Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • TriSentinel
    TriSentinel Posts: 139 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Marc_Spector said:

    BISHOP:
    An idea I had this morning: Rather than having Bishop be an irritating wall from the start of battle, why not have his blue AP-gen ramp up over time via damage received to just him or the team? The coding exists to track how much damage a character has done over time (see: Ghost Rider’s black.) Can that be modified to track how much total damage a whole team has done (and/or, taken) over time?
    Then we could have something like:
    “For every 1000 damage done by the enemy to your team, Bishop generates 1 blue AP”. 
    This would prevent the problem of a first move triggering Bishop’s passive so heavily as it stands now, making him more of a ticking time bomb building up that absorbed energy over time. Start of battle matches? Not a problem. Attacking his team with a powerful 10,000 dmg move? Prepare to eat a major stun next round (unless able to stun the enemy Bishop first). This would add an element of strategy … and, dare I say, an element of PUZZLING?… to Bishop fights.

    5* MATCH DAMAGE:
    I’ve been trying to find this on the forum but can’t — Has it ever been officially explained why 5*s have such wildly divergent match damage ranges across the entire rank? It makes it hard and annoying to remember who-tanks-which-color among characters who are equal level. Was the point to shake that up and make it harder to plan for that exact thing? Before 5*s existed, I liked knowing that two characters of same level in same rank would do equal match damage on the 1st/2nd/3rd colors, and planning teams around that to be able to keep someone specific on the front line / someone else hidden away. If I had my druthers, 5* match damage would be equalized the same way across the entire rank — but if that’s too much to ask more, at least a boost to the match damage of older 5*s as others have asked for.

    UNDERPERFORMING 4*s:
    Emma Frost — Apropos character-design lore-wise (as she can’t use any mental powers while in diamond form) but the execution here doesn’t make for a fun character. Shifting to Diamond Skin usually leaves me trapped like that due to some random fortified strike tile the enemy will never be able to reach, while they then match away or destroy my yellow/purple repeaters that I can’t recast, leaving Emma as nothing but a high-match-damage punching bag for the rest of match. Maybe she should switch back to normal — or, have the OPTION to switch back (at zero, or low amount of black AP) once one of her repeaters is matched or destroyed? (Also, shouldn’t diamond skin reduce incoming damage as well?? Diamonds are tough, y’know!)
    Kraven — for how little his blue trap tile does, I’m aghast at its 10AP cost. 6-7 would seem more reasonable, as would allowing multiple traps on the board to steal 1AP each, instead of just 1AP total for however many traps are out. I would honestly vote this as the most pathetic active-power in the entire 4* tier.
    Flaptain — was already junky on launch when most countdowns were things you’d WANT to hasten/resolve, but becomes even worse with every countdown added which one would want to keep on the board for an added effect. It’s probably too much to ask for his passive to smartly differentiate between the two.

    UNDERPERFORMING 5*s:
    5*Kingpin — The phrase “too many notes” from the film Amadeus comes to mind. I covered him fairly quickly, and never use him unless required — as his (adequate-at-best) moves require too much thinking. XD  Comparing AP amounts each turn is thematically fun via the Fisk-as-businessman theme you’re going for here, but is not conducive to fast play.
    5*Banner. Is. So. Boring.  A fun meat-shield to play with when buffed, but I don’t think the “extra life” of his Hulk-form is enough of a trade-off for how little else he can do (let alone the no AP gen on his auto-matches, which feels even worse now that 5*Carnage’s auto-matches DO generate AP.). Not irredeemably terrible, but phenomenally less exciting than any Hulk deserves to be.
    5*Wasp on the other hand is a frustrating dumpster-fire of interesting ideas that just don’t work in practice — which was such a shame as I love her character in the films and love her artwork in MPQ. The community (correctly) labelled her dead-on-arrival upon release, and of course that meant fates would conspire to have her become my fastest-covered 5* ever. I levelled her merely for sh*ts&giggles to see if she could work as a fun troll-character in any capacity, and she can’t even do THAT well. The only notable thing going for her is a less-common color combination. She just has no synergy with anyone at all, and her 4* counterpart bests her in every conceivable way. Someone said it best earlier in the thread: There should not BE trash-tier 5*s, and Wa5p is the poster child.

