Nerf Okoye

san

Zalasta said:

<SNIP. CL10 should be difficult. As it is, it's still not really a challenge for level 550 rosters.

This has the flavour of "you're supposed to lose" comments from a few years ago (Apoc team event, IIRC). 

This game should be fun. While challenges of the puzzle variety (see the holiday human torch event)are entertaining,  continuous  beatdowns by overscaled, overpowered characters which you need to grind (think about that word for a moment) are not entertainment in my opinion. Those playing with level 550 characters rarely need the rewards that CL10 gives. Ergo, CL10 should not be catered to those players solely, but to a variety of individuals transitioning form 4 to 5 star rosters. It should not be insurmountable by any means. 

Note, I am not saying that there should be no difficult games - that's part of the fun. What I am saying is that it improperly scales, thus making Okoye a bit of a necessity if you don't wish to spend the whole day playing the same match 3 over and over and over... Perhaps the answer is in reward structure. To be honest, putting CL10 rewards in CL9 would work just fine, in my opinion. Another option is to leave CL10 scaling as it, but reduce it to a max level (650) node that you only need to beat once (or twice if you wish for the competition element) for the full progression reward, rather than 3-4 as it stands. However, I know that they will not do this, or if they do, will undoubtedly introduce some kind of trade off that would be detrimental to the player base. 

Michael1957

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Seems like some of y'all may have gotten your wish; I saw someone in the patch notes thread saying Okoye's yellow can no longer be fired when she's at full health (not an official patch note)

*Edit* - I got the update, and was able to fire Okoye's yellow off at full health on 2 different nodes in Infinite Pursuit, so this may be misinformation.

It happened to me, I wanted to add TU at full health and it blocked it with the message “Okoye is already at full health “

ThaRoadWarrior

Was the rest of the board full of specials? Because I tested it on 3 different nodes at full health with no problem.

killahKlown

That would have to be the most pointless "nerf" ever.  

Theghouse

san said:

Zalasta said:

<SNIP. CL10 should be difficult. As it is, it's still not really a challenge for level 550 rosters.

This has the flavour of "you're supposed to lose" comments from a few years ago (Apoc team event, IIRC). 

This game should be fun. While challenges of the puzzle variety (see the holiday human torch event)are entertaining,  continuous  beatdowns by overscaled, overpowered characters which you need to grind (think about that word for a moment) are not entertainment in my opinion. Those playing with level 550 characters rarely need the rewards that CL10 gives. Ergo, CL10 should not be catered to those players solely, but to a variety of individuals transitioning form 4 to 5 star rosters. It should not be insurmountable by any means. 

Note, I am not saying that there should be no difficult games - that's part of the fun. What I am saying is that it improperly scales, thus making Okoye a bit of a necessity if you don't wish to spend the whole day playing the same match 3 over and over and over... Perhaps the answer is in reward structure. To be honest, putting CL10 rewards in CL9 would work just fine, in my opinion. Another option is to leave CL10 scaling as it, but reduce it to a max level (650) node that you only need to beat once (or twice if you wish for the competition element) for the full progression reward, rather than 3-4 as it stands. However, I know that they will not do this, or if they do, will undoubtedly introduce some kind of trade off that would be detrimental to the player base. 

I think the SCLs are right where they need to be.  SCL 10 isn't really for those still building 5*; the enemies get up to twice the level of a mid-champed 4* or half-leveled 5*.  SCL 9 is more that speed.  SCL 10 was really designed for 5* champ players, specifically those looking for a bigger challenge for their powerful rosters.  It is not really catered to 550 players because it is still a walk in the park for them, just a slightly longer walk in the park than the lower SCLs.  If they were to make SCL 11 with enemies up to 850, that would be designed to truly challenge 550s, and because there are so few players at that level, I don't expect to ever see it.

As someone who has been playing SCL 10 with two 5* champs for only the last few months, I really enjoy the challenge node where there is a legitimate threat that I might lose.  Even in SCL 10, after champing a couple 5*s I don't get that level of challenge very often any more.

