Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • Jexy
    Jexy Posts: 52 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I agree with the "buff old 5*s" crowd. Especially Phoenix and Silver Surfer. I'm not sure that just upping their match damage is enough. My 456 GR hits hard on matches but is still not a very effective character.

    Cap Worthy is super boring to fight, please change that one. I don't mind Bishop as much because I can counter him with Bishop. And it goes quickly. Cap Worthy puts me & my phone to sleep. Bad character. And I have him champed, so it's not sour grapes.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    Circuit breaker is a countdown not a repeater.

    Check again
    Te he he. My bad. I think I was confusing her red with purple. I'm gonna go hide now. Until I see another good opening to gripe about bishop.
  • The Viceroy Returns
    The Viceroy Returns Posts: 493 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Just standardizing 5-Star Match Damage and Hit Points in some way would go a long way to making older 5-Stars more usable.

    For example, by my tracking, out of the 39 some 5-Star characters that have been released, there are over 20 different Hit Point upgrade tracks., almost every single one has a different Match Damage progression, with the highest ones being the most recent releases.
    By comparison, the 4-Star tier only has about 13 Hit Point tracks, but realistically only about 4 or 5 as most haven't been used in last 2+ years of releases, and they all share the exact same Match Damage track.

    This would help with the power creep that has left more than half of them in the dust.
    This was especially noticeable with 5-Star banner Hulk being required for the current PVE.  Easily the worst 5-Star (for more reasons than this), and his terrible Hit Points and Match Damage certainly doesn't help his cause.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I will be honest, boost under powered characters.  The history of nerfs in this game is awful.  Everytime the devs have nerfed a character (the first Gambit "nerf" is the exception of course, while the second Gambit nerf is an example of the rule) you just kill the character, making them way below average. 

    Are there characters that need adjustments to change problematic skills?  Yes, Bishop and Worthy are examples because of the out sized impact they have on the 5* tier, they are completely fine in the 4* tier.  Simply raising their damage  is a 5* solution but then makes them completely useless in the 4* tier, thereby making the characters not able to function any longer.   

    Gritty is a ridiculous combo because it does so many things and is so fast. I actually put more blame on Grocket as I feel Kitty herself is good but not overpowered.  You have made so many characters to address Grocket and/or Gritty, that we got Bishop and Worthy.  So in a sense, perhaps Grocket is the real issue since he sped up the meta across the board so much, all characters you make are measured against that  in some way.  
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    DyingLegend said:
    Buff under used characters and give them the ability to counter play some of the stronger characters.

    Also some characters abilities need more synergy in there own kit. For instance. Archangel causes damage when an enemy is airborne, yet only a handful of characters go airborne or can send enemies airborne. What gives? AA should be able to send enemies airborne. In fact he should do it passively after a certain condition is met.



    Interesting tidbit, AA was originally released to be a counter to the original Gambit, by sending him airborne and taking him out of the fight for a few rounds.  AA was pathetically too slow though to really do anything against old Gambit.  By the time you had the AP to fire his airborne move, Gambit had already killed you.  AA has an ok power set, he just needs all of AP costs reduced to fire his powers imo.  
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    starlord1982 said:
    Nerf bishop and hammercap. There is no reason for them to be overpowering for 5s but to be so weak against their own tier. For instance xfdp is very good in his tier, he can even slightly punch upward but he is not meta where most 5* rosters would skip over him. 
    The saddest thing about bishop is in SIM every season, where people will float for 2 weeks without losing points. Is it kitty or r4g that people are skipping? Nope is the instant stun lock of bishop. 
    I generally skip Gritty teams but I fight Bishop teams because I generally take less damage from them.  It all depends on what your roster is like btw. I can hard counter Bishop with specific mixed 4* and 5* teams pretty easily.  I of course skip all Gritty + Bishop teams, but once again not because of Bishop. If I had a 5* BSS I would pound on Gritty teams....but I don't.  

