Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • winter37
    winter37 Posts: 54 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    KGB said:

    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
    BSSM is literally the Sex Panther of MPQ, because "60% of the time, it works all the time". I've shut down Gritty teams with him quite a bit, but also suffered a lot of losses while trying to do so.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Daredevil217 said:
    Spudgutter said:
    The rockett said:

    I shared a SS on discord of a SIM match against HE/Hammer Cap with my A team of 516 OK,  505 Thor and 490 JJ. 

    1st move:
    Me:  match 3 that hit a cascade which I ended with 9 AP. 
    AI:  PRE 1st move after all the Hammer Cap tiles  do their countdown thing. 
    blue AP:30
    Red AP:26 

    Yes that was before AI made 1 move they had over 30 blue and 26 red AP. You cannot make a match against Hammer or Bishop without their passive going off.  If that is not broken, then I have no idea what is.  

    C'mon, i don't remember what logical fallacy this falls under, but it is pretty blatant. You think you represent anything resembling the average player?  I'm top 50 cl9 pve with 900/1200 pvp.  Day 2221 with 10 million Iso sitting in the bank and 400+ pulls waiting on the next 5* so i can champ whomever it is with carbage and brb and add them to my 27 other 5* champs.  And even with all that, my best 5* are between 460 and 463, and i only just recently maxed out my second 4* champ literally yesterday.  

    Of course the AI is going to have maximum ap in that scenario. No one is surprised by this.  Show me when you do that with 4*, and I'll listen.  But just as an example, my 366 Coulson, boosted in pvp right now, does 1137 in his strongest color, just barely enough to trigger the 1059 requirement of my level 297 bishop.  But again, the number of people with almost maxed coulsons cannot come close to those that don't. 
    I think the logical fallacy is "anecdotal evidence", where you take one personal example and generalize it and assume it's the norm.  The thing is, for 5* players, it is a pretty common occurrence.

    As for the rest, I think it is a pretty reductionist view of the whole Bishop problem.  I could just as easily call players saying "don't nerf!" selfish because they are only thinking about how Bishop allows them to punch up (4* players) or how he gives them a "free shield" (5* players).  With no regard for the fact that I can't make a match-3 in a match 3 game without the enemy getting 30 AP and stun-locking my team.  We could toss that word around both ways.

    I'm not saying that kind of AP gain isn't common; it's expected.  What is coming off as kind of disingenuous is that we are shocked, Shocked! I say, that it occurs.  Of course it occurs.  Someone playing at our level knows exactly what is going to happen in that scenario.  The trick, or puzzle if you will, is finding a way to play and win that match.  And I'm saying there are ways to do that, especially with a deep roster like Rocket has.  It might not be 100% foolproof, but that is why the game gives you the option to skip opponents.  

    That's not exactly a good example of selfish, re:4* players, because there are also 5* players such as myself, that are asking them not to nerf anyone.  Besides, them getting better rewards are not keeping you from getting rewards.  See my other post above to tio, you honestly think that kgb and other 4* players that are using bishop to help them with gritty teams is somehow leading to you getting less rewards?  Please elaborate.

    Also, and this goes hand in hand with other people with their problems with gritty, but "A 4* obliterating 95% of the tier above... not so much. " doesn't sit well either.  it's the team.  and this isn't 100% directed at you, there are others going on about kitty/rocket, and your quote was just easier to grab since it was at the bottom of the last page.

    lets test your theory.  Next up is loki, so we can't use the 5* version, but use bishop and run with kingpin, captain marvel, black widow, starlord, cap-first avenger, phoenix, hulk, iron man, panther, thanos, gambit, OML, kitty or green goblin during this next pick 2 pvp.  Let me know how many defense wins you get, and how many defensive losses you get.  Same for rocket, kitty and hammer.  those that are asking for nerf of a character, tell me how well you do when they don't have good synergy.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:



    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
    I’m not against making Wasp the second unstunable character or a buff to weaker characters in general. I’m against that specific character and Surfer being the only counter to a character a tier below them. A top tier 5* obliterating 95% of the tier below them makes sense. A 4* obliterating 95% of the tier above... not so much. 
    You're in luck! Surfer is not the only Bishop counter!  Doc Ock is immune to stun as well.  Black widow stuns someone randomly if someone is stunned as well.  So just run teams that include the stun proof guys and you'll be all set.  Next pvp try out ock and surfer, see how well you do
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m sorry, but who is saying anything about rewards? Contrary to popular belief, it’s not just about rewards for some people. Some people care about how the game itself plays. All of us clamoring for the return of gauntlet aren’t doing so for those sweet sweet rewards. Being stunlocked 4 turns while your team gets obliterated is simply unfun. And a character getting 30 AP on turn 0 is broken. 

