaustion/cool down attribute to non-essential characters. This way you can't play the same characters in the same event ad nauseam. Either way, trying to address systemic issues like the speed meta with band aid fixes like nerfing booster characters seems futile.

The problem is that it would kneecap newer players that have a limited amount of characters on their rosters. If someone is playing for wins and is going for 50 or 75 then that would make the game a lot more difficult than it should be and would only discourage players from playing pvp.

I agree and disagree. It would definitely kneecap newer players if the cool-down period was the same for all players. However, if it was based on player-specific stats such as player level, max character level, averaged character levels, etc, a newer player could be looking at a 2 minute cool-down versus a 3 year vet with a 5 minute cool-down, for example.

A cool-down mechanic would work as long as it was fairly short, but long enough for the player to need to use another character for maybe 1 match. At this point, we're just looking at adding complexity to strategy. The big question is would the A.I. be required to also adhere to the cool-down when selecting teams. If it means I don't have to start skipping because all three teams are EXACTLY THE SAME... then I'm for it.

Akoni

Bad said:

All those ideas in the end would drive to less people playing pvp. On the event nefarious foes, my apocalypse was buffed along all villains. Reward was a good classic, I dont remember wich one. Well, I almost didnt saw any okoye. But people were not much playing because of that. It was pretty hard to win 1200 points and I got them at 60 wins, I think.
Recently is something like that. People play to a certain point. But to 1000 until 1200 points only are playing hulkoye teams.
Its a meta pretty taxing so its understable.
Now, all those play details wont change that all what I said about her is true, and its needed an okoye level 480 at least and a baby champed one for playing with her.
I understand that some vet players feeling confortable with her are not bothered at all.
P.S: same issue will happen on time to new YJ. Devs obstinately put on their skill they need to be tanking, and time will render them unable to.

I experienced the same thing with that event. The question I have is whether the decreased activity was just part of the ebb and flow or was it due to the inability to use specific characters. I believe Nefarious Foes has been in the rotation maybe 2-3 times. If there was decreased activity in the last one only, then it would not be fair to blame it on a specific variable. Statistically, there is a high chance that a large group of players may be less involved in an event or series of events, especially if they have been highly engaged for several events in a row. People sometimes need a break.

If, however, activity was low on every Nefarious Foes event, then you may be right. There could be other things going on too, though.

1. Meta has encouraged players to focus too narrowly, so anyone with a limited roster may not have been able to thoroughly enjoy the event. Many new players are entering the game attempting to maximize their MPQ experience which leads to them receiving the advice to limit their roster. I am an optimizer so collecting and amassing a large roster better suits me. Optimizers/collectors can play in every event, but may miss out on the absolute best prizes. Maximizers with limited rosters are forced to miss out on participation across the board, but make up for it by obliterating the field and taking the top prizes in the events they do participate in fully. All players tend to a blend of optimizers and maximizers, but I hope this gets my point across.
2. Prizes could have been seen as sub-par to those primarily interested in the meta-game. Let's say that the last four PVP events got you shards for Okoye, Thor, BRB, and Apocalypse. The next event will give you shards for Kingpin and the next event after that will give you shards for Kitty. It stands to reason that activity will drop on the event that provides shards for Kingpin since he is not a character that is used competitively. Sure, someone will go for it, but a decent percentage of competitive players will back off or take a break during that event to get ready to battle for Kitty shards.

Michael1957

Bad said:

All those ideas in the end would drive to less people playing pvp. On the event nefarious foes, my apocalypse was buffed along all villains. Reward was a good classic, I dont remember wich one. Well, I almost didnt saw any okoye. But people were not much playing because of that. It was pretty hard to win 1200 points and I got them at 60 wins, I think.
Recently is something like that. People play to a certain point. But to 1000 until 1200 points only are playing hulkoye teams.
Its a meta pretty taxing so its understable.
Now, all those play details wont change that all what I said about her is true, and its needed an okoye level 480 at least and a baby champed one for playing with her.
I understand that some vet players feeling confortable with her are not bothered at all.
P.S: same issue will happen on time to new YJ. Devs obstinately put on their skill they need to be tanking, and time will render them unable to.

I disagree in part . The only people that   Wouldn’t play are those with the mindset “ If we can’t play by my rules I’m going home “.  Now I’ve been in the  forum to know that’s a good percentage but I say good riddance. Not only would new teams be explored and invented but players with imagination would for the first time place higher than they normally do as a lot of players with 15-30 5* playing SCL 9 wouldn’t bother taking the top 25 spots as usual 

Phumade

Bad said:

All those ideas in the end would drive to less people playing pvp. On the event nefarious foes, my apocalypse was buffed along all villains. Reward was a good classic, I dont remember wich one. Well, I almost didnt saw any okoye. But people were not much playing because of that. It was pretty hard to win 1200 points and I got them at 60 wins, I think.
Recently is something like that. People play to a certain point. But to 1000 until 1200 points only are playing hulkoye teams.
Its a meta pretty taxing so its understable.
Now, all those play details wont change that all what I said about her is true, and its needed an okoye level 480 at least and a baby champed one for playing with her.
I understand that some vet players feeling confortable with her are not bothered at all.
P.S: same issue will happen on time to new YJ. Devs obstinately put on their skill they need to be tanking, and time will render them unable to.

People don’t bother to front run points in NEF foes because it’s off season and don’t personally benefit for running up points.

if you really want more people to play pvp, and thus make it easier for you to get 1200, ask for more milestone quests.  Like win 3 matches in a row, get 2 defensive wins etc.  in fact I guarantee the easiest way to ensure people get to 1200 (which I have aALWAYS endorsed) is to have a pvp daily quest that requires a win with a team that has 3 different rareities.

without a doubt, targeted quests did more for pvp engagement then any form of char level or new char introductions.

a real shame that the quests are largely finished for experienced and they are returning to account maintenance levels of play.  Just enough to keep rostering everything, without playing xtra matches