Nerf Okoye

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    san said:
    [...]. Previously broken teams (and broken teams now, such as BRBitty) and characters (i.e. Gambit, Bishop) could not be played against at all. [...] 
    Thor-Pocalypse will smoke a BRBitty team, i look for them in pick-2. Just saying.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    Kitty Daken will beat BRBitty pretty safely too.
    Everything and everyone is beatable, it's just a matter of how enjoyable the experience is... :D
    At some points, it becomes more trouble than it's worth to beat some team, and then it's "great" on defense and people can float much higher without shielding.
    If that's a level 550 five star, that's OK. But when people float high with a 4* (Bishop) or baby champ 450 5* (Hulk), there seems to be some imbalance at play.
    It's less Okoye's fault, I agree, but part of it is her WF, too.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    "there is no defense against this menace at all" and "I don't like the perfectly viable defense against this menace, so nerf them" are two fundamentally different arguments. 
    Perfectly viable defense as long as you have those 2 classic characters. 
    And always risking okoye dont gets TU.
    In the case of usin 4*, even more risk involved.
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    san said:

    Hulkoye may be meta, but it is beatable with any number of teams. Previously broken teams (and broken teams now, such as BRBitty) and characters (i.e. Gambit, Bishop) could not be played against at all. Other meta teams/characters will come around (I was around when 4*Wolverine was the ONLY way to play PVP), and will bump this team down the meta list. A nerf simply means that this process occurs quicker, and we get left with even more obsolete characters to keep in the roster (which gets pricier as you keep going). Nerfing has never been the way that problems were solved. 

    I suggest that instead we focus on making old characters better instead. 
    By a number of teams? Excuse me?

    The only reliable counter to Hulkoyoke is Kitty & BRB, thats the only team that can stop the annoying permanent instant passive AOE of Hulk and you're still gonna eat quite a bit of dmg if Okoye stacks TU or the protects get matched/destroyed.

    You cannot counter otherwise an AOE spam of minimum 6k dmg every turn on a ridiculously easy condition to meet, 8 green tiles present, yikes. Also, why not make him basically unkillable with zero conditions to meet? Great idea! And give him a red nuke for 7 AP with absurd damage!

    Someone start the "Nerf iHulk" thread because I'm all for it. Okoye is annoying but its obvious who the real problem in PVP is right now. He's everywhere, I can even queue Hulkokoye teams at like 200 pts now, a lot of people use this team and there's a reason, it's way too good on attack and way too difficult to beat.
  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
    sinnerjfl said:
    san said:

    Hulkoye may be meta, but it is beatable with any number of teams. Previously broken teams (and broken teams now, such as BRBitty) and characters (i.e. Gambit, Bishop) could not be played against at all. Other meta teams/characters will come around (I was around when 4*Wolverine was the ONLY way to play PVP), and will bump this team down the meta list. A nerf simply means that this process occurs quicker, and we get left with even more obsolete characters to keep in the roster (which gets pricier as you keep going). Nerfing has never been the way that problems were solved. 

    I suggest that instead we focus on making old characters better instead. 
    By a number of teams? Excuse me?

    The only reliable counter to Hulkoyoke is Kitty & BRB, thats the only team that can stop the annoying permanent instant passive AOE of Hulk and you're still gonna eat quite a bit of dmg if Okoye stacks TU or the protects get matched/destroyed.

    You cannot counter otherwise an AOE spam of minimum 6k dmg every turn on a ridiculously easy condition to meet, 8 green tiles present, yikes. Also, why not make him basically unkillable with zero conditions to meet? Great idea! And give him a red nuke for 7 AP with absurd damage!

    Someone start the "Nerf iHulk" thread because I'm all for it. Okoye is annoying but its obvious who the real problem in PVP is right now. He's everywhere, I can even queue Hulkokoye teams at like 200 pts now, a lot of people use this team and there's a reason, it's way too good on attack and way too difficult to beat.
    I disagree that HulkOyoe can't be beat.  What I do agree with is that (a) it requires a higher level of team than many people have and (b) it requires health packs each and every time.  That is the crux with the issue, IMHO.  Sure, I can beat HulkOyoe teams.  But I would prefer not to.  They take up my resources and I have to use two/three health packs for the next fight.  That is a waste.
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    If it takes 2 health packs every time to beat them, it's not a reliable counter and it sure as hell aint normal.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    Bad said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    "there is no defense against this menace at all" and "I don't like the perfectly viable defense against this menace, so nerf them" are two fundamentally different arguments. 
    Perfectly viable defense as long as you have those 2 classic characters. 
    And always risking okoye dont gets TU.
    In the case of usin 4*, even more risk involved.
    There is a path to obtaining both of those characters now that Throg feeds Beta Ray Bill. I was able to take my Kitty Pryde from 2/2/0 to champed through the magic of shards and feeders (3* cyclops ->Emma Frost->direct kitty shards) by spending as I go into Latest the way I usually do. So it can be done reliably if you're playing a lot. If you're not playing a lot, you probably don't have this problem, so...
  • san
    san Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2021
    Taganov said:
    So we've established Hulkoye is annoying and costly to fight, but not unbeatable. Cool.
    Still not a reason to nerf Okoye.
    This right here.... 


