Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

tiomono

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

AlexR said:

starlord1982 said:

Nerf bishop and hammercap. There is no reason for them to be overpowering for 5s but to be so weak against their own tier. For instance xfdp is very good in his tier, he can even slightly punch upward but he is not meta where most 5* rosters would skip over him. 
The saddest thing about bishop is in SIM every season, where people will float for 2 weeks without losing points. Is it kitty or r4g that people are skipping? Nope is the instant stun lock of bishop. 

Actually, yes there is. Bishop and Worthy are the 4* tier's answer to the relentless Gritty spam that ruled supreme in 4* land. These characters work great as counters to the 5* that haunts and torments 4* land and that's imo what these two were clearly designed for.

So while there should be some fix for 5* players, just nerfhammering Bishop/Worthy would result in taking 4* land's primary Kitty counters away. very much do not want.  

But they go beyond that. If they were intended as a fix to gritty spam then why in the world do they trigger off of all 5* match damage when kitty or grocket are not even the opponent? 2 characters from a tier below the top triggering off of basic match 3's of the entire 5* tier is something I very much do not want.

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Generally speaking, 

4* players want to punch above their weights and at the same time, don't want to get steamrolled by 5* players.

5* players want to steamroll anyone below them.

I think this is a tough puzzle to solve, given the current MMR.

I think different themed PvPs do a good job of slightly solving this. It is proven that different set of rules/conditions change who the meta characters are for that particular PvP.

Mayo

I think bishop and hammer cap exist to break the monopoly of 5* thor/ okoye and maybe kitty/ groot. Why? Because the number of players who use them is small nonetheless have spend lots of resources to get them to were they are however that also affects a bigger player base who get pummeled to stress levels by them and who in the long run will keep the game running. 
If you want to stop fighting the same teams at the end of every pvp maybe program an aleatory rotation of one of the three characters of the team each defensiva battle. 

Some tweaking need to be made to 5* thor and bishop imho. I do not see why 5* players can be so mediocre in playing them when most of them could use plenty other 5*s and make this game more enjoyable to everyone. 

If you want to tweak characters it is also neccesary to vary the game play approach of the game to penalize fast killing teams, maybe generate a debuffed list at the same time of the buffed character list. That would be a good exercise for everyone to try new team combinations. For some pvp even ban some characters as in yugioh tournaments to make the events more interesting and appealing for other players.

Giving some aditional buff or secret reward in sub boss and boss nodes for using a special team combinations in pve would also be interesting to test. 

Cheers! 
 

ThaRoadWarrior

Some characters could use super soldier serum

steamrolled is a strong word. " Be able to make more than one match-3 without stun-locking myself" is hardly asking to steamroll. Vulture/G4mora punch above their weight, but take several turns to get moving. Bishop body slams above his weight, and takes my start-of-battle turn to do it, not even his own turn. WCap is the same, assuming he is paired with Hawkeye.

Gladiathor is strong offensively, but can be beaten on defense. These hard-to-beat defensive teams are rough.

Daredevil217

Seem like the majority here are saying

1. Nerf Bishop/Cap
2. Buff older trash tier 5*s

As for #1 I personally think Cap is fine but will sacrifice him if it means hammering Bishop (RIP Hawkeye). 

As for #2 I’m in the camp of buffing match damage, health, and AP costs for 5s across the board and not even touching powers/abilities for now. Goblin, Phoenix, Surfer and Old Man Logan are examples of characters I think that could be vastly improved just off those numbers tweaks alone. While I’d like to see new kits for the Kingpins, Wasps, Banners and Carols of the world, I know that takes time. The numbers bumps feel like painting with a much broader brush and could make more people happy. If one of the characters buffed doesn’t happen to be one you have well-covered, while you’re still sitting on a high level champed garbage tier character... well that’s kind of a bummer...  but a universal bump to the oldies would be well-received across the board. 

BriMan2222

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

entrailbucket said:

Thor is the only answer. 
S
Bishop and 4* cap/Hawkeye are annoying and all, but 5* Thor generates 2000 free ap every turn.  If you nerf Thor it also fixes Okoye.  He's super old now, so new players will never get him; you'd only be affecting jaded old vets anyway. 

It's time.  Kill him.