Michael1957

I agree with the previous post. SCL 9 is too easy with 1 or 2 key 5*,  10 is very challenging. I realize it’s mostly for whales playing 7 years spending tons of money , but I enjoy the challenge of not just walking over every opponent. That’s not an enjoyable game if the outcome is already 99.9% predetermined. I can’t even believe players with 5 or more 5* prior to the release of SCL 10 would even have stuck around to play such a boring game , I know I would have quit as the embarrassment  of no challenge in battle would have sent me packing . I realize there will be always be 12th graders beating up 4th graders somewhere, I just can’t understand it though .

san

Theghouse said:

san said:

Zalasta said:

<SNIP. CL10 should be difficult. As it is, it's still not really a challenge for level 550 rosters.

This has the flavour of "you're supposed to lose" comments from a few years ago (Apoc team event, IIRC). 

This game should be fun. While challenges of the puzzle variety (see the holiday human torch event)are entertaining,  continuous  beatdowns by overscaled, overpowered characters which you need to grind (think about that word for a moment) are not entertainment in my opinion. Those playing with level 550 characters rarely need the rewards that CL10 gives. Ergo, CL10 should not be catered to those players solely, but to a variety of individuals transitioning form 4 to 5 star rosters. It should not be insurmountable by any means. 

Note, I am not saying that there should be no difficult games - that's part of the fun. What I am saying is that it improperly scales, thus making Okoye a bit of a necessity if you don't wish to spend the whole day playing the same match 3 over and over and over... Perhaps the answer is in reward structure. To be honest, putting CL10 rewards in CL9 would work just fine, in my opinion. Another option is to leave CL10 scaling as it, but reduce it to a max level (650) node that you only need to beat once (or twice if you wish for the competition element) for the full progression reward, rather than 3-4 as it stands. However, I know that they will not do this, or if they do, will undoubtedly introduce some kind of trade off that would be detrimental to the player base. 

I think the SCLs are right where they need to be.  SCL 10 isn't really for those still building 5*; the enemies get up to twice the level of a mid-champed 4* or half-leveled 5*.  SCL 9 is more that speed.  SCL 10 was really designed for 5* champ players, specifically those looking for a bigger challenge for their powerful rosters.  It is not really catered to 550 players because it is still a walk in the park for them, just a slightly longer walk in the park than the lower SCLs.  If they were to make SCL 11 with enemies up to 850, that would be designed to truly challenge 550s, and because there are so few players at that level, I don't expect to ever see it.

As someone who has been playing SCL 10 with two 5* champs for only the last few months, I really enjoy the challenge node where there is a legitimate threat that I might lose.  Even in SCL 10, after champing a couple 5*s I don't get that level of challenge very often any more.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or perhaps I did not say it as clearly. While SCL10 was designed with the difficulty in mind for high level 5* players, the REWARD structure should be applied to SCL9 (or optionally, SCL10 difficulty scaled down). The rewards in SCL10 are what I imagine 4* players transitioning to 5* need, ESPECIALLY the progression rewards. 

Xair

nerf lovers unite.
support the call to nerf each meta char recursively until Bruce banner becomes meta.
cause only then will, all nerf lovers, be satisfied that all the chars are sufficiently nerfed.

or better yet, just nerf the 5* tier completely, 4* are more diverse anyway, why do we even need 5*?

on second thought why stop with 5*? nerf everything. nerf every char in the game. 

or even better, make nerf a part of the game. every char will gradually get a nerf every few weeks, 
cause we love nerfs so much we just nee to see them happen all the time.

i think i can one up even that, maybe we need to nerf other things not just chars, nerf rewards, nerf store content, nerf screens....

omg i have the ultimate idea, nerf the forum.

Theghouse

san said:

Theghouse said:

san said:

Zalasta said:

<SNIP. CL10 should be difficult. As it is, it's still not really a challenge for level 550 rosters.

