Nerf Okoye

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  • Timemachinego
    Timemachinego Posts: 492 Mover and Shaker
    T_REZ5000 said:
    Okoye is the barrier to entry to top level play?  I guess I’m some kind of miracle worker then because I was doing scl10 since release just fine without her.  Barely got her champed recently when milestones were released.

    I realize I wasn't that clear or my argument wasn't as comprehensive as I had meant it to be, I'm not talking about CL10 itself being the top level but good placement both there and in PVP. There were solid numbers detailing (earlier in this thread) that Okoye is the common factor for those.
  • Akoni
    Akoni Posts: 790 Critical Contributor
    I am completely and utterly fascinated by the polarization this one character creates. As I read through the posts, there are great points made across the board. Some are for nerfing, others for buffing other characters instead, and others for balancing various components of the game. Could it be that small tweaks here and there to each of these might be the answer?
    Sure, Okoye might be a tinge too powerful, but does that require a major overhaul of the character? Through power creep, the need to buff older character comes naturally, but doing so can drive power creep through the ceiling if not done very carefully.
    SCL and reward tiers are very close to the core of the game. Though it is possible to tweak them, devs must be extremely careful when doing so, because if they screw up, they destroy the motivational and balance components of the game. This would destroy the game causing players to quit... possibly permanently. Devs don't want any player quitting due to needed adjustments, but it has happened. Some of those players have returned (best case scenario) and continue to play the game.
    This is probably the second best "free-to-play" game I have played. The best one I ever played had dev issues and didn't make it past beta.  :( Nonetheless, that tells me that the devs of this game are on the right track, so far. I hope they are listening to the players and implementing changes along the way. However, I sincerely hope they are NOT listening to ALL of the players and making EVERY change along the way. That would be disastrous. 
    I look forward to reading more of everyone's opinions.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    Apocalypse is as fast or faster in pick 2 if you have Thor to feed him, same as Okoye. His cheap multi hit red is way more effective than more expensive single target powers. I only use Okoye to grind the main pick 3 track, which isn’t even the time consuming part of 10.
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 996 Critical Contributor
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Apocalypse is as fast or faster in pick 2 if you have Thor to feed him, same as Okoye. His cheap multi hit red is way more effective than more expensive single target powers. I only use Okoye to grind the main pick 3 track, which isn’t even the time consuming part of 10.

    I agree. I only use Okoye in the essential nodes if the essential character has a multi-hit Red, Yellow, or Green power (e.g. Valkyrie) or if they have a passive damager (e.g. Polaris). Otherwise, Thorpocalypse is my go to for pick 2. To your point on time consumption, I've been keeping track of my time to do 1 end clear of each node over 50 different PvE subs and on average, I spend about 6:30 to do the main pick 3 track, just under 7 minutes for 1 clear of each of the 3 essential nodes, and just over 3 minutes for the CN. Interesting note: the 3e usually takes me longer than the 4e, and the 5e usually takes me longer than the CN.
  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2021
    that's not shocking - it's not like iceman, px and carnage are a bad team by any means. shocking would be banner, wasp and surfer  :D

    and you could always play scl9 if you don't like to put in the time. 

    Im still a 4/5 transitioner - every 4* except the latest 2 champed, most of the top meta 5*s fully covered and parked somewhere between 330 and 400.
    i have 8+ million iso and could instantly champ about 10 5*s.

    i just see no reason for it. 
    sure, I probably have an easier time in scl10 but it would still take longer than the way I play now - on autopilot, in scl9, half progression to grab the 4* and the 10cp after that.

    that's it. I don't care about competition and always enter late in any slice with low numbers.

    i invest a little bit of time, I get a little bit of those rewards. 
    but it's a marathon, not.... you know. 
    I'm at day 2000, spent my last batch of LLs and CP when ihulk got released and I'm back again with 160LLs, 4000+ CP and just waiting to pull the trigger.

    just have fun. 
    you are in no hurry. it will take some months or even a year, but eventually you get okoye covered. 