    “The number of bishop or hammer teams vary from at least 3, to maybe 10, that I skip around in my 18-25 matches.”

    If that’s your way of “handling” them, then what that means to me is those players get a free shield. I mean I do the same (both use Bish as my shield and skip other Bish teams) so I’m not judging. Just pointing out that this is what people mean by “free shield”. 

    To your last point... I could run any team and not know how many chose to skip me and who hit me just to avoid Bishop and top tier 5. I know for me I would skip a Bishop/Goblin team in favor of hitting a Thorkoye or Gritty team easily. Which is kind of crazy. But Bish is that good (and Gobby is underrated!). 

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:



    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
    I’m not against making Wasp the second unstunable character or a buff to weaker characters in general. I’m against that specific character and Surfer being the only counter to a character a tier below them. A top tier 5* obliterating 95% of the tier below them makes sense. A 4* obliterating 95% of the tier above... not so much. 
    You're in luck! Surfer is not the only Bishop counter!  Doc Ock is immune to stun as well.  Black widow stuns someone randomly if someone is stunned as well.  So just run teams that include the stun proof guys and you'll be all set.  Next pvp try out ock and surfer, see how well you do
    Match 1 after 3 seeds in Mags PVP I was matched up with Bish/Jess. I tried Ock/Surfer per your request. Got annihilated. Bishop hit me with a bunch of overclocks. Mags continued to spam blue fueled by Bishop. Bishop eventually fell but Jess finished the job. Easy win for the CPU. Match 1. Could’ve used three packs and tried again but 1200 is a long climb!
  • dingo
    dingo Posts: 46 Just Dropped In
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    231 votes that represent this forum (as of now) seems like a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Maybe that's what they're trying to tell us.... just sayin'
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    dingo said:
    231 votes that represent this forum (as of now) seems like a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Maybe that's what they're trying to tell us.... just sayin'

    But the Forum also represents a focused group of dedicated players and so also contains vital information.


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    This is like asking why the specs of iPhone 7 (2016 release) isn't as good as iPhone 11 (2019 release). It's because time changes. Things get better over time. It's a general truth that you can see and observe happening to many things in your life. This phenomenon in many (card) games is called power creep. It's both positive and negative effects.

    They might end up doing health and match damage changes because it should be easier. Asking them to do damage/ap etc changes to a bunch of characters are likely to be difficult. This will require them to fully focus on testing and such for the next many months.
  • leoperez90
    leoperez90 Posts: 66 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    This is getting old. 

    All I'm reading is about bishop and cap(good points and ideas are being thrown out there) 

    Can we get an answer already tho? This is getting quite long 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    leoperez90 said:
    This is getting old. 

    All I'm reading is about bishop and cap(good points and ideas are being thrown out there) 

    Can we get an answer already tho? This is getting quite long 

    From the OP:
    IceIX
    I’ll note that I’m not saying that we’ll jump on all this immediately.




  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Daredevil217 said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Daredevil217 said:



    And buffing Wasp so she counters Bishop is not the answer (this one isn't a reply to you Spud- I've just seen a few mention it).  We already have that in Surfer.  Having 1-2 characters that sidestep or punish Bishop's mechanics is great for those lucky enough to have those 1-2 characters.  He will still obliterate the other 95% of the tier above him.  He needs to be adjusted.
    You could argue the same thing for kitty and rocket.  95% of the 5 star tier cant deal with them  either.
    95% of the 4* tier can't either. I absolutely need Bishop (or WorthyCap) to have a reliable way to beat Kitty/Rocket in 4* land. Most of the counter teams in Shield Sim end up as Bishop/Peggy/XPool or Carol/WorthyCap/Rocket since you run into the wall of Gritty around 1700ish.

