Nerf Okoye

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    I will again just put out there that as long as there is level parity in the opposition, I think Okoye is perfectly fine. If you are getting inappropriately matched up against 550s and you have a 450, the problem is in the matchmaking not the character.

    for PVE, SCLs could be changed to lock out characters above a certain level. That way you don’t have people punching down with max-champs. You then target the roster, rather than the player with SCL gating. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The real challenge is not nerfing Okoye, but changing the mentality of those players who need to do things optimally or maximise their "returns" on every move they take.

    Such mentality is passed down to new players where advices given to them is to champ R4G, Dr Strang3, Okoye, Kitty Pryde first to "speed up" their progress. Nobody has time to use non-meta characters because they are slow. Because of this kind of advices which are widespread in the forums, and further spread among alliances, over time, we are seeing the same typical teams when we reach a certain point in PvPs. Imagine a world where advices given to MPQ players is to explore the different types of game mechanic available in the game, and then finding those they like, instead of defaulting to R4G, Polaris or Okoye. 

    One of the factors that contribute to the above is because players think their times are precious and they shouldn't spent x amount of the time on the game to get the best rewards available to them. Naturally, the best rewards require more effort and/or time. Instead of adjusting their expectations, they force themselves to play higher SCLs and continue to complain about why they only have time to use iHulkoye or the top few meta 5* everywhere. And we get the "MPQ is all about speed" justification. 

    I agree that even if Okoye is nerfed, Apocalypse will simply take her place because he is the second in line. He's going to appear in PvPs  everywhere. One of the recent unique pvps proved just that.

    So, as long as players continue to use speed, damage/ap, damage/turn, time spent per match as their only guide to determine whether a character is "usable" or not, things will continue to remain as it is. 



  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    Two problems I’ve got with her are 
    1) Her battles are so fast if she cascades you don’t even get a chance to collect enough yellow AP to heal her. 4 or 5 turns is too fast to win.
    2) Others in my alliance who followed my advice and champed Okoye first too quickly haven’t reached SCL 10 yet and she makes lower levels completely boring now using her as she never loses and takes almost zero net damage . They can’t even use 3 health packs required usually in daily milestones . The battles are a massacre and playing has become boring and monotonous. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Michael1957 said:
    Two problems I’ve got with her are 
    1) Her battles are so fast if she cascades you don’t even get a chance to collect enough yellow AP to heal her. 4 or 5 turns is too fast to win.
    2) Others in my alliance who followed my advice and champed Okoye first too quickly haven’t reached SCL 10 yet and she makes lower levels completely boring now using her as she never loses and takes almost zero net damage . They can’t even use 3 health packs required usually in daily milestones . The battles are a massacre and playing has become boring and monotonous. 
    That just proves that she is too good fast and broken when it comes to boost passives when she is tanking.
    HoundofShadow said:
    The real challenge is not nerfing Okoye, but changing the mentality of those players who need to do things optimally or maximise their "returns" on every move they take.


    I agree that even if Okoye is nerfed, Apocalypse will simply take her place because he is the second in line. He's going to appear in PvPs  everywhere.



    Yes the mentality of players will drive them to start a big uproar if she is touched, even without prove the change first.

    I disagree. Apocalypse is slow and well balanced so he will not broke the meta. As I said  before apocalypse usually boost Ihulk on turn 6 or 7. Also apocalypse is not the best partner for Ihulk when he releases protects.
    If she is rebalanced in a good way she will still be the best booster. But her speed doesnt leaves time to reaction in this meta.
    If she is not rebalanced no matter how many anti counters characters will be released, all players will use the hulkoye team being proved is the better. 
    And no AoE characters can be released because of her.
    Right now on pvp on my tier with 1000 points I usually get among T25. That means less people willing to try all rewards.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards
    y’all are describing players who would play up if they could, but they are locked out. This still sounds like an issue with SCLs to me, not that character. 
  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    ammenell said:
    this thread of nerfing a years old character is still up?