    I would also say that most 4* players would say Gritty is a bigger problem than Bishop. As a 5* player,  I can beat Gritty teams with Okoye & XFDP but it isn't always a sure thing as I lose about 25% of those matches due to not having enough team up matches early in the game or unfortunate AI cascades.  I almost always need 1 to 2 health packs  even when I win due to the damage Okoye and other 5* I pair with them takes. ( I can mitigate Okoye damage with her healing if I am not in a hurry of course).  XFDP usually takes no damage unless I wipe completely.  The key is I rarely ever lose to Bishop only teams (w/o Gritty) and I usually one have to spend 1 health pack in most cases beating those teams. 
  • MoosePrime
    MoosePrime Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Warbringa said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Buff under used characters and give them the ability to counter play some of the stronger characters.

    Also some characters abilities need more synergy in there own kit. For instance. Archangel causes damage when an enemy is airborne, yet only a handful of characters go airborne or can send enemies airborne. What gives? AA should be able to send enemies airborne. In fact he should do it passively after a certain condition is met.



    Interesting tidbit, AA was originally released to be a counter to the original Gambit, by sending him airborne and taking him out of the fight for a few rounds.  AA was pathetically too slow though to really do anything against old Gambit.  By the time you had the AP to fire his airborne move, Gambit had already killed you.  AA has an ok power set, he just needs all of AP costs reduced to fire his powers imo.  
    AA doesn't actually send enemies airborne.  His counter was preventing AP gain in a chosen color.  You're correct about it being too slow to effectively counter Gambit.
  • Jacklag
    Jacklag Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Ok, so what I'm getting from this is that to make everybody happy they should nerf both Bishop and Gritty. All in favor?
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,077 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Leave Bishop and HammerCap alone and focus on buffing some underpowered characters.
  • Godzillafan67
    Godzillafan67 Posts: 634 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    An important note: At 163 votes having been cast thus far, exactly zero of those are for "Balance is fine right now".

  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    A_Wise_Man said:
    Why is it that people like bishop and hammercap so much on these here forums?  I've seen several people saying not to nerf them.  I'm just curious---you think it's ok for characters not to allow a simple matching of 3 in a match 3 game?  Build counters?  They *are* counters built to counter a broken 4 star and are themselves more broken.  Any further counter would be even more broken and OP.  

    4 stars shouldn't be able to compete with 5 stars, period.  Pull off a win against them? Sure.  But the 5s should be able to steamroll them back.  If 4 star players want to keep the annoying factor there, that's fine.  But then release a 3 star that beats 4 stars 50% of the time on defense and allows 3 star players to hit 4 star players as well.  Make a 2 star that does the same to 3 stars.  Punish everyone for moving up.  Then see who wants to move up.
    Indeed both need their powers altered as a 5* player but you are looking at them from your point of view only.  4* players don't care about your gripes about either of them because neither is really much of an issue for pure 4* players.  They have problems of their own in the 4* tier. I imagine there are many 4* or early 5* players who lean on them to punch above their rosters normal weight who would defend them is my guess.

    I ask the same thing about people who defend Gritty as you do about Bishop and Hammercap btw.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    MoosePrime said:
    Warbringa said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Buff under used characters and give them the ability to counter play some of the stronger characters.

    Also some characters abilities need more synergy in there own kit. For instance. Archangel causes damage when an enemy is airborne, yet only a handful of characters go airborne or can send enemies airborne. What gives? AA should be able to send enemies airborne. In fact he should do it passively after a certain condition is met.



    Interesting tidbit, AA was originally released to be a counter to the original Gambit, by sending him airborne and taking him out of the fight for a few rounds.  AA was pathetically too slow though to really do anything against old Gambit.  By the time you had the AP to fire his airborne move, Gambit had already killed you.  AA has an ok power set, he just needs all of AP costs reduced to fire his powers imo.  
    AA doesn't actually send enemies airborne.  His counter was preventing AP gain in a chosen color.  You're correct about it being too slow to effectively counter Gambit.
    Good catch, I haven't used him in forever I forgot the how his powers actually worked, just remembered his initial purpose lol.
  • jackstar0
    jackstar0 Posts: 1,280 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Give us many buffs!