    @Daredevil217 Not sure why you are against more counters when the 4* tier has more and more counters and is better for it. A 2nd 5* who is immune to Stun, especially one with opposite colors of Surfer would be a great addition allowing you to team them together for an anti-stun team.

    Another potential power that I suggested for a 5* would be passive AP reduction (1 per cover). So with 3 cover it would be 3 less passive AP per match for Bishop and 5*Hawkeye (plus a host of other characters like Carol etc) meaning he would take that much longer to be able to use his stun.

    Or another interesting power would be a passive that unstuns any stunned teammate at the start of the turn. So that character themselves could be stunned, but if any of their teammates were stunned at the start of the turn they would automatically unstun them (if ProfX didn't exist it would make an ideal power for someone like Xavier to have). Then as long as this character didn't end up in front you'd undo any stuns from Bishop/WorthyCap.

    There are lots of possibilities that don't involve nerfing Bishop/WorthyCap.

    KGB
    I’m not against making Wasp the second unstunable character or a buff to weaker characters in general. I’m against that specific character and Surfer being the only counter to a character a tier below them. A top tier 5* obliterating 95% of the tier below them makes sense. A 4* obliterating 95% of the tier above... not so much. 
    You're in luck! Surfer is not the only Bishop counter!  Doc Ock is immune to stun as well.  Black widow stuns someone randomly if someone is stunned as well.  So just run teams that include the stun proof guys and you'll be all set.  Next pvp try out ock and surfer, see how well you do
    Match 1 after 3 seeds in Mags PVP I was matched up with Bish/Jess. I tried Ock/Surfer per your request. Got annihilated. Bishop hit me with a bunch of overclocks. Mags continued to spam blue fueled by Bishop. Bishop eventually fell but Jess finished the job. Easy win for the CPU. Match 1. Could’ve used three packs and tried again but 1200 is a long climb!
    Well, my post was supposed to be a bit tongue-in-cheek.  You weren't supposed to *actually* do it  but I'm glad you did.  The 2-3 "counters" are far too slow to win in today's game and have too low health and match damage to boot.  Every match would go about the same if you tried again
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    HoundofShadow said:
    This is like asking why the specs of iPhone 7 (2016 release) isn't as good as iPhone 11 (2019 release). It's because time changes. Things get better over time. It's a general truth that you can see and observe happening to many things in your life. This phenomenon in many (card) games is called power creep. It's both positive and negative effects.

    They might end up doing health and match damage changes because it should be easier. Asking them to do damage/ap etc changes to a bunch of characters are likely to be difficult. This will require them to fully focus on testing and such for the next many months.
    This is very true.  That's why beta Ray bill and carnage are much better than old trash characters like thor or kitty or okoye or thanos (if you play pve).  Same with 4 stars.  Why would you use rocket or Carol or medusa or juggernaut when you can use northstar and MODOK? They're newer and therefore better.  I'm surprised people still use bishop.  Hes super old and so he cant be too strong anymore
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I know what you are trying to say *sarcastically* but that conversation is limited to only HP and match damage.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    HoundofShadow said:
    I know what you are trying to say *sarcastically* but that conversation is limited to only HP and match damage.
    I'm just saying power creep is silly in that one area alone.  People have complained about it for forever.  It's silly that it's just 5 stars that they do it with.  They should make 4 star match damage higher and higher if that's the case.  Hey, if they make it high enough maybe bishop will suck for 4 star guys too!  
     But anyway it's something they do on purpose but then pretend to be surprised by it.  As I've said before, they can fix the problem by stopping the creation of that problem (dont increase every single new 5)
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Electronics or any other consumer product driven by market demand for that matter doesn’t relate in any way to a video game or the in game economics.

    There is no reason the older fives need to be worse than the newer fives in any capacity. They are just as hard (in most cases harder) to acquire and if they were buffed to be relevant people would chase them just as much.

    Fun fact, an IPhone that is five generations old still runs the same software version as a brand new one. In most real world usage there won’t be major differences for the end user either. There is a trade off for upgrading as well, like losing the home button, headphone jack, haptic feedback , even a superior aspect ratio depending on the model. This means that to some people a 6s is still superior, a 7 might be the right choice, same all the way up the line because they aren’t clearly inferior products. Given that, even if we want to pretend that analogy holds up, it’s still not relevant.