    Now, much like many folks don't have iHulk (and perhaps Okoye) and are thus complaining, some of us don't have the suggested teams/characters at a level that I'd need to beat other teams you've suggesterd. I, for example, have BRB @ 4 covers, Thor @ 3 covers, and only managed to champ Kitty in December 2020 after using my 7 years worth of Milestone Rewards (thank you D3 btw!). My Okoye is in the same boat, only having been champed around the time 5torm came out. In other words, I've been there where you may be. 

    What I am seeing some folks do here is basically go "I don't have that character, so you shouldn't either" mentality. Look, there were many characters over the years that I had an issue with because they seemed unbeatable. I have regularly had to remind myself that the next meta will come, and "x team" will become obsolete as well. Enjoy the game for what it is. This is not a big enough issue to break the game, and we've seen it over and over again. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    For what it's worth, I went back to my "treading water..." thread, and it took me 121 days, minus a bit of a detour chasing Danver5 of about 2-3 months, to take Kitty from 3/3/0 to champed +1 through a combination of direct shard chasing the whole 3/4/5 tree and throwing some cp into the fan favorite store that had her in it. My Emma Frost is now level 350, and I flipped-re-rostered Cyclops once.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Taganov said:
    So we've established Hulkoye is annoying and costly to fight, but not unbeatable. Cool.
    Still not a reason to nerf Okoye.
    No, in fact weve stablished hulkoye is the only one team for to play pvp and if not posible, or for facing them a britty team.
  • Sithforever
    Sithforever Posts: 145 Tile Toppler
    I skip Hulkoye in PvP until necessary to face or the rewards are too high to ignore. Trust me this team is way less annoying than Bishop based turd launchers. When the last announced nerf went through I sold my 4s for Worthy and Bishop which are now rerostered and champed. Until I had Apocalypse in my life I skipped Bishop based poop teams as much if not more than Hulkoye. Bishop got the taste smacked out of his mouth by admittedly a 5 star but one who put him down to tolerable and beatable. That being said nerf is a last resort I feel and all of these characters are beatable. I got my lunch money taken by a 5 star Thanos, Immortal Hulk team a few times last night but that was partly due to health pack greed. Okoye and Thor teams are auto hits for me so Okoye is easy in my opinion as long as you take away her teammates who abuse her passive abilities. Granted the immortal cockroach keeps coming, and only a few teams can currently answer the call for knocking him out. Nerf negates all the hard work and puts a poopy paperweight on your roster. 5Danver is a meat shield for the foreseeable future along with Bruce and Kingpin and yadda yadda yadda. We don't need more meh. I am confident that the answer to this team is going to be out sooner than later and no nerf will be needed. One of my 6 teams is Thorokoye so I fight fire with fire sometimes but usually BRB and Apocalypse keep them in check. I average 1,000+ in PvP each event so definitely understand the frustration of redundant and annoying teams but the game will always have them.
  • Bergen
    Bergen Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    edited January 2021
    have a 5* quake (a well designed one - reflecting half the total team damage? a true team healing? a skill that makes death permanent? or spams defense tiles on team damage? (would be nice with brb)...), and it will counter ihulk, problem solved. but keep in mind some chars will always be meta - will be used more, this one or that one doesnt change the fact, having more alternatives is good not having less. i would be very angry if some char is nerfed to the ground while it took me to champ that one year(s), and that happened earlier, i hope devs learned a bit from that... Lets make counters... better karma.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Bad said:
    thedarkphoenix said:
    .

    They could easily make a character that steals team up tiles and does damage based on how much a player has, and work around that. I think in recent years they kind of embrace a certain overall meta and then slowly try and shift it.


    That character would be a huge succes. And guess wich team would use it the most? Okoye teams. 

    Bishop was nerfed because his sinergy didnt let players to do their play.
    Hulkoye teams are on the same boat. When Ihulk changes the board, hyper fast okoye with just a simple 3 TU match will crush you next turn.
    And you cannot wait for her 3 turns not being in the front and losing TU because she will crush you.
    Of course there are a lot of counters, but all of them will suppose a big amount of damage being lucky on the board and a sure loss being not.
    Hulkoye teams are everywhere now and the blame is not ihulk who always is baby champed.  The blame is on hyper fast okoye boosting to death AoE.
    So, if my suggestion was a slight nerf, is because in no game is posible to rule pvp without even developing further the boosted character. And no new 5* will be better than those 2, at this pace.
    D   

    That's fine, said character could be squish, could be mostly support or could convert 2 green tiles to team up tiles at the start of its turns. 

    Even when none of that I'd just play brb and kitty vs it or something else of the sort.