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    ammenell said:
    that's not shocking - it's not like iceman, px and carnage are a bad team by any means. shocking would be banner, wasp and surfer  :D

    just have fun. 
    you are in no hurry. it will take some months or even a year, but eventually you get okoye covered. 

    Ah not? Try it, then tell me.

    Cover okoye with 33 covers? Sorry I have other better ideas in mind.
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Apocalypse is as fast or faster in pick 2 if you have Thor to feed him, same as Okoye. 
    Not sure is that is faster than a hyper leveled hulkoye team. 
    But finally hulkoye on pick 2 provides something a lot more valuable: less hits.
    And just that is what is broking the meta.
  • Akoni
    Akoni Posts: 790 Critical Contributor
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Is the problem that you can’t defeat the Okoyes you are matched up against, or you can’t defeat the players who have invested that much time and effort into “hyper leveling” their Okoye in placement? Because calling for a nerf on the former is justified, on the latter is just undercutting someone else’s roster plan. I could beat Okoye as a 4* player back when she was released, so I really don’t believe that she is fundamentally too good. Again the former is a character problem, the latter is a matchmaking problem where you are up against players with better rosters than you and it is like boxing or wrestling outside your weight class. Example: the figure-4 is not inherently too powerful, it’s just that Macho Man Randy Savage has 120 pounds on you and you just aren’t getting out of it. You shouldn’t be up against him.
    Wow, good analogy. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Is the problem that you can’t defeat the Okoyes you are matched up against, or you can’t defeat the players who have invested that much time and effort into “hyper leveling” their Okoye in placement? Because calling for a nerf on the former is justified, on the latter is just undercutting someone else’s roster plan. I could beat Okoye as a 4* player back when she was released, so I really don’t believe that she is fundamentally too good. Again the former is a character problem, the latter is a matchmaking problem where you are up against players with better rosters than you and it is like boxing or wrestling outside your weight class. Example: the figure-4 is not inherently too powerful, it’s just that Macho Man Randy Savage has 120 pounds on you and you just aren’t getting out of it. You shouldn’t be up against him.
    The answer, repeating another time more: I can possibly beat them but the damage on a bad board will be too much. Plus the time invested will be double of the time that team needs to beat me.
    Besides, do you believe WWF battlers are not actors? :smile:
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Im always talking about pvp where the most effective teams are proved.
    If Ihulk was the problem people will cover him to the maximum: that is not happening.
    If Ihulk was the problem he would be in all teams. Not happening. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
    So you’re queuing up 500+ level Okoyes that aren’t retaliations in PVP? 

    And I predict you WILL see hyper leveled Adam Warlocks with Okoye soon, that’s just an artifact of hulk’s teamkiller damage.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
    Its not needed okoye level 500 to be a team no one wants to hit. That team is enough scarecrow at 470.
    I disagree with your prediction as AW cannot fire AoE all.turns plus can be denied easier.
  • Michael1957
    Michael1957 Posts: 630 Critical Contributor
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Is the problem that you can’t defeat the Okoyes you are matched up against, or you can’t defeat the players who have invested that much time and effort into “hyper leveling” their Okoye in placement? Because calling for a nerf on the former is justified, on the latter is just undercutting someone else’s roster plan. I could beat Okoye as a 4* player back when she was released, so I really don’t believe that she is fundamentally too good. Again the former is a character problem, the latter is a matchmaking problem where you are up against players with better rosters than you and it is like boxing or wrestling outside your weight class. Example: the figure-4 is not inherently too powerful, it’s just that Macho Man Randy Savage has 120 pounds on you and you just aren’t getting out of it. You shouldn’t be up against him.
    Ooohhh yeahhhh, digggittt !
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 996 Critical Contributor
    Bad said:
    Its not needed okoye level 500 to be a team no one wants to hit. That team is enough scarecrow at 470.
    I disagree with your prediction as AW cannot fire AoE all.turns plus can be denied easier.
    And yet, my 479 Okoye has been unsuccessful floating in PvP without getting hit. And I know others with 550 Okoyes who take hits as well. Any character is a scarecrow to someone with that character at a lower level. The reason to get her level up isn't because people won't hit you, it's because they'll choose to go after someone with a lower level Okoye first, which might mean less hits for you. Not because they're scared, but because they have better/safer/faster/less health pack eating options.
  • 658_2
    658_2 Posts: 235 Tile Toppler
    Why are they averse to making counters? I said upthread I could probably come up with 5 Hulk counters in 5 minutes. I actually thought about it and it took me more like two...