This has the flavour of "you're supposed to lose" comments from a few years ago (Apoc team event, IIRC). 

This game should be fun. While challenges of the puzzle variety (see the holiday human torch event)are entertaining,  continuous  beatdowns by overscaled, overpowered characters which you need to grind (think about that word for a moment) are not entertainment in my opinion. Those playing with level 550 characters rarely need the rewards that CL10 gives. Ergo, CL10 should not be catered to those players solely, but to a variety of individuals transitioning form 4 to 5 star rosters. It should not be insurmountable by any means. 

Note, I am not saying that there should be no difficult games - that's part of the fun. What I am saying is that it improperly scales, thus making Okoye a bit of a necessity if you don't wish to spend the whole day playing the same match 3 over and over and over... Perhaps the answer is in reward structure. To be honest, putting CL10 rewards in CL9 would work just fine, in my opinion. Another option is to leave CL10 scaling as it, but reduce it to a max level (650) node that you only need to beat once (or twice if you wish for the competition element) for the full progression reward, rather than 3-4 as it stands. However, I know that they will not do this, or if they do, will undoubtedly introduce some kind of trade off that would be detrimental to the player base. 

I think the SCLs are right where they need to be.  SCL 10 isn't really for those still building 5*; the enemies get up to twice the level of a mid-champed 4* or half-leveled 5*.  SCL 9 is more that speed.  SCL 10 was really designed for 5* champ players, specifically those looking for a bigger challenge for their powerful rosters.  It is not really catered to 550 players because it is still a walk in the park for them, just a slightly longer walk in the park than the lower SCLs.  If they were to make SCL 11 with enemies up to 850, that would be designed to truly challenge 550s, and because there are so few players at that level, I don't expect to ever see it.

As someone who has been playing SCL 10 with two 5* champs for only the last few months, I really enjoy the challenge node where there is a legitimate threat that I might lose.  Even in SCL 10, after champing a couple 5*s I don't get that level of challenge very often any more.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or perhaps I did not say it as clearly. While SCL10 was designed with the difficulty in mind for high level 5* players, the REWARD structure should be applied to SCL9 (or optionally, SCL10 difficulty scaled down). The rewards in SCL10 are what I imagine 4* players transitioning to 5* need, ESPECIALLY the progression rewards. 

Yeah, I did not get that intended message from your previous post.  I was under the impression your post was in reference to the difficulty level and what rosters can play at that level.

I wouldn't disagree about reward structure, I'm all for players getting rewards, and people trying to transition to 5* absolutely would benefit from the huge difference in 4* and 5* shards in SCL10.  But devs and money and blah blah blah...

Akoni

Xair said:

nerf lovers unite.
support the call to nerf each meta char recursively until Bruce banner becomes meta.
cause only then will, all nerf lovers, be satisfied that all the chars are sufficiently nerfed.

or better yet, just nerf the 5* tier completely, 4* are more diverse anyway, why do we even need 5*?

on second thought why stop with 5*? nerf everything. nerf every char in the game. 

or even better, make nerf a part of the game. every char will gradually get a nerf every few weeks, 
cause we love nerfs so much we just nee to see them happen all the time.

i think i can one up even that, maybe we need to nerf other things not just chars, nerf rewards, nerf store content, nerf screens....

omg i have the ultimate idea, nerf the forum.

A game all about nerfing? Sign me up. It does kinda sound like the Marvel Universe. 
"This character is too powerful. Let's have them perish is some weird ambiguous way."
"Oh no, people actually liked that character. Let's bring them back, but mysteriously less powerful."

Jokes aside. Would a game based on nerfing characters even work? Hmm...

Bad

Xair said:

nerf lovers unite.
support the call to nerf each meta char recursively until Bruce banner becomes meta.
cause only then will, all nerf lovers, be satisfied that all the chars are sufficiently nerfed.