    After those have been absorbed into the game and we see what happens, then you can do a couple nerfs, as a treat.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    HoundofShadow said:
    Background info: 4* player with majority of 4* champed. Plays PvPs and PvEs competitively, but not competitive enough to join LINE.

    Nerf

    1. 5* Thor passive ap gain
    2. Gritty's purple that overwrite those 4 special tiles.
    3. Bishop

    Reason for choosing Thor is because he's the measuring stick (due to gaining 5 aps per turn) for future 5* characters. In order to replace Thor, someone need to be better than what Thor is doing.

    Reason for choosing Bishop is so that we have something new to talk about here.

    The only threat Hammercap presents is him taking forever for his CDs to finish. He's only good with C4rol/R4G and 5* Hawkeye. 

     
    Generally speaking, I prefer buffs and hard counters more than nerfs because

    1. meta comes and goes
    2. putting together teams to beat meta teams is like solving puzzles.

    If the dev decided to buff characters, especially 5* characters, make sure they fall into meta or good tier. If not, you are wasting your time. I think the reworked 5* Dr Ock is a good example. He still belongs to the bottom tier even with increased match damage and higher damage.
    Agree, in principle on everything but Thor. There will always be meta characters, ditching his AP gain removes him from meta and probably any play.   He speeds up the game, which is a plus for everyone who has him or anyone who wants to eventually get him. He is easy to beat on defense.  Bishop/Worthy/Gritty are generally more called for nerfs because they make it so you are generally attacked less which really hurts the way PvP works. Hence the complaint of why the Sim is all Gritty & Bishop beyond a certain level.   In fact I would argue that Bishop/Worthy/Gritty basically break the general principles of the game. Great offense and great defense.  

    Thor is clearly a meta character but without his AP gain he drops to being average character at best and is relegated to never being used. I argue that Okoye is actually better and the best meta character because she can significantly enhance a large number of normally useless characters with her passive, self-heal (true healing) and deal good damage with her red (and passive).  Hence why Thorkoye is so popular.  The key though is that they are easy to beat on defense, no one skips a Thorkoye team (unless it is paired with Bishop!).  
  • max5esq
    max5esq Posts: 58 Match Maker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    The answer is a bit a both, however the nerfing should be as minimal as possible, for example, a Kraven fix could at the start of his turn Kraven removes half the strike tiles on the board, if you do something like that you don't have to nerf Gritty. Bishop might need to be fixed. This game is very weird in the fact that their is a disincentive to move to 5 star land, I have several 5 stars fully covered but not the meta ones so I would be in a really bad place if I champed them. There is too much Kitty, Bishop Cap and 4 star Groot but outside of Bishop I see easy solutions to all of them, builidng hard counters like AA was to vulture can let you nerf fewer charecters which should be the goal.

      For a while a a character was getting updated every month, that was a good thing, not all the updates were great but I think everyone agrees that was a good thing. I would change the release schedule and cut the number of new characters in half and i the mean time buff 2 weaker characters.  Lots of buffs maybe 1  or 2 nerfs but iff you do the buffs right you can nerf less.
  • TriSentinel
    TriSentinel Posts: 140 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Marc_Spector said:

    BISHOP:
    An idea I had this morning: Rather than having Bishop be an irritating wall from the start of battle, why not have his blue AP-gen ramp up over time via damage received to just him or the team? The coding exists to track how much damage a character has done over time (see: Ghost Rider’s black.) Can that be modified to track how much total damage a whole team has done (and/or, taken) over time?
    Then we could have something like:
    “For every 1000 damage done by the enemy to your team, Bishop generates 1 blue AP”. 
    This would prevent the problem of a first move triggering Bishop’s passive so heavily as it stands now, making him more of a ticking time bomb building up that absorbed energy over time. Start of battle matches? Not a problem. Attacking his team with a powerful 10,000 dmg move? Prepare to eat a major stun next round (unless able to stun the enemy Bishop first). This would add an element of strategy … and, dare I say, an element of PUZZLING?… to Bishop fights.