    Truthfully there should be an abundance of counter play like this and I think the game is slowly getting there, they just need to be more aggressive with hard counters.

    There are number of 4 characters that could be hard counters to 5 that are 4 for some odd reason.

    Elsa bloodstone is a good exampe of a character that could be a 5 that would play well with other 5's while counter other 5's Magneto, ihulk, yellowjacket. . Tea break at 6 ap would  put a big dent hulk/okoye.

    Frog thor  another character would be great as a 5, etc etc....


  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,973 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rosraf said:
    Yeah, I started playing in 2014. 

    Add me to the list of players who leave if Okoye gets nerfed.

    Okoye adds more "quality of life" value than any other character, ever (by a lot).  And Okoye makes about 20-30 other characters useful who would otherwise be forgotten, wasted roster slots. 
    There should MORE characters like Okoye. 

    *Emphasis mine*

    I think this is the crux of the issue. She is an outlier whose existence devalues a lot of other characters:

    Tony_Foot said:
    Bad said:

    About this character, is a good work and he can hit hard in the future. 
    My five star roster is littered with such characters. Where I’ve pulled on the advice that they will be good in the future. You know how many of them I’ve revisited since, none. Unless you are a collector there’s zero reason to pull for this or Adam in the hope they get good later. Save the pulls for the hope of something meta or truly top tier and if by some complete miracle they become useful there will be a vault to get them later down the road.

    I pull for meta or as good as and the only person I’ve ever regretted missing is Clint when he became part of the cap meta. Over half the 5* I have, I regret getting more than one cover for, what I should have done is get more okoye.
    Originally from: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/944753/#Comment_944753

    For me, it isn't so much an issue of whether or not she is easy to beat, but rather that the meta so heavily favors passive boost abilities that it elevates passive-boost character types to the detriment of other characters and play styles.  Whenever a new character is released, their value is almost always tied to how well they interact with either Okoye or Kitty.
    I do not think this is good for the overall health of the game.

    I understand that in order to encourage spending, certain characters have to appear more desirable than others. It's no mystery as to why Okoye and Kitty featured so prominently in number of stores over the last couple of years. The problem though is that they have been left for the most part unchecked.

    Both have designed limiting factors: if Okoye isn't in front, she burns a TU. For Kitty, there needs to be at least 4 special tiles (1 less for each X-men team member).  The problem is there is an easy work around for the designed limiter in Okoye's case: make her your tank to reduce the possibility of TU burn.

    Personally, I would have liked to have seen more nuance in the implementation of booster type characters, mainly tying such abilities to affiliations, with wider more general affiliations like Heroes/Villains getting a minor boost while more specific team affiliations like X-men, Avengers, etc getting major boosts. We see this to a minor extent with some characters but I have always found it puzzling (no pun intended) why the dev team has only dipped its toes in the utilization of affiliations.
    If they had made greater use of affiliations, you would see a lot more fidelity to comic lore in MPQ. Instead we end up with strange, sometimes befuddling,  pairings. It has always struck me as odd that Okoye, Warrior General of Wakanda, has rather poor synergy with 5* Black Panther while T'Challa's best partner in the 5* tier is Thanos.

    Ideally, I would have loved to seen more attention paid to building strong faction types that encouraged synergy between star tiers. You do see this to some extent with the Spider-verse family since their abilities are tied heavily to the web tile mechanics but that's about it.

    But that boat has sailed it seems and I feel I have deviated a bit from the main point.

    Getting back to the main issue, this is the second time a pairing featured Okoye has been called out as being OP. The first was Okoye/Thor. If things are left as they are, this will not be the last time she will be featured in another supposed OP pairing.

    There are many competitive players that have gone out of their way to build their Okoye's up to a high level to ensure they can easily exploit her boost (myself included) thus negating her limiting factor. Which means for competitive play in PVP it mainly boils down to:

    High level booster type character (Okoye, Kitty)  +  character with easily exploitable skill (iHulk, BRB) = win

    I don't think this makes for compelling, interesting game play and encourage the dev team to at the very least introduce hard counters to booster type characters  (a few do exist against Kitty).

    Unfortunately, I will have to end on that note as my lunch break is over.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    As long as she is beatable, I don't think there is anything wrong with a character like this. If they want to break the passive meta up, there are very easy ways to introduce new hotness to add variety without nerfing anybody. Surely the number of people who have 550 Okoyes pales in comparison to the number of players who don't (mine is 452, i'm on that champ-em-all plan), so there can't be THAT many people punching down.

    I do agree that there have been a lot of 4*s that would have been way more useful for this if they had 5* health that have been released of late; I'm not sure why that is. Magneto could be fixed today to be an anti-hulk. Just stealth buff him like they stealth nerfed Danver5.
  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    Personally I think she should be stronger with better teammates available in the future . For example, a 5* Forbush Man with a power of “ whenever you match your strongest color gain 1 team up ( or 2 if level to 5). 
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