    Thanks again for your attention to character-balance! I hope for a fun and dynamic year for MPQ devs and players alike.

    Agreed, Bishop doesn't need to be broken, but the mechanic needs to be spread out over several turns. Let him keep his damage blast, stun, AP destruction, and AP gain, but spread those effects over several turns so that matches aren't over on turn 0.5. Maybe he needs an additional mechanic like if there are shield tiles on the board that he hasn't eaten then he doesn't move to the front.There are ways to fix the turn 0.5 team kill while keeping him effective, fun, and interesting to use.

    Also agreed on 5*s. Banner needs a fix, Wa5p needs an overhaul (it feels like she belongs in a different game), and older 5*s needs match damage increased to keep up with the newer ones.

    Emma Frost is close to useless right now and is just dead weight on any team.

    Kraven should be more effective, as a hunter I expected an invisibility mechanic for him so he could hide and ambush, but we got a sad trap tile instead.
  • dokiy
    dokiy Posts: 238 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    BUFF AWAY


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Kraven needs to be able to create his own junk enemy specials. Have that be tied to his trap being matched perhaps? That trap costing 10ap to do (essentially) nothing is like...what? 3* Blade has a better move for doing that with his repeater thing. His black is actually not that bad, but just nothing he does really goes together in a coherent way. 
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Why is it that people like bishop and hammercap so much on these here forums?  I've seen several people saying not to nerf them.  I'm just curious---you think it's ok for characters not to allow a simple matching of 3 in a match 3 game?  Build counters?  They *are* counters built to counter a broken 4 star and are themselves more broken.  Any further counter would be even more broken and OP.  

    4 stars shouldn't be able to compete with 5 stars, period.  Pull off a win against them? Sure.  But the 5s should be able to steamroll them back.  If 4 star players want to keep the annoying factor there, that's fine.  But then release a 3 star that beats 4 stars 50% of the time on defense and allows 3 star players to hit 4 star players as well.  Make a 2 star that does the same to 3 stars.  Punish everyone for moving up.  Then see who wants to move up.
    The thing is 4*s aren't competing with 5*. Are you really skipping or fearing HammerCap + 2 other 4*s or Bishop + 2 other 4*s if you have a pure 5* team? Your really only fearing hybrid 5* teams featuring Hawkeye/HammerCap and Bishop/Gritty (or Bishop/other 5* pair). So 4* aren't quite competing with 5*s.

    Further counters definitely do not have to be more broken or OP.
    1) Release another 5* that's immune to stun. That wouldn't be OP.
    2) Release a different 5* that inhibits passive AP gain (1 at 1 cover to 5 at 5 covers). Useful against not just Bishop/HammerCap but also Carol, Vulture, Medusa, Miles, Coulson etc. That wouldn't be OP.

    If those 5* were mid/upper tier like GED/Hela/ProfX that would go a long way to fixing the problem esp if the immune to stun character had opposite colors to Surfer so they could be played together. 

    KGB

    P.S. As a 4* player I've never used Hammercap outside when he was boosted (my 5* Hawkeye is only 3/2/2). I only use Bishop in Shield Sim to take out Gritty or Rocket/Guardian teams that fill my queue once I pass about 1700 points.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,813 Chairperson of the Boards
    Balance is fine right now
    Jacklag said:
    Ok, so what I'm getting from this is that to make everybody happy they should nerf both Bishop and Gritty. All in favor?
    Nope, nothing wrong with kitty and grocket. It’s a cupcake team, easy 75 points from all those that leave him out without bishop. There are plenty of counters to shut that down.

    If they remove that team from pve it will slow me down, so please also nerf thanos by making his court death a countdown.
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    TriSentinel said:
    Marc_Spector said:



    Emma Frost is close to useless right now and is just dead weight on any team.

    It could be worse. She could be Talos.
  • DeNappa
    DeNappa Posts: 1,396 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    tiomono said:
    To all the buffer fans. Suppose you buff all the 5*'s to work as well as kitty, thor, okoye, they still will be stunned for 4 turns after their second move. Just buffing is not the answer imo.