    Specs matter on MPQ toons in a real way. Since they are just numbers in code, they can be changed much easier than say....recalling all the old IPhones to place a better chip and some more RAM in it.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    1.  At some point you can't run software on old hardware.  I'm not sure what model you consider "5 generations old" but MPQ won't run on an old enough iphone.  And it's just a match3 game with 2D art.

    2.  The easiest to buy characters in the game - at least, once you are out of the 3 tier - are the Latest 3 5's (and I guess people in a special store).  Dilution makes anyone else very hard to finish or build up significantly other than through focused long term targeting.  Therefore it's incorrect to suggest that somehow it's not in the devs' best interest to power creep new 5's.

    New 5's are what whales chase - mostly.  So if you are a new whale (good luck!) you would want more powerful 5's in order to be competitive with existing whales.  If you are an "old" whale you could easily skip new 5's that weren't as good as the 550s you already have, so the devs definitely want to make the new ones as appealing as possible.

    For the non-whales, chance are good you are getting just a few covers for any 5 and giving the newer ones higher match dmg makes you happier since they help you from the get go, therefore making you more interested in pulling Latests and glad to get the newest 5's.

    Match damage is a default passive for all 5's, and making it go up helps the devs' (implied) argument that there is a point in continuing to add characters to a game with 202 of them.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    A 6s or 6s plus which is technically seven generations at this point but five years old will run the current IOS and MPQ. Not sure how much backward compatibility you need for that to be a relevant point. Besides, the analogy had nothing to do with the phone running MPQ in the first place.

    As for the rest, I disagree. Specifically because I disagree with the reasoning behind your ideas. 

    MPQ should be looking to keep current players engaged as well as give new players a reason to chase those older 5*s, it will be much less work making them relevant than continuing to pump out new 5s at the same pace forever. The return on investment should be easily equal to or even better than that of a new 5* given they would open a special store long enough to allow people to chase characters they never had a chance at or skipped altogether just because they weren’t meta or because they were terrible. 

    Whales Whales Whales. New and old they all pay the bills. They chase what makes sense, currently that is the latest 3, it doesn’t have to be that way.

    Why do you think Apple puts in all the work of keeping such an old phone relevant for instance? If you spend on the App Store, subscribe to ITunes music, purchase media or games, you are bringing in money to their platform...so it pays to keep you around as long as possible even if you aren’t looking for the shiny new hardware once a year.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Daredevil217 said:
    I’m sorry, but who is saying anything about rewards? Contrary to popular belief, it’s not just about rewards for some people. Some people care about how the game itself plays. All of us clamoring for the return of gauntlet aren’t doing so for those sweet sweet rewards. Being stunlocked 4 turns while your team gets obliterated is simply unfun. And a character getting 30 AP on turn 0 is broken. 

    “The number of bishop or hammer teams vary from at least 3, to maybe 10, that I skip around in my 18-25 matches.”

    If that’s your way of “handling” them, then what that means to me is those players get a free shield. I mean I do the same (both use Bish as my shield and skip other Bish teams) so I’m not judging. Just pointing out that this is what people mean by “free shield”. 

    To your last point... I could run any team and not know how many chose to skip me and who hit me just to avoid Bishop and top tier 5. I know for me I would skip a Bishop/Goblin team in favor of hitting a Thorkoye or Gritty team easily. Which is kind of crazy. But Bish is that good (and Gobby is underrated!). 

    I also skip people that are way into the 515+ levels and above, way more than the number of bishop i see.  Should we nerf their roster as well, since their level advantage has me give them a "free" shield?

    I also want people to enjoy how they play, which is why i am listening to those that say bishop helps them punch up or deal with gritty.  The point of bringing up the rewards is that everyone is still getting what they want out of the game.  You are asking them to remove something that is basically annoying to you, while not taking into account how it may hurt others.  So what if they get a "free" shield? How is that impacting your play?  Do you also think we should remove names from pvp, to reduce outside communication for shield hops?  *edit*

    And goblin is fun, but a) i don't think many people believe he is top tier and b) i believe you would get hit a ton if you ran that team.

    Edit*  I'm dumb, this is a thread about fixing characters, so this dialogue is exactly what they are looking for, so i took out that last line.  Heck, who made me the arbiter for the game either?  Opinions are meant to be shared, even when we disagree 

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