Thor is easy.  Just save him for last and then keep him stunned.  Even if you can't keep him stunned if okoye is gone he doesn't hit all that hard on his own.  I can easily work around him just by saving him for last and then stunning him or nuking him once he's at half health. 

What I can't work around is getting stun locked for making one match 3 in a match 3 game.  I honestly can't believe bishop has been untouched for so long.  In every other game I've ever played I've never seen a character or class of character that is so obviously broken allowed to go wild for so long. 

How about Hammer Cap keeps the jump in front if you target his team mates but loses the effect if you target him directly and Bishop keeps his effects if you target him directly but loses the jump in front?  This way they can still do what they do, but you have a way to work around it.  Like a puzzle.

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

My definition of steamrolled is defeating tiers below easily and smoothly without much trouble and without thinking of 
who to choose. A good example is any team of 5* should steamroll 4* team. 4*/5* team should create a small hiccup.

Before those two road spikes exist, I heard how boring it is to face Thorokoye in PvPs.  If Bishop and Hammercap are nerfed, Thor should get the nerf to his passive 5ap gains as well. Because no other independent 5* can generate the number of aps that he can per turn consistently. 

To balance the 5* game, Thor should be nerfed because he's creating unbalance in the 5* tier due to his 5ap gain per turn. The only difference is Thor is manageable defensively while those two are a pain defensively.

ThaRoadWarrior

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I don't know man, MMR only shows us what it wants us to see. I was a 4* transitioner during the Gambit 2.0 reign of terror, and I never saw a completed 5* Gambit in pvp, so I was like "spsh, y'all are some 1%-ers up there complaining about tax cuts or something." But the conversation about Gambit was identical to what i see regarding Bishop - even people that had him were tired of using him. And now that I have 5* MMR, I assure you he is everywhere, and he is as bad as everyone is trying to tell you.

Steamroll does indeed typically mean to flatten all opposition without difficulty, and I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking for room to breath to give my non-Thor-having roster a chance to do some kind of thing.

The 5* acquisition rate being what it is, I'm NOT going to focus on Silver Surfer for 1.2 actual human years (not hyperbole, that is how long it will take me to shard target him) to then complain that SS is long in the tooth and barely functional. 

ZootSax

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I’m in favor of buffing and would like to see minor adjustments made every PVP season to at least one character.  These wouldn’t even necessarily be full reworks, but just minor adjustments to the damage/healing on powers or to the AP cost.  It’s an unreasonable goal to make every character “top tier”, but even bottom-feeder characters like 5* Banner and Wasp could at least climb to playable low tier characters with a few minor adjustments consistent with existing powers on other characters.  Many here have already given other examples for a variety of characters.

I’d also be in favor of removing the nerfs from 5* Logan, 4* Thor and 4* Wolverine, as none of them would likely even be high tier in the current state of the meta.

IceyOne

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I'd way rather see characters get buffed vs nerfing others. 

jackstar0

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Also, I'm glad that this thread exists. Thanks @IceIX for letting us voice our opinions and ideas with the idea that you all are actively interested. That means something.

Mrcl25

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Please don't nerf anyone. Just buff weaker and older characters so we have more options. 

PiMacleod

Some characters could use super soldier serum

::deep breath::

Buff the people we tease about.

Sure, we might complain about bishop or worthy...
But if we had more tools to deal with them consistently, perhaps there wouldnt be a wall of Bishop teams in Shield Sim past 1700 points.

Of course, we have a few niche options that people can quote to deal with them.  But those options are largely based on board luck, cascade luck, or both.  

A team of 4s shouldnt be required to beat any team of 4*/5* combo.  Which is what most arguments suggest.  You should be able to use a larger set of tools... And the highest tier of prize is the 5* character.  If they are ineffective against the 4*/5* combo, then something is weird with the value of the characters themselves.  

The 5*s should have a better toolset to deal with this.  One that can be countered by Bishop... Which could be countered by a different 5*... Which could be countered by Worthy...  Which could be countered by another 5*...  You get the point.

Dilution would be the ever-present enemy in this scenario, but its still a step in the right direction.  

Imagine if Fatpin was a hard counter for enemy countdowns that expired?  So worthycap is countered.... But out comes Bishop, who doesnt have that problem.  Then W5sp has a passive that states if a character would cause damage with a passive ability when it wasn't their turn, that they would be "shrunk", effectively stunning the character for X turns.

Just spit-ballin' here.  Ways to buff bad 5s, but leave a R/p/s system in place.

Glockoma

Some characters could use super soldier serum

What @jackstar0 said. Just doing starting the discussion and taking step 1 is solid. 

And from what I read, you probably won’t upset anyone with health and match/skill damage adjustments across the 5* trash tier.

Note: I also think that Grocket’s yellow could be the root of the problem. Perhaps reduce his multitudes of strikes into one, ala, Sentry style? Fortified even. You’ll probably hear the Kitty hate go down pretty fiercely. 

I don’t have a comment on Bishop or Worthy Cap as I don’t waste my time losing against them in the first place. 

jredd

Some characters could use super soldier serum

buff first, then see where we are at. and i absolutely loathe bishop and hammercap's mechanics. but i think making weak characters more useful would do more for the game overall. 

Jzinaz

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Voted for a buff with what I believe to be 3 valid reasons.

(1) There is no one in “Gawd” tier anymore. The gambit/OML pre nerf “gawd” tier is empty. There are a lot of superior characters in 5/4* land but once the meta catches up it will auto correct itself. 

(2) Speaking of the OML/gambit nerf, what a nightmare. Gambit must hold the record for most changes in the 5 the star tier and rage quits after the nerf. It’s a slippery slope when nerfing characters and will most likely end in MPQ losing some of the player base.

(3) On the flip side, I have never heard of anyone rage quitting over a good buff (4* riri/3* iron man come to mind). Engage not enrage your play base and make meaningful changes that MPQ players will praise you on. 

Perhaps I’ve said to much or not enough, either way the ball is in your court now... (drops mic and exits stage left)

omen

Some characters could use super soldier serum

SpammerCap and Bishop should not be triggered by a standard 5* match.

Surfer, Phoenix, Gobilin, Bolt, OML all could be great if their numbers were just updated.

Loki 5* could be really good if you dropped the cost of his green, raised the damage or made it fire every 2 turns.

Wasp and Banner need a real overhaul.

Captain Marvel 5* should be improved too. Her powers don't work together well. Maybe her repeaters could still tick down while she's airborne and she fortifies passively.

This is great news! Thanks for listening to what the players want.

Tony_Foot

Balance is fine right now

This is genius, another thread on bishop and buffing the old ones. Why now? Shards, buffing the old ones creates pressure to keep up for CP LT and maybe you might just start buying shards that they have invested time in. They make wasp, phx and say banner meta or top tier and all of a sudden you create a ton of pressure for little work on players to start getting covers for them, while still wanting to chase the new 5* each month. Be careful what you wish for. All this has been said already 1000 times, so why now.

Without easing up on new releases buffing the old ones does more for them than it does for me. As it stands I’m happy for about 20 of the old ones to sit with one cover and never pay them any attention. If they start moving them above JJ tier then I have a huge problem. 

Again be careful what you wish for.

This will only ever be about buffs not just nerfs, nerfs generate no money and leave people feeling sore. Buffs of old characters generate money and pressure. 

I would vote if the release schedule was altered for buffs but it won’t and the dilution will keep on rolling.

Storm of fire

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I think more characters deserve buffs than deserve nerfs, so I voted accordingly... 

Not a 5* player, but there are some that I dread the thought of when they're in the PvE rotation - Bruce Banner, Wasp, Doc Ock, CA:FA, SS - either because I can't figure out how to use their powers or because they're underwhelming.

In 4* land, I definitely would like to see Bishop addressed. Maybe tweak the number of Hammer!Cap's countdowns as well, because uh... when both teams have one and it takes over a minute for the enemy to move and my turn to start I feel something needs to be done.
But more than that I'd love to play with characters like Domino, Talos, Mysterio, Black Widow IW, and Nebula, but at the moment they don't feel like they're pulling their weight in any team I put them in.

Other people have mentioned her needing attention, but I do actually like Emma Frost as she is though. She could maybe be a bit speedier, but I love how her powers work and their concept is diamond hard. 

turbomoose

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Could easily have voted for both but I believe that there are more characters really lacking in power not just their powers but points scored 

there are some characters in 5* who should do vastly more damage but because they were early creations their numbers just don’t match up to Okoye or some more recent additions 

as for nerf, cap, Bishop and kitty are ok to fight unless you have a 5* roster like myself, so I skip 90% of fights against them