    [..]

    Making a match 3 vs bishop as a 5* player is actively losing the match for you. You gain 3 ap and do around 1k damage to him, he hits you for 2k damage and gains 5 blue then gets to take his own turn. His team is guaranteed to get 8 ap to your 3 every turn and do more damage. That is broken.
    Just want to emphasise this point. Also see @The rockett's post right above mine for another HamCap brokenness example.
  • ROY84
    ROY84 Posts: 30 Just Dropped In
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I'd say it's better to improve worse characters then it is to nerf over-powered characters. Obviously there are characters you see at the tops of all PVP sets in the 4* arena. Bishop, Medusa, Juggernaut, Rocket and Groot, Captain Marvel, Captain America...etc

    We've all seen them. But it's not so much they need to be nerfed as the other characters need significant improvements. 

    One thing you can improve on is the number of AP characters require to perform their abilities. You want it to be a challenge not to GET the AP but to keep the other team from getting the AP. If you got a character with a 15AP red who does a 4th of the damage someone with a passive can do...guess who anyone with any brains is going to choose?

    Long story short: Reduce AP costs + Increase output (dmg, special tile amt) = Competitive with passive abilities.

    On some characters you can add stuns or other secondary effects to abilities.

    Nerfing characters will only piss people off. Improving **** characters will drive interest. 

    Oh yeah, and you can put Gambit back to where he was originally now. You nerfed him ENTIRELY too much. You made him from one of the best covers to one of the worst covers in the game. A prime example of pissing people off by nerfing an admittedly overpowered character. All you had to do was reduce his ap gains from his passive but you went ahead and made every single one of his abilities useless. You could have at least made his purple countdown tiles fortified ffs. 
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Tony_Foot said:
    Jacklag said:
    Ok, so what I'm getting from this is that to make everybody happy they should nerf both Bishop and Gritty. All in favor?
    Nope, nothing wrong with kitty and grocket. It’s a cupcake team, easy 75 points from all those that leave him out without bishop. There are plenty of counters to shut that down.

    If they remove that team from pve it will slow me down, so please also nerf thanos by making his court death a countdown.
    Shoot, with 4* Juggs on my team, it's a very, very squishy team. Especially once you destroy enough strike tiles.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    it would be nice of some older, weaker 5* could get some use, even if it is niche use like in PvE or something. Would not be a huge deficit for people who don't have them but fun for those that do.

    Nerfs are frustrating because sometimes you had to put so much effort and resources (strong character being necessary) just to waste it all. Like I had bonus hero for Gambit for a while and by the time I got to 9-10 covers he became useless.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    DAZ0273 said:
    Despite all this talk about nerfs though I don't see any changes in leaderboards. I don't see 5* players not hitting 2000 in Sim. There is still collusion in PvP which makes Bishop etc irrelevant. Bishop isn't even an issue in pick 2 Pvp. I see 5* players who want 4* characters nerfed without their 5* characters touched or treated in equal fashion. I wonder at players talking about healthpacks when they have hundreds stockpiled. This whole thread/poll is a strange exercise which none of us will win I fear, especially when players continue to vote one way but their comments suggest they want to play both ends against the middle. Fun I guess?
    I use gritty to climb in pick 2. When I want a break I win a match with daredevil bishop. I take barely any hits and get the occasional defensive win. If I leave gritty out I get hammered down much harder.
  • san
    san Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Some older characters could certainly use a bit of a buff. While there is temptation to "nerf" the newest, shiniest, and presently strongest characters (bishop, cap), such nerfs are typically short sighted and the benefit of them short lived. There will always be a character which is used in the meta, and that's how it's been over the years.

    Adding strength to existing characters can reinvigorate them. For players who already have these characters, they now have added value. For those that do not, well now it gives them something to chase. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I like Bruce Banner's abilities, except for the one that creates attack tiles. If his ability would target only enemy special tiles or SAP, instead of targeting random basic tiles too, it would be good. It is not too broken because it's dependent on the number of green tiles on board. Sometimes it activates, sometimes it don't.