Pretty funny.
Okoye is a classic who accomplish some big features on the 5* tier with WF:
-Having her hyper leveled she will never had a handicap on her hyper fast skill
-Having her hyper leveled her boost is huge and too fast and always will be abused on AoE passive characters 
-Any new 5* release is judged by his passive and for not be too hard for okoye tanking him
-On pvp she features an abusive meta when its too taxing to hit hulkoye teams, like the metas previously nerfed.
Any game needs to change characters when its proved that there is no better team. WF should be rebalanced for a healthy game. Making it slower and able to play optimally at any level. Would you call it a nerf? Then be it.
Oh, no wait! We cannot touch okoye because she is pretty popular.
Nice argument.  And OML, gambit, cap worthy,and bishop were not lol.

Xair said:

omg i have the ultimate idea, nerf the forum.

Sorry your ultimate idea comes late, there was a time when the forum was nerfed. It was a time when all the post were for destructive complaining and insulting devs. That time luckily is on the past and the forum is providing valuable feedback.  And I must say the game has improved a lot since then.

SnowcaTT

Xair said:

nerf lovers unite.
support the call to nerf each meta char recursively until Bruce banner becomes meta.
cause only then will, all nerf lovers, be satisfied that all the chars are sufficiently nerfed.

or better yet, just nerf the 5* tier completely, 4* are more diverse anyway, why do we even need 5*?

on second thought why stop with 5*? nerf everything. nerf every char in the game. 

or even better, make nerf a part of the game. every char will gradually get a nerf every few weeks, 
cause we love nerfs so much we just nee to see them happen all the time.

i think i can one up even that, maybe we need to nerf other things not just chars, nerf rewards, nerf store content, nerf screens....

omg i have the ultimate idea, nerf the forum.

I think the VERY FIRST comment after the OP (who I happen to know) was mine that said

"Nerf everyone until Wasp is good, then nerf wasp"

But for some reason that comment was deleted

Michael1957

Bad said:

Xair said:

nerf lovers unite.
support the call to nerf each meta char recursively until Bruce banner becomes meta.
cause only then will, all nerf lovers, be satisfied that all the chars are sufficiently nerfed.

Pretty funny.
Okoye is a classic who accomplish some big features on the 5* tier with WF:
-Having her hyper leveled she will never had a handicap on her hyper fast skill
-Having her hyper leveled her boost is huge and too fast and always will be abused on AoE passive characters 
-Any new 5* release is judged by his passive and for not be too hard for okoye tanking him
-On pvp she features an abusive meta when its too taxing to hit hulkoye teams, like the metas previously nerfed.
Any game needs to change characters when its proved that there is no better team. WF should be rebalanced for a healthy game. Making it slower and able to play optimally at any level. Would you call it a nerf? Then be it.
Oh, no wait! We cannot touch okoye because she is pretty popular.
Nice argument.  And OML, gambit, cap worthy,and bishop were not lol.

Xair said:

omg i have the ultimate idea, nerf the forum.

Sorry your ultimate idea comes late, there was a time when the forum was nerfed. It was a time when all the post were for destructive complaining and insulting devs. That time luckily is on the past and the forum is providing valuable feedback.  And I must say the game has improved a lot since then.

Is this sarcasm ? Because it’s hilarious if so.  Maybe the only posts I can read are before the nerf and I didn’t get the forum update . 

acescracked

Michael1957 said:

I agree with the previous post. SCL 9 is too easy with 1 or 2 key 5*,  10 is very challenging. I realize it’s mostly for whales playing 7 years spending tons of money , but I enjoy the challenge of not just walking over every opponent. That’s not an enjoyable game if the outcome is already 99.9% predetermined. I can’t even believe players with 5 or more 5* prior to the release of SCL 10 would even have stuck around to play such a boring game , I know I would have quit as the embarrassment  of no challenge in battle would have sent me packing . I realize there will be always be 12th graders beating up 4th graders somewhere, I just can’t understand it though .

