Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    @DAZ0273

    "If you stick Bishop in a Crash of the Titans he won’t pose much threat, thus “by himself” he isn’t very intimidating"

    I could be wrong, but this wording makes it sound like Bishop as the enemy in the crash not the player being Bishop.  The enemy can sometimes be a 5 star or Galactus but the player is always a 4 star so if Bishop is my enemy who is a threat that I might be intimidated by then it has to be 4* vs 4*
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    BriMan2222 said:
    @DAZ0273

    "If you stick Bishop in a Crash of the Titans he won’t pose much threat, thus “by himself” he isn’t very intimidating"

    I could be wrong, but this wording makes it sound like Bishop as the enemy in the crash not the player being Bishop.  The enemy can sometimes be a 5 star or Galactus but the player is always a 4 star so if Bishop is my enemy who is a threat that I might be intimidated by then it has to be 4* vs 4*
    Sorry mate, wasn't very clear if you were talking about using Bishop or fighting Bishop.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Truthfully, if *5 tier is going to be the endgame tier then there should be a 5 for ever situation you can think of.

    IE:

    A 5 should counter or hard counter at least 1 character in 5-3 tiers. More so in 4-3 tiers. I'll use wasp as an example again, you stun anyone on her team, she auto stuns the person that did it plus 1 (say thanos) now there's a smaller counter to death without making it useless.

    civil war 5 cap- Anytime someone match value is greater than X cap jumps in the way taking reduced damage of X amount and also removes  2 of the strongest attack/strike tiles.

    I mean there is truthfully no reason to nerf any character now.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Honest question: Everybody keeps saying about buffing Wasp. Is there a specific reason? Do you guys all have level 490 Wasps or something?!?!? I mean someone has to suck, right? Until we get 5* AntMan with his super Swarm boost synergy power I say let her remain in Suckville. Surfer, Phoenix, Iron Man, Cap - let us sort those guys first before the most boring/ non synergy 5* we have.
  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 583 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I don't think any nerfing is necessary.  The mentioned nerf candidates are easily handled with the proper teams.  People just want to power through everything with the same team regardless of the opposing team.  That gets boring and tedious.  We have a large number of playable characters available, I suggest taking advantage of your full rosters rather than getting upset that your favorite team gets torn to shreds by Bishop.
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    How much feedback is enough feedback in order to justify changes?


  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum


    The rockett said:

    I shared a SS on discord of a SIM match against HE/Hammer Cap with my A team of 516 OK,  505 Thor and 490 JJ. 

    1st move:
    Me:  match 3 that hit a cascade which I ended with 9 AP. 
    AI:  PRE 1st move after all the Hammer Cap tiles  do their countdown thing. 
    blue AP:30
    Red AP:26 

    Yes that was before AI made 1 move they had over 30 blue and 26 red AP. You cannot make a match against Hammer or Bishop without their passive going off.  If that is not broken, then I have no idea what is.  

    C'mon, i don't remember what logical fallacy this falls under, but it is pretty blatant. You think you represent anything resembling the average player?  I'm top 50 cl9 pve with 900/1200 pvp.  Day 2221 with 10 million Iso sitting in the bank and 400+ pulls waiting on the next 5* so i can champ whomever it is with carbage and brb and add them to my 27 other 5* champs.  And even with all that, my best 5* are between 460 and 463, and i only just recently maxed out my second 4* champ literally yesterday.  

    Of course the AI is going to have maximum ap in that scenario. No one is surprised by this.  Show me when you do that with 4*, and I'll listen.  But just as an example, my 366 Coulson, boosted in pvp right now, does 1137 in his strongest color, just barely enough to trigger the 1059 requirement of my level 297 bishop.  But again, the number of people with almost maxed coulsons cannot come close to those that don't. 

    jp1 said:

    If they do nerf Bishop my life is likely to become less complicated when it comes to PVP, so I stand to gain nothing from coming to his defense. Other people, those in transition with maybe 1 or 2 five star champs or those deeply rooted in 4 star land having to deal with under leveled fives who are still dominating their play experience might need those tools.


    This right here is what it comes down to, those that are annoyed are only thinking of themselves and not others.  Nerfing bishop or hammer does absolutely nothing to me or my game, but I takes away options from others.  No offense to those asking for nerfs, but it comes off as kind of selfish, imo.