    I find one comment pretty true and it goes something like those who have Bishop/WorthyCap at high level are 5* players. I think most 4* players have trouble covering them unless they play competitively. I tried using Bishop in PvP and I still get hammered pretty badly by other 4* players and some 5* players. This is a problem caused by mostly 5* players. 

    I would like to see more characters with the ability to send enemy airborne. Right now, there are three that I can think of: Northstar, Nova and Riri. All of them are 4* characters. This ability could be passive and once X damage are dealt to your team, send enemy airborne for up to 3 turns. 
  • Bobby_Lishez
    Bobby_Lishez Posts: 11 Just Dropped In
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    The main answer is that OML needs to be restored to his former glory already. To address Bishop and Hammercap, though, I think a good solution would be to have them lose the jump-in-front portion of their passives and trigger on allies taking damage instead of themselves. That would bring them in line with Xpool and Valk, who are useful in 5star land but never oppressive because going against them, you can just target them first. Make the others work the same way and the people who use them on offense don't really lose any utility; they just stop getting skipped so much
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Warbringa said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Why is it that people like bishop and hammercap so much on these here forums?  I've seen several people saying not to nerf them.  I'm just curious---you think it's ok for characters not to allow a simple matching of 3 in a match 3 game?  Build counters?  They *are* counters built to counter a broken 4 star and are themselves more broken.  Any further counter would be even more broken and OP.  

    4 stars shouldn't be able to compete with 5 stars, period.  Pull off a win against them? Sure.  But the 5s should be able to steamroll them back.  If 4 star players want to keep the annoying factor there, that's fine.  But then release a 3 star that beats 4 stars 50% of the time on defense and allows 3 star players to hit 4 star players as well.  Make a 2 star that does the same to 3 stars.  Punish everyone for moving up.  Then see who wants to move up.
    Indeed both need their powers altered as a 5* player but you are looking at them from your point of view only.  4* players don't care about your gripes about either of them because neither is really much of an issue for pure 4* players.  They have problems of their own in the 4* tier. I imagine there are many 4* or early 5* players who lean on them to punch above their rosters normal weight who would defend them is my guess.

    I ask the same thing about people who defend Gritty as you do about Bishop and Hammercap btw.
    I agree that rocket needs a rebalance.  Give him bigger strikes but less of them and he won't work with kitty, the most overrated character in the game aside from Okoye.  

    Within the 5 star tier itself theres nobody that's super OP but there some underpowered folks, mostly because of match damage and health creep, but they don't matter anyway.  The 4 star tier is a mess but it doesnt matter cause you can just ignore the 4 stars you don't like.  That's the design of the game now.  The developers (or maybe the bean counters, but someone is to blame) don't care about dilution at all in regards to building a roster.  They care about it only in regards to building one or 2 specific characters and that's it.  Forget that you cant actually even complete events with 2 people, that part is fine.  Just roster those 2 and forget the rest of the game exists.
  • Basepuzzler
    Basepuzzler Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I’m in favor of nerfing characters that are aggravating and not those who make the game faster. 

    Sorry Bishop, you need to go.

    Rocket should start with fewer strikes that are much stronger so same total value as now.  He won’t be a pain with kitty anymore, but will still help pve be fast when paired with a guardian.

    Thor is a walkover on defense, so the only question is whether teams of 450’s should be able to beat teams of 550’s.  

    Thanos does not need his powers changed, he makes annoying low level pve nodes significantly faster. The best way to nerf thanos is to make pve nodes with lots more health that you don’t have to beat 7 times per day. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    By reducing the number of R4G's strike tiles but keeping the damage similar, wouldn't it be harder to match them away? It's 2/64 vs 7/64 chances of matching them. If players don't want Kitty ability to process immediately, the number has to be two because pairing her with another X-men reduces the number of tiles needed to 3.

    Even if this happens, players will still find a way to get around this like pairing them with BRB (+4 protect tiles) or 4* Carnage (+ 2 or 3 attack tiles).
  • leoperez90
    leoperez90 Posts: 66 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Dont nerf the characters that speed up the game those characters are crucial bc the game is based on speed to play competitive.

    Bring up the bad tier characters make them great. 

    We need a power that nullifies passives!!!

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