What about 7 year players who don't spend any money? What's our label since "whale" doesn't apply. (I hit day 2555 in 2 days)

Pve is what you play to grow your roster to compete in PvP where the real game is. Because of that "whales" would've still played pve without cl10 for the CP, HP, LT's in placement (player/Alliance) and yes even 4* covers for champ levels.

CL10 pve does bring an added challenge for 550 rosters in placement competition. In Line app there are discussions on how to go as fast as possible and which supports to use, boosts. Human nature to try and win. Big rosters sometimes do play cl9 from time to time because sometimes you need a break and want to move tiles mindlessly but get some rewards. Always hated the forum view that players shouldn't go down in cl's. Many posts really guess at how top end pve is played and you guys get it wrong alot.

 Oh, I'm pretty sure that ursopro opened his one liner post as a joke post messing around. People here take the bait and it's gone viral.with 10 pages! 😄😀

san

acescracked said:

....What about 7 year players who don't spend any money? What's our label since "whale" doesn't apply. (I hit day 2555 in 2 days) <SNIP>

This is the exact boat I am in... I am at 2200 some odd days and counting. I do not qualify as a whale by any measure. My measly 10 champed 5*s are all in the 450 range (464 is my highest, I believe), and none of my 4* have hit max champ yet (I'm at 345 with Kingpin, who has been on favourite along with Bullseye since the feature came out).

I've sunk $50 over the life of the game, in a single transaction to roster and cover XFW back when he was the only way to play. I got burned on his nerf a short while later. Due to the unpredictable nature of this game, I never spent a penny since. Funny thing is, if XFW was still the way he used to be, he would be a reasonable choice in the current meta though not overpowered, as would 4Thor, 2* Wolverine, 2*mags/3* mystique combo, and many others who ended up getting screwed over with nerfs. Nerfing is NOT the answer folks, just a bandaid solution. 

JaGo

acescracked said:

 Oh, I'm pretty sure that ursopro opened his one liner post as a joke post messing around. People here take the bait and it's gone viral.with 10 pages! 😄😀

A few of us very early on speculated that the OP was trolling. My post in particular was completely removed by a forum moderator as off topic, so this post may also be censored.

On topic, Okoye should not be changed in any way shape or form. It’s simply just not necessary.

-JaGo

DAZ0273

acescracked said:

Michael1957 said:

I agree with the previous post. SCL 9 is too easy with 1 or 2 key 5*,  10 is very challenging. I realize it’s mostly for whales playing 7 years spending tons of money , but I enjoy the challenge of not just walking over every opponent. That’s not an enjoyable game if the outcome is already 99.9% predetermined. I can’t even believe players with 5 or more 5* prior to the release of SCL 10 would even have stuck around to play such a boring game , I know I would have quit as the embarrassment  of no challenge in battle would have sent me packing . I realize there will be always be 12th graders beating up 4th graders somewhere, I just can’t understand it though .

What about 7 year players who don't spend any money? What's our label since "whale" doesn't apply. (I hit day 2555 in 2 days)

Pve is what you play to grow your roster to compete in PvP where the real game is. Because of that "whales" would've still played pve without cl10 for the CP, HP, LT's in placement (player/Alliance) and yes even 4* covers for champ levels.

CL10 pve does bring an added challenge for 550 rosters in placement competition. In Line app there are discussions on how to go as fast as possible and which supports to use, boosts. Human nature to try and win. Big rosters sometimes do play cl9 from time to time because sometimes you need a break and want to move tiles mindlessly but get some rewards. Always hated the forum view that players shouldn't go down in cl's. Many posts really guess at how top end pve is played and you guys get it wrong alot.