    DAZ0273 said:
    Despite all this talk about nerfs though I don't see any changes in leaderboards. I don't see 5* players not hitting 2000 in Sim. There is still collusion in PvP which makes Bishop etc irrelevant. Bishop isn't even an issue in pick 2 Pvp. I see 5* players who want 4* characters nerfed without their 5* characters touched or treated in equal fashion. I wonder at players talking about healthpacks when they have hundreds stockpiled. This whole thread/poll is a strange exercise which none of us will win I fear, especially when players continue to vote one way but their comments suggest they want to play both ends against the middle. Fun I guess?
    This right here.  Top winners rarely change, even as the meta changes.  Taking away tools because it inconveniences you, with no regard to how it impacts those who are trying to come up, is the wrong way to come about.  
  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,605 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    bluewolf said:

    I don't think I've seen one single player express an opinion that no one needs work - at least not in several years.  Banner has been in the game for a very, very long time, for one thing.
    And he STILL doesn't have a yellow power while in Hulk form. Missed opportunity to have a rainbow character with Banner and Hulk covering all six colors. And they could have released him as-is without any balance issues by giving him a passive yellow power that says "The Hulk can perceive ghosts." It wouldn't even need to do anything, and could just be a fun reference to a weirder power he has shown in the comics. That could have been done well before he was put out in public and everyone realized he needed an upgrade immediately.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Spudgutter said:


    The rockett said:

    I shared a SS on discord of a SIM match against HE/Hammer Cap with my A team of 516 OK,  505 Thor and 490 JJ. 

    1st move:
    Me:  match 3 that hit a cascade which I ended with 9 AP. 
    AI:  PRE 1st move after all the Hammer Cap tiles  do their countdown thing. 
    blue AP:30
    Red AP:26 

    Yes that was before AI made 1 move they had over 30 blue and 26 red AP. You cannot make a match against Hammer or Bishop without their passive going off.  If that is not broken, then I have no idea what is.  

    C'mon, i don't remember what logical fallacy this falls under, but it is pretty blatant. You think you represent anything resembling the average player?  I'm top 50 cl9 pve with 900/1200 pvp.  Day 2221 with 10 million Iso sitting in the bank and 400+ pulls waiting on the next 5* so i can champ whomever it is with carbage and brb and add them to my 27 other 5* champs.  And even with all that, my best 5* are between 460 and 463, and i only just recently maxed out my second 4* champ literally yesterday.  

    Of course the AI is going to have maximum ap in that scenario. No one is surprised by this.  Show me when you do that with 4*, and I'll listen.  But just as an example, my 366 Coulson, boosted in pvp right now, does 1137 in his strongest color, just barely enough to trigger the 1059 requirement of my level 297 bishop.  But again, the number of people with almost maxed coulsons cannot come close to those that don't. 

    jp1 said:

    If they do nerf Bishop my life is likely to become less complicated when it comes to PVP, so I stand to gain nothing from coming to his defense. Other people, those in transition with maybe 1 or 2 five star champs or those deeply rooted in 4 star land having to deal with under leveled fives who are still dominating their play experience might need those tools.


    This right here is what it comes down to, those that are annoyed are only thinking of themselves and not others.  Nerfing bishop or hammer does absolutely nothing to me or my game, but I takes away options from others.  No offense to those asking for nerfs, but it comes off as kind of selfish, imo.


    DAZ0273 said:
    Despite all this talk about nerfs though I don't see any changes in leaderboards. I don't see 5* players not hitting 2000 in Sim. There is still collusion in PvP which makes Bishop etc irrelevant. Bishop isn't even an issue in pick 2 Pvp. I see 5* players who want 4* characters nerfed without their 5* characters touched or treated in equal fashion. I wonder at players talking about healthpacks when they have hundreds stockpiled. This whole thread/poll is a strange exercise which none of us will win I fear, especially when players continue to vote one way but their comments suggest they want to play both ends against the middle. Fun I guess?
    This right here.  Top winners rarely change, even as the meta changes.  Taking away tools because it inconveniences you, with no regard to how it impacts those who are trying to come up, is the wrong way to come about.  
    Was the 5* or 3* gambit nerf just taking away players options?
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Daredevil217 said:
    Spudgutter said:


    The rockett said:

    I shared a SS on discord of a SIM match against HE/Hammer Cap with my A team of 516 OK,  505 Thor and 490 JJ. 

    1st move:
    Me:  match 3 that hit a cascade which I ended with 9 AP. 
    AI:  PRE 1st move after all the Hammer Cap tiles  do their countdown thing. 
    blue AP:30
    Red AP:26 

    Yes that was before AI made 1 move they had over 30 blue and 26 red AP. You cannot make a match against Hammer or Bishop without their passive going off.  If that is not broken, then I have no idea what is.  