    1. 5* version of Quake yellow
    2. 5* version of 4* DP black
    3. Stun version of 4* DP black
    4. Match 4 passive that destroys green, a la Onslaught green
    5. Passive green charged tile maker, a la 5* Storm black

    I could think of 5 more with ease, not to mention that BRB is already a great counter, especially with Carnage (excellent float team btw), and they could just put him in stores. The devs have to actually make the counter though. A couple of those above might be too strong, but 3-5, putting BRB in stores, or making someone who passively puts specials or traps on green...what’s the holdup? Obviously, 5* DP was supposed to be a counter, and his black works, but the problem is he’s otherwise terrible.

  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,973 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    When you say “them,” do you specifically mean Okoye and Hulk, or Okoye and anyone? Because most of us have been trying to explain Okoye is not the problem (assuming one exists), but hulk. This is a billion page thread calling for a nerf to Okoye, but reading between the lines of all these nerf posts she is not anyone’s actual problem in PvP, and people complaining about PVE brackets are actually complaining about being in an “unlimited class” bracket for placement. I’m just trying to name the true problem, and that true problem’s name is not Okoye to my eye.

    The reason she is not a problem from your perspective is because of the way you have framed your argument: Is she beatable?

    But I do not believe that is the issue.

    The problem is that her skill set is easily exploitable to allow players to punch up way beyond their weight class, to borrow your analogy.  The fact of the matter is that a hyper-leveled Okoye with a low champed Thor/iHulk/Prof X is a far more potent team than a multitude of double or even triple hyper leveled 5* team combinations. It's why many competitive players believe she is the best for dealing with the more difficult nodes in CL10 PvE. 
    She is so good that one of the first questions competitive players ask when a new character is released is "How well do they run with Okoye?"

    To put it simply, she defines the meta and has always been a major part of the meta since she was released almost three years ago. Before Immortal Hulk, people were complaining about Okoye/Thor teams not because they were too hard to beat but simply because they were everywhere and could essentially beat any other team, hyper-leveled or not.  If nothing is done to address Okoye's current dominance of the meta, then I imagine we will once again see her paired with whoever next has the better passive or cheap damage attack skill.

    Even among her own booster type peers, she stands out as the most player friendly as long as you ensure she is tanking as much as possible.  With Kitty, you need a certain amount of special tiles on the board to get the boost started which limits her to characters that produce special tiles quickly. With Apocalypse, you need seven yellow AP and need to protect his repeater tiles.

    With Okoye, players can use boosts to start the match with 1-4 TUs from the very get-go. A max champed Okoye with 7 TU does almost 1k more damage than a max champed Apocalypse's Shared Strength ability. And unlike Apocalypse's boost which requires 7AP, players immediately benefit from each TU she holds.

    While Kitty arguably has the stronger boost ability, she is kept in check by various counter skills like Shadowy Acrobatics and her own boost condition. 
    The closest we have to an Okoye counter character is Onslaught but even in the event that he wipes the board of TUs, the player still manages to keep the TUs they have collected (or even started the match when TU boosts were used) as long as she is in front and active.

    There are two questions that come to mind when considering the Okoye issue: "How much influence should one character have over the meta?" and  "How to keep boost skills in check so as to not over run the meta?"

    I, personally, would rather the meta not be: 1 hyper-leveled boost character  + 1 passive damage/cheap damage or multi hit damage character. There are other skill types like stunning and AP theft and so on that I would like to see have a place at the meta table.
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    A "hyper-leveled" (what a weird term) apoc/half Thor with y/r, all AP boosts and supports that give you yellow & green AP at game start would be just about quick as bald michonne/ihulk. Especially with ihulk green door being unreliable at times.

    With apoc/Thor fire apoc yellow, Thor green, apoc red. Usually have enough apoc red to fire twice in a row.
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