 Oh, I'm pretty sure that ursopro opened his one liner post as a joke post messing around. People here take the bait and it's gone viral.with 10 pages! 😄😀

It was a fine level of baiting by ursopro, I am just surprised we didn't get the JJJ Gif. 😀

Bad

The intentions of the autor of this post are irrelevant to me as I stated my position cristaly clear.
But if something happens to okoye then you know who would be the one to blame 

fight4thedream

JaGo said:

acescracked said:

 Oh, I'm pretty sure that ursopro opened his one liner post as a joke post messing around. People here take the bait and it's gone viral.with 10 pages! 😄😀

A few of us very early on speculated that the OP was trolling. My post in particular was completely removed by a forum moderator as off topic, so this post may also be censored.

On topic, Okoye should not be changed in any way shape or form. It’s simply just not necessary.

-JaGo

To be clear, we have a policy against calling other users "troll" as 1.) it contributes nothing to the conversation and 2.) is often used to belittle the ideas of others. In that respect, using the term "troll" could be interpreted as insulting another forum user which is grounds for a warning.  This is why we discourage the use of the term. If you suspect a user of trolling, you can contact a forum moderator with your concern.

Although I think the old adage "Don't feed the trolls" is usually the most appropriate way to handle such situations.

Back on topic, I think this has been a worthwhile discussion. To summarize:

There is general agreement that Okoye is the most useful character in the game.

There's disagreement on whether she is too good with basically three arguments on the table:

Argument 1: She is too good and should be nerfed.
Argument 2: She is fine as is and should be left as is.
Argument 3: The game needs better counter mechanics and characters to address her dominance of the meta.

Let's go over the finer points of each argument:

Argument 1: She is too good and should be nerfed.

• She has a ubiquitous influence on top level competitive play in both PvE and PvP
• Having one high level Okoye is more useful than having other maxed champed 5* characters

Primary concern: Monotonous game play since she is considered the best option for both PvE and PvP and redundancy of other 5* characters

Argument 2: She is fine as is and should be left as is

• She is easy to beat on defense (when not paired with a character that has passive damage abilities)
• Many players have invested a lot of resources in leveling up their Okoye, nerfing her will lead to many people leaving the game
• She increases match speed and greatly aids players in higher CLs 

Primary concern: Any nerf will have a net negative effect on the player base who rely on her for PvE and have invested a lot of resources leveling her up

Argument 3: The game needs better counter mechanics and characters to address her dominance of the meta

• There aren't enough strong counter characters to deal effectively with Okoye's abilities
• A lot of players purposefully make Okoye their highest character to by pass her limiter by having her tank as much as possible
  
• A new character's value is often determined by how well they interact with booster-type characters like Okoye, among which she is considered the best

Primary concern: As on outlier, she has a negative effect on game balance since abilities to counter act her own are few and far between. She ends up being the best character in terms of effectiveness and efficiency for too many situations.

I fall into argument 3. I don't think she needs to be nerfed but I do believe she needs to be reined in a bit, at least for PvP. And as always, I would prefer that be done with good counter mechanics. Admittedly, BRB/Kitty is effective against Okoye/iHulk and Onslaught offers some decent counter measures by removing TUs from the board but considering her continued dominance of the PvP meta, I think it's clear it's not enough.

As I stated in a previous post, I would like to see her follow the same path that 5* Thor has taken which is mainly a meta shift that discourages the use of the character in PvP.  Many players still rely on him for PvE which I think is fine.

I just would prefer that PvP and PvE meta not be dominated by the same character. Obviously as @DeNappa pointed out, that's difficult since both rely heavily on speed if played competitively but I think with the arrival of BRB and Onslaught, PvP has branched out more into defensive mechanics.

To the dev's credit, PvP has grown more diverse in terms of viable teams that can be played competitively. Here's hoping that continues.

Polares

I think that is a good summary @fight4thedream

I really think Hulkoye is just one "good counter / good char" release to just be a team of the past. Just imagine YJ with a passive on his black "chars killed by this char can not resurrect" and the Hulkoye team would be easily countered already (as once Hulk is dead Okoye would be useless against YJ).