    C'mon, i don't remember what logical fallacy this falls under, but it is pretty blatant. You think you represent anything resembling the average player?  I'm top 50 cl9 pve with 900/1200 pvp.  Day 2221 with 10 million Iso sitting in the bank and 400+ pulls waiting on the next 5* so i can champ whomever it is with carbage and brb and add them to my 27 other 5* champs.  And even with all that, my best 5* are between 460 and 463, and i only just recently maxed out my second 4* champ literally yesterday.  

    Of course the AI is going to have maximum ap in that scenario. No one is surprised by this.  Show me when you do that with 4*, and I'll listen.  But just as an example, my 366 Coulson, boosted in pvp right now, does 1137 in his strongest color, just barely enough to trigger the 1059 requirement of my level 297 bishop.  But again, the number of people with almost maxed coulsons cannot come close to those that don't. 

    jp1 said:

    If they do nerf Bishop my life is likely to become less complicated when it comes to PVP, so I stand to gain nothing from coming to his defense. Other people, those in transition with maybe 1 or 2 five star champs or those deeply rooted in 4 star land having to deal with under leveled fives who are still dominating their play experience might need those tools.


    This right here is what it comes down to, those that are annoyed are only thinking of themselves and not others.  Nerfing bishop or hammer does absolutely nothing to me or my game, but I takes away options from others.  No offense to those asking for nerfs, but it comes off as kind of selfish, imo.


    DAZ0273 said:
    Despite all this talk about nerfs though I don't see any changes in leaderboards. I don't see 5* players not hitting 2000 in Sim. There is still collusion in PvP which makes Bishop etc irrelevant. Bishop isn't even an issue in pick 2 Pvp. I see 5* players who want 4* characters nerfed without their 5* characters touched or treated in equal fashion. I wonder at players talking about healthpacks when they have hundreds stockpiled. This whole thread/poll is a strange exercise which none of us will win I fear, especially when players continue to vote one way but their comments suggest they want to play both ends against the middle. Fun I guess?
    This right here.  Top winners rarely change, even as the meta changes.  Taking away tools because it inconveniences you, with no regard to how it impacts those who are trying to come up, is the wrong way to come about.  

    I think the logical fallacy is "anecdotal evidence", where you take one personal example and generalize it and assume it's the norm.  The thing is, for 5* players, it is a pretty common occurrence.

    As for the rest, I think it is a pretty reductionist view of the whole Bishop problem.  I could just as easily call players saying "don't nerf!" selfish because they are only thinking about how Bishop allows them to punch up (4* players) or how he gives them a "free shield" (5* players).  With no regard for the fact that I can't make a match-3 in a match 3 game without the enemy getting 30 AP and stun-locking my team.  We could toss that word around both ways.

    The problem is that I know many "trying to come up" aren't because of the balance issues in the 5* tier.  Both not having the handful of characters that matter AND not wanting to enter a tier where broke Bishop mechanics are a thing.  This is why the answer to the original poll is BOTH.  Nerf Bishop, standardize the match damage/health of 5*s, and retool some of the lowest tier 5s.  Make the 5* tier something rewarding to get to and a place where people don't feel punished and experience less enjoyment.  That will do way more for those "coming up", than letting a broke character stand.

    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
  • Heartbreaksoup
    Heartbreaksoup Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    jamesh said:

    It might also be worth significantly reducing the match damage of the tier to avoid problems with Bishop and Worthy Cap.  Both characters have interesting mechanics, but having their powers trigger off simple 5* match damage makes them unreasonably effective.  So we either need to increase the damage threshold of their powers, or let the 5* tier do less match damage.

    I'm a PVE player.  I don't play Versus.  I have to down a single Level 23 Bishop in six rounds, about one day a month.  Why should I have to have my 5*s' match damage reduced?
  • spatenfloot
    spatenfloot Posts: 665 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    spidyjedi84 said:
    TriSentinel said:
    Marc_Spector said:



    Emma Frost is close to useless right now and is just dead weight on any team.

    It could be worse. She could be Talos.
    With his shape shifting ability, Talos can be Emma.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:



    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I thought Kitty and R4G is manageable. What levels are they?
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:



    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
    I’m not against making Wasp the second unstunable character or a buff to weaker characters in general. I’m against that specific character and Surfer being the only counter to a character a tier below them. A top tier 5* obliterating 95% of the tier below them makes sense. A 4* obliterating 95% of the tier above... not so much. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Some 5* players have no problem taking down Bishop. While waiting for rebalances, maybe you guys can ask each other for tips.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:


    The rockett said:

    I shared a SS on discord of a SIM match against HE/Hammer Cap with my A team of 516 OK,  505 Thor and 490 JJ. 