    5* MATCH DAMAGE:
    I’ve been trying to find this on the forum but can’t — Has it ever been officially explained why 5*s have such wildly divergent match damage ranges across the entire rank? It makes it hard and annoying to remember who-tanks-which-color among characters who are equal level. Was the point to shake that up and make it harder to plan for that exact thing? Before 5*s existed, I liked knowing that two characters of same level in same rank would do equal match damage on the 1st/2nd/3rd colors, and planning teams around that to be able to keep someone specific on the front line / someone else hidden away. If I had my druthers, 5* match damage would be equalized the same way across the entire rank — but if that’s too much to ask more, at least a boost to the match damage of older 5*s as others have asked for.

    UNDERPERFORMING 4*s:
    Emma Frost — Apropos character-design lore-wise (as she can’t use any mental powers while in diamond form) but the execution here doesn’t make for a fun character. Shifting to Diamond Skin usually leaves me trapped like that due to some random fortified strike tile the enemy will never be able to reach, while they then match away or destroy my yellow/purple repeaters that I can’t recast, leaving Emma as nothing but a high-match-damage punching bag for the rest of match. Maybe she should switch back to normal — or, have the OPTION to switch back (at zero, or low amount of black AP) once one of her repeaters is matched or destroyed? (Also, shouldn’t diamond skin reduce incoming damage as well?? Diamonds are tough, y’know!)
    Kraven — for how little his blue trap tile does, I’m aghast at its 10AP cost. 6-7 would seem more reasonable, as would allowing multiple traps on the board to steal 1AP each, instead of just 1AP total for however many traps are out. I would honestly vote this as the most pathetic active-power in the entire 4* tier.
    Flaptain — was already junky on launch when most countdowns were things you’d WANT to hasten/resolve, but becomes even worse with every countdown added which one would want to keep on the board for an added effect. It’s probably too much to ask for his passive to smartly differentiate between the two.

    UNDERPERFORMING 5*s:
    5*Kingpin — The phrase “too many notes” from the film Amadeus comes to mind. I covered him fairly quickly, and never use him unless required — as his (adequate-at-best) moves require too much thinking. XD  Comparing AP amounts each turn is thematically fun via the Fisk-as-businessman theme you’re going for here, but is not conducive to fast play.
    5*Banner. Is. So. Boring.  A fun meat-shield to play with when buffed, but I don’t think the “extra life” of his Hulk-form is enough of a trade-off for how little else he can do (let alone the no AP gen on his auto-matches, which feels even worse now that 5*Carnage’s auto-matches DO generate AP.). Not irredeemably terrible, but phenomenally less exciting than any Hulk deserves to be.
    5*Wasp on the other hand is a frustrating dumpster-fire of interesting ideas that just don’t work in practice — which was such a shame as I love her character in the films and love her artwork in MPQ. The community (correctly) labelled her dead-on-arrival upon release, and of course that meant fates would conspire to have her become my fastest-covered 5* ever. I levelled her merely for sh*ts&giggles to see if she could work as a fun troll-character in any capacity, and she can’t even do THAT well. The only notable thing going for her is a less-common color combination. She just has no synergy with anyone at all, and her 4* counterpart bests her in every conceivable way. Someone said it best earlier in the thread: There should not BE trash-tier 5*s, and Wa5p is the poster child.

    Thanks again for your attention to character-balance! I hope for a fun and dynamic year for MPQ devs and players alike.

    Agreed, Bishop doesn't need to be broken, but the mechanic needs to be spread out over several turns. Let him keep his damage blast, stun, AP destruction, and AP gain, but spread those effects over several turns so that matches aren't over on turn 0.5. Maybe he needs an additional mechanic like if there are shield tiles on the board that he hasn't eaten then he doesn't move to the front.There are ways to fix the turn 0.5 team kill while keeping him effective, fun, and interesting to use.

    Also agreed on 5*s. Banner needs a fix, Wa5p needs an overhaul (it feels like she belongs in a different game), and older 5*s needs match damage increased to keep up with the newer ones.

    Emma Frost is close to useless right now and is just dead weight on any team.

    Kraven should be more effective, as a hunter I expected an invisibility mechanic for him so he could hide and ambush, but we got a sad trap tile instead.
  • dokiy
    dokiy Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    BUFF AWAY


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