    what a joke. go ahead and nerf her. 
    after all the time collecting her I'm just looking for a reason to stop playing...

    why stop with okoye, why not nerf the rest of the meta? 
    kitty starts boosting when she has her new cd out, which costs 25ap
    apoc kills himself if he doesn't have a repeater out by turn 3, brbs yellow doesn't generate ap anymore and his blue costs 12ap, Polaris passive doesn't multiply specials, Thanos blacks self damage doubled,...

    let's make every match last 30mins!
    awesome idea! 
    This is probably not necessary because the OP most likely has all the other mentioned metas champed and is only lacking Okoye . 
  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2021
    let's get that spear of wakanda then - a cover for only 30 Euro. 

    wait a week, another cover for 30 euros. 
    repeat 5-10 times. 

    then nerf her. 
  • Rosraf
    Rosraf Posts: 113 Tile Toppler
    ammenell said:
    let's get that spear of wakanda then - a cover for only 30 Euro. 

    wait a week, another cover for 30 euros. 
    repeat 5-10 times. 

    then nerf her. 
    Yeah, this an actual real life example of how nerfs hurt.  I would totally buy Spear of Wakanda package, but for I'm weary they will just nerf Okoye, making it a wasted purchase. 
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    y’all are describing players who would play up if they could, but they are locked out. This still sounds like an issue with SCLs to me, not that character. 

    I don't think it's a problem w/ SCLs or the character.
    Most likely, they couldn't compete at SCL10 even if they had access. The jump from 9-10 is fairly precipitous. These sound like 4* players who heavily prioritized 1 or 2 select 5s, or soft cap their 5s. If it's too easy/fast/boring to use over leveled meta teams, perhaps don't?
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rosraf said:
    Yeah, this an actual real life example of how nerfs hurt.  I would totally buy Spear of Wakanda package, but for I'm weary they will just nerf Okoye, making it a wasted purchase. 
    Who knows it? Bets are on the table :D
    Come on, lets be realistics here: if okoye goes for a change it would be a rebalance, not a nerf.

  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    Taganov said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    y’all are describing players who would play up if they could, but they are locked out. This still sounds like an issue with SCLs to me, not that character. 

    I don't think it's a problem w/ SCLs or the character.
    Most likely, they couldn't compete at SCL10 even if they had access. The jump from 9-10 is fairly precipitous. These sound like 4* players who heavily prioritized 1 or 2 select 5s, or soft cap their 5s. If it's too easy/fast/boring to use over leveled meta teams, perhaps don't?
    I graduated to 120 SCL 10 in July with her as my only 5*, no other above 7 covers . I was scared the first few weeks based on what I read here . But she is the essential power boost to every other character so even the huge jump in difficulty took only about a month to adapt to winning comfortably. So yes, you can compete easily with just her in SCL 10 and playing smart . I’ve champed every new 5* release since July easily because the rewards are so much greater on that level . It’s definitely doable , and in 6 months you have a more diversified and stronger roster . I know I’d be stuck on 9 forever without her.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    I think that's the problem with "only players' times are precious" viewpoint. On the other side of the equation, we have the developer and publisher. However, their pov/needs/goals are almost always ignored or laughed at. They are supposed to do things the way that fit players' lifestyles, while ignoring their goals. No compromise is allowed. 

    Currently, I believe 550 players spend about 20 to 25 minutes for clearing scl 10 pves. These players are those who get the best placement rewards. The vibe I've been getting from small spenders and/or non-competitive players is that they want to progress as fast as whales/550 players, but they refuse to put in as much effort, time or money as them because of their real life commitments or their viewpoints on how MPQ should be.

    You see, this is an expectation problem: "My time and money are precious, but I still want to get the best rewards possible, and progress as fast as possible or as fast as the whales/competitive players. So, I force myself to player higher SCL (10) because it gives better rewards. However, the time spent is too much for me."  So, their feedbacks typically centre around distributing placement rewards into progression rewards, do away with time-based pves and reduce the number of clears/grinds from the current 3/2 to 1/1 or 1/0. When this happens, whales will finish in 10 minutes, and baby champed 5* players finish in ~20 minutes. 