    1st move:
    Me:  match 3 that hit a cascade which I ended with 9 AP. 
    AI:  PRE 1st move after all the Hammer Cap tiles  do their countdown thing. 
    blue AP:30
    Red AP:26 

    Yes that was before AI made 1 move they had over 30 blue and 26 red AP. You cannot make a match against Hammer or Bishop without their passive going off.  If that is not broken, then I have no idea what is.  

    C'mon, i don't remember what logical fallacy this falls under, but it is pretty blatant. You think you represent anything resembling the average player?  I'm top 50 cl9 pve with 900/1200 pvp.  Day 2221 with 10 million Iso sitting in the bank and 400+ pulls waiting on the next 5* so i can champ whomever it is with carbage and brb and add them to my 27 other 5* champs.  And even with all that, my best 5* are between 460 and 463, and i only just recently maxed out my second 4* champ literally yesterday.  

    Of course the AI is going to have maximum ap in that scenario. No one is surprised by this.  Show me when you do that with 4*, and I'll listen.  But just as an example, my 366 Coulson, boosted in pvp right now, does 1137 in his strongest color, just barely enough to trigger the 1059 requirement of my level 297 bishop.  But again, the number of people with almost maxed coulsons cannot come close to those that don't. 

    jp1 said:

    If they do nerf Bishop my life is likely to become less complicated when it comes to PVP, so I stand to gain nothing from coming to his defense. Other people, those in transition with maybe 1 or 2 five star champs or those deeply rooted in 4 star land having to deal with under leveled fives who are still dominating their play experience might need those tools.


    This right here is what it comes down to, those that are annoyed are only thinking of themselves and not others.  Nerfing bishop or hammer does absolutely nothing to me or my game, but I takes away options from others.  No offense to those asking for nerfs, but it comes off as kind of selfish, imo.


    DAZ0273 said:
    Despite all this talk about nerfs though I don't see any changes in leaderboards. I don't see 5* players not hitting 2000 in Sim. There is still collusion in PvP which makes Bishop etc irrelevant. Bishop isn't even an issue in pick 2 Pvp. I see 5* players who want 4* characters nerfed without their 5* characters touched or treated in equal fashion. I wonder at players talking about healthpacks when they have hundreds stockpiled. This whole thread/poll is a strange exercise which none of us will win I fear, especially when players continue to vote one way but their comments suggest they want to play both ends against the middle. Fun I guess?
    This right here.  Top winners rarely change, even as the meta changes.  Taking away tools because it inconveniences you, with no regard to how it impacts those who are trying to come up, is the wrong way to come about.  
    Was the 5* or 3* gambit nerf just taking away players options?

    Maybe, sure.  Bad character design and fixing them is a different conversation altogether.  I, and i think i am not alone in this opinion, do not trust the people responsible for this game to properly nerf a character.   History with gambit alone proves this.

    But you still don't address the core of the issue: are these characters preventing you from getting rewards you think you would get if they were otherwise changed.  If so, please elaborate.  

    I have already said that i do just fine.  I get to 900 really easy, both in slice 1 and 5, and get to 1200 in slice 1 when i remember to join early enough or care enough to do it.  The number of bishop or hammer teams vary from at least 3, to maybe 10, that I skip around in my 18-25 matches.  And the only reason i skip around hammer is because it is so boring.  I went out of my way to champ 5hawkeye recently, even buying his last cover when he was essential, just to see what all the fuss was about.  What a snoozefest.
  • winter37
    winter37 Posts: 54 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I voted buff, for the same reason that a lot of others have stated, and made excellent cases for here: There are a ton of characters who are dead wieight to the point of not being good, mostly seemingly from power creep over time from the demands of the current meta. 

    There have been a lot of folks clamoring for a fix for Bishop and Worthy Cap because it's ridiculous that they rule current meta in 5* play ( I agree). I also hear that they are important counters for 4* meta against teams like Grockets variants, Medusa/carnage/mr f shenanigans, etc, and I agree with that too.

    Consider Archangel: A mid-tier 5* (at best), that serves the important role of serving as a direct counter to Vulture teams from running riot over everybody else on the 5* level of play. We need 5* characters with abilities that function as hard counters to multiple countdown tile creation and the jump in front mechanic (but please give the Thing a buff if this happens, he's long overdue for one anyway). 

    In terms of individual characters, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Kingpin, Black WIdow, Wasp, Star-Lord, and Bruce Banner are in dire need of a buff as far as 5*s go. For 4*'s, please consider Kraven, Quake, Sandman, Winter Soldier, Lockjaw, Mysterio, and Dazzler.

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