R192: Champion Rewards Updates

broll

Vhailorx said:

broll said:

The loss of ISO, HP, and CP is a bummer, but the change is worth it.

That being said it seems likely the SCL rewards are getting ready to revamped.  The difference from this change has the potential to be made up there.  Let's hope it is.

"Worth it"?  Why are you accepting the framing that the one is only possible in combination with the other?  The two changes are only linked because demi linked them. 

Because I believe it's worth it.  If they asked me would you make this trade I'd have said yes.  It's that simple.

Would I have rather got a straight upgrade yeah.  I'd also rather be a millionaire and not have to work, but we have to deal with the realities life throws at us.

Falconfreak

Has this went live yet? I'm sitting on some 2* I could farm.

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

If the players choose to behave like children throwing temper tantrum because they didn't get enough candies, then it's on them to learn to grow up and behave like an adult. 

Source?

ThaRoadWarrior

Falconfreak said:

Has this went live yet? I'm sitting on some 2* I could farm.

Same, lol. I could flip this 2* Widow and champ Jessica Jones, but I want some of those shards and a mighty token first...

DarthDeVo

HoundofShadow said:

Sure, no one is obliged to care about whatever happened to the devs. But, it's called putting yourself in the shoes of other people or looking at things from different points of views. If the players choose to behave like children throwing temper tantrum because they didn't get enough candies, then it's on them to learn to grow up and behave like an adult. If you see the relationship between you and the devs simply as how much free resources they are giving you without requiring extra effort or money vs how much they are taking away, then you will forever be unhappy with any tradeoffs.

The reason why so many think that it's not going to be gamebreaking adding whatever resources along existing features is because you are not the owner or director in charge of MPQ. If you are in charge of making sure that KPIs are met, you won't be saying stuff like these.

I haven't seen the claim by IceIX. But, players will only believe what they want to see. It doesn't matter whether the devs release the data or not because one thing is for sure, players who are against the tradeoffs will argue against the data and will try all means to invalidate them. We already had a few a sagas where players want to win, such as the definition of "logical feeders", "neutral", "expert players" and "couple" etc.

Everytime I see you call players with legitimate criticisms spoiled, entitled children who only want as much free stuff as possible, I keep thinking of a certain Alanis Morrisette song. 

I guess it's pretty easy to justify any and all monetization schemes when, by admission, you never ever spend a single penny on this game. 

Maybe we all should adopt Hound's modus operandi. Not spend any money on the game at all, but preach about how it's a company and not a charity and any and all monetization is justified and appropriate. Game would shut down in six months, but we'd all get to feel better about ourselves, or something. 

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

<Snip> If the players choose to behave like children throwing temper tantrum because they didn't get enough candies, then it's on them to learn to grow up and behave like an adult. If you see the relationship between you and the devs simply as how much free resources they are giving you without requiring extra effort or money vs how much they are taking away, then you will forever be unhappy with any tradeoffs.

The reason why so many think that it's not going to be gamebreaking adding whatever resources along existing features is because you are not the owner or director in charge of MPQ. If you are in charge of making sure that KPIs are met, you won't be saying stuff like these.

Please show me where I have behaved like a child throwing a "temper tantrum"?  Having a different, even critical, opinion is not the same thing as whining like an "entitled" brat (and i would argue that your entire framing is laden with moral baggage that you aren't applying evenly.  Players are wrong to want 'free stuff' from the devs, but apparently it is also out of bounds to comment on the aggressive monetization of mpq, or the more or less predatory structure of some of the microtransactions [most specifically, the bonus heroes odds splash page that straight up misled players for years].)

If we need to have empathy for the devs, the why can't we expect some empathy from them?

Godzillafan67

HoundofShadow said:

[snip]

If the players choose to behave like children throwing temper tantrum because they didn't get enough candies, then it's on them to learn to grow up and behave like an adult.

[snip]

They gave me more ice-cream but simultaneously took my candies. How can they take candy from a baby and not expect a shrill response? And by "shrill" I mean "logically reasoned and fairly dispassionate".

ThaRoadWarrior

Looking more closely at the 3* reward changes - why are Mighty tokens being added on top of a former HP drop at 207 rather than replacing the heroic token at 211 unless it's to reduce the hp earn rate?

I only have 1 4* high enough to be significantly affected by the CP loss there so far, But I estimate that had these changes to the 3* tier been live all along, the cp loss would have cost me about 30 Latest Legends pulls over the life of my play from reduced CP. That actually isn't like a huge number in the grand scheme of things, but it does feel kind of arbitrary.

jp1

DarthDeVo said:

HoundofShadow said:

Sure, no one is obliged to care about whatever happened to the devs. But, it's called putting yourself in the shoes of other people or looking at things from different points of views. If the players choose to behave like children throwing temper tantrum because they didn't get enough candies, then it's on them to learn to grow up and behave like an adult. If you see the relationship between you and the devs simply as how much free resources they are giving you without requiring extra effort or money vs how much they are taking away, then you will forever be unhappy with any tradeoffs.

The reason why so many think that it's not going to be gamebreaking adding whatever resources along existing features is because you are not the owner or director in charge of MPQ. If you are in charge of making sure that KPIs are met, you won't be saying stuff like these.

I haven't seen the claim by IceIX. But, players will only believe what they want to see. It doesn't matter whether the devs release the data or not because one thing is for sure, players who are against the tradeoffs will argue against the data and will try all means to invalidate them. We already had a few a sagas where players want to win, such as the definition of "logical feeders", "neutral", "expert players" and "couple" etc.

Everytime I see you call players with legitimate criticisms spoiled, entitled children who only want as much free stuff as possible, I keep thinking of a certain Alanis Morrisette song. 