    So, this self-centered viewpoint contributes to what we are seeing in pvps today, and also contributes to how majority of 5* released is a letdown because of "We shouldn't spend x amount of time to get the best rewards in MPQ; therefore, speed is our only factor to determine new characters' usability". Overall, such ideas are unhealthy. Fortunately, the dev has been quite adamant about their stands; that's probably why MPQ lasted for 7 years, and is still running.
  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2021
    Bad said:
    Rosraf said:
    Yeah, this an actual real life example of how nerfs hurt.  I would totally buy Spear of Wakanda package, but for I'm weary they will just nerf Okoye, making it a wasted purchase. 
    Who knows it? Bets are on the table :D
    Come on, lets be realistics here: if okoye goes for a change it would be a rebalance, not a nerf.

    by my definition of rebalance, a character is getting changed.
    whatever change that is, it's either a nerf or a buff. 

    with the last few rebalances im willing to bet my house, my car and my cats that a nerf, which will destroy her as a players option, will come with an option to sell her.

    but it's all definition, and everyone has its own. in your definition it's no nerf if okoye starts boosting at turn 4, so... 
  • Timemachinego
    Timemachinego Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    HoundofShadow said:
    Currently, I believe 550 players spend about 20 to 25 minutes for clearing scl 10 pves. These players are those who get the best placement rewards. The vibe I've been getting from small spenders and/or non-competitive players is that they want to progress as fast as whales/550 players, but they refuse to put in as much effort, time or money as them because of their real life commitments or their viewpoints on how MPQ should be.

    You see, this is an expectation problem: "My time and money are precious, but I still want to get the best rewards possible, and progress as fast as possible or as fast as the whales/competitive players. So, I force myself to player higher SCL (10) because it gives better rewards. However, the time spent is too much for me."  So, their feedbacks typically centre around distributing placement rewards into progression rewards, do away with time-based pves and reduce the number of clears/grinds from the current 3/2 to 1/1 or 1/0. When this happens, whales will finish in 10 minutes, and baby champed 5* players finish in ~20 minutes.

    I wanted to chime in as a 4* player who's been on for a bit under a year and feels pretty misrepresented by this entire quote. I'll go ahead and get the "this guy is whining" parts out of the way, I don't have a functional Okoye or even access to SCL 10 at this point (probably a month out). Do with that knowledge as you wish.
    The biggest issue I see with 10 is the HUGE disparity in rewards between it and 9. 9 isn't even worth playing in if it's a push for your roster but you're comfortable at 8. It strictly creates a "rich get richer" environment for even those of us that do work (or spend) hard but can't hack it in 10 yet because of the immense disproportionality of what we get for our time. I had no idea how steep the divide was until I was talking with some alliance mates and learned that 10 players don't even have to worry about accruing CP or LL's to remain competitive for the new 5 because you just about get it handed to you for even bothering to log on!
    Now.... how does this lead back to Okoye? I'm against nerfing, but it's important to point out that they created a single character who is the barrier to entry to top level play and have made nothing as good since. Instead, nearly every good character is just improved by her. Newer players are going to be saying the same thing I am, but about Polaris. The difference is that the path to 4 is pretty darn smooth at this point if you do your research, 5 is not.
  • T_REZ5000
    T_REZ5000 Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    Timemachinego said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    Currently, I believe 550 players spend about 20 to 25 minutes for clearing scl 10 pves. These players are those who get the best placement rewards. The vibe I've been getting from small spenders and/or non-competitive players is that they want to progress as fast as whales/550 players, but they refuse to put in as much effort, time or money as them because of their real life commitments or their viewpoints on how MPQ should be.

    You see, this is an expectation problem: "My time and money are precious, but I still want to get the best rewards possible, and progress as fast as possible or as fast as the whales/competitive players. So, I force myself to player higher SCL (10) because it gives better rewards. However, the time spent is too much for me."  So, their feedbacks typically centre around distributing placement rewards into progression rewards, do away with time-based pves and reduce the number of clears/grinds from the current 3/2 to 1/1 or 1/0. When this happens, whales will finish in 10 minutes, and baby champed 5* players finish in ~20 minutes.

    I wanted to chime in as a 4* player who's been on for a bit under a year and feels pretty misrepresented by this entire quote. I'll go ahead and get the "this guy is whining" parts out of the way, I don't have a functional Okoye or even access to SCL 10 at this point (probably a month out). Do with that knowledge as you wish.
    The biggest issue I see with 10 is the HUGE disparity in rewards between it and 9. 9 isn't even worth playing in if it's a push for your roster but you're comfortable at 8. It strictly creates a "rich get richer" environment for even those of us that do work (or spend) hard but can't hack it in 10 yet because of the immense disproportionality of what we get for our time. I had no idea how steep the divide was until I was talking with some alliance mates and learned that 10 players don't even have to worry about accruing CP or LL's to remain competitive for the new 5 because you just about get it handed to you for even bothering to log on!
    Now.... how does this lead back to Okoye? I'm against nerfing, but it's important to point out that they created a single character who is the barrier to entry to top level play and have made nothing as good since. Instead, nearly every good character is just improved by her. Newer players are going to be saying the same thing I am, but about Polaris. The difference is that the path to 4 is pretty darn smooth at this point if you do your research, 5 is not.
    Okoye is the barrier to entry to top level play?  I guess I’m some kind of miracle worker then because I was doing scl10 since release just fine without her.  Barely got her champed recently when milestones were released. 

    Seeing as I recently champed her I’m sure she will be nerfed soon though.  Every time I fully cover the top character they are nerfed within a few weeks.  Happened with ragnarok, xfw, and gambit.  And every time it makes me quit for about a year.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2021
    My case is even more shocking. Ive been doing scl10 since it release without kitty nor okoye. Is it my time less precious than other players? And I did with the 5* I had: Iceman PX and carnage. Now I have apocalypse but he is not as fast as her. 
    I dont need to be T10 and Im fine doing scl10 right now.
    I dont understand why a 5* has to be so fast and broken and just the beginning and the end on this game for a lot of players. Another time that could be called unhealthy.
  • Timemachinego
    Timemachinego Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    T_REZ5000 said:
    Okoye is the barrier to entry to top level play?  I guess I’m some kind of miracle worker then because I was doing scl10 since release just fine without her.  Barely got her champed recently when milestones were released.

    I realize I wasn't that clear or my argument wasn't as comprehensive as I had meant it to be, I'm not talking about CL10 itself being the top level but good placement both there and in PVP. There were solid numbers detailing (earlier in this thread) that Okoye is the common factor for those.
  • Akoni
    Akoni Posts: 790 Critical Contributor
    I am completely and utterly fascinated by the polarization this one character creates. As I read through the posts, there are great points made across the board. Some are for nerfing, others for buffing other characters instead, and others for balancing various components of the game. Could it be that small tweaks here and there to each of these might be the answer?
    Sure, Okoye might be a tinge too powerful, but does that require a major overhaul of the character? Through power creep, the need to buff older character comes naturally, but doing so can drive power creep through the ceiling if not done very carefully.
    SCL and reward tiers are very close to the core of the game. Though it is possible to tweak them, devs must be extremely careful when doing so, because if they screw up, they destroy the motivational and balance components of the game. This would destroy the game causing players to quit... possibly permanently. Devs don't want any player quitting due to needed adjustments, but it has happened. Some of those players have returned (best case scenario) and continue to play the game.
    This is probably the second best "free-to-play" game I have played. The best one I ever played had dev issues and didn't make it past beta.  :( Nonetheless, that tells me that the devs of this game are on the right track, so far. I hope they are listening to the players and implementing changes along the way. However, I sincerely hope they are NOT listening to ALL of the players and making EVERY change along the way. That would be disastrous. 
    I look forward to reading more of everyone's opinions.
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