I guess it's pretty easy to justify any and all monetization schemes when, by admission, you never ever spend a single penny on this game. 

Maybe we all should adopt Hound's modus operandi. Not spend any money on the game at all, but preach about how it's a company and not a charity and any and all monetization is justified and appropriate. Game would shut down in six months, but we'd all get to feel better about ourselves, or something. 

Fully agree with this. Not just that, but some of us actually spend (when we don’t need to) to show support for certain improvements. 

It’s like your kids calling you entitled for having an opinion about your household while you pay all the bills.

Get off my lawn.

Sidenote: How many thousands do we need to have invested before our opinion should be worth two cents? Just wondering when it will be okay to give some honest feedback.

Side sidenote: Even if you are FTP I believe you are entitled to an opinion, just a little tired of hearing the “players want everything for free” argument. 

Omegased

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

randomhero1090

DarthDeVo said:

Maybe we all should adopt Hound's modus operandi. Not spend any money on the game at all, but preach about how it's a company and not a charity and any and all monetization is justified and appropriate. Game would shut down in six months, but we'd all get to feel better about ourselves, or something. 

Ok, now that's funny

broll

I don't think it's about 'wanting stuff for free'.  That's kind of a silly argument in my opinion.  It is, what it should be, is about maintaining the economy they way they want it to be.  My thought is there are two possible factors here:

1.  The implementation of shards is a multi-staged implementation that isn't finished and while they are taking some resources out here, but adding them in somewhere else.  So now it looks like a subtraction but it will balance out or improve once all is said and done.  It's hard to judge until the full system is out because we have no idea what's coming (which also makes it hard to know when to start judging lol).

2.  They do high level analysis of the entire community and it was deemed that that adding shards vs taking away small amounts of other resources would be a massive improvement for the community at large.  However, for certain players, especially those with largely filled out rosters, that's not the case.  Those players would be a massive minority across the entire community of all players.  Adding these rewards in for newer players it's going to add for them ISO and HP at least that could lead to them advancing quicker than they should according to the devs design.  Also taking away some CP for those newer players would be a good thing, one of the problems IMO with this game is an unwitting player getting them selves into a bad position by getting 5*s too soon.  Mighty tokens allow them to start working on 4*s without spending CP and taking some away cuts down on the likelihood of them getting into that scenario.  This is just one example of how they may be trying to balance the economy.  There are a lot of factors when you look at trying to make a positive change for everyone despite vast numbers of people and different playstyles and rosters.

Therealsmkspy

Omegased said:

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

You do realize that we aren't just players but customers too? I'm  guessing you feel like it's whining when fast food restaurants short ayou an item or get your order wrong.

And love the defense of MTs, as if they are 85% 4 star chances and 15% 3 star chances.

broll

Therealsmkspy said:

Omegased said:

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

You do realize that we aren't just players but customers too? I'm  guessing you feel like it's whining when fast food restaurants short ayou an item or get your order wrong.

And love the defense of MTs, as if they 85% 4 chances and 15% 3 star chances.

Apples to oranges comparison.  You're complaining about your custom order being wrong.  The apples to apples comparison would be complaining that they added or removed an ingredient from your favorite menu item in all restaurants nation wide.  Also still not whining, but it's also something you're not likely to change in a hurry and without massive support.  This change is too good for to ever get massive support enough to change it.  It is what it is.

Vhailorx

Omegased said:

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

Resources like HP and CP can be deployed to get a character of my choosing at a time of my choosing (because I can hoard and binge on specific stores).  Resources like shards are locked to specific characters, and are only good for that 1 use.  Plus, 250 shards for one 5* is an incentive on me to spend HP on the other 250 via HP or whatever other method of shard acquisition they put into the game.

Whether that's a fair trade is up to you.  My argument has always been that it doesn't need to be a trade at all.  We can just have both.

JimboJambo

I've been playing for 2 years now. The amount of effort to accumulate HP to roster new characters in the first year and a half was huge and I play a lot. I have seen numerous new players come into our casual alliance and then give up because it takes too long to get any good characters.

The reduction in HP for 2 and 3 star characters is an unnecessary extra hit for new players who desperately need all the HP they can get.

The general advice on this forum is (quite rightly) not to open tokens until you have the HP to roster characters. So as a new player you will have a whole bunch of shards and new 3-4 star tokens that you can stare at every day until you finally get enough HP to buy a new slot. Is this fun? Is this a way to encourage new players into the game?

JHawkInc

Omegased said:

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

Seriously. There was some discussion at some point. But things have gone so far off the rails, both sides sound more than a little crazy at this point.

The fact is they are trying to give us several things we want, and are trying to balance that within the game economy in a way that will have the least negative impact. And I think that's a good thing. I think the trade-off is worth it, and I hope others feel the same way in the long run, even if they don't right now. Maybe the problems of this particular update can be addressed in future updates down the line.

But a lot of the shouting in this thread has gone beyond the realm of useful discussion. It's starting to slip into insults and name-calling that have little to do with the update to begin with.

DAZ0273

Omegased said:

I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

 

Of all the observations made, this is not one of the ones I would flag up as "misunderstood". For example, I haven't seen anybody say "Now that my CP supply is being cut I will struggle to to obtain costumes for my characters, this makes me sad. Also, I think you used to be able to get sandwiches with HP, right? Another thing taken from us."

Vhailorx

Therealsmkspy said:

Omegased said:

You are all whinging so much.
I think something you're all forgetting is that we use the in game currencies for getting characters.

We're now getting specific characters, and colorless covers, and mighty tokens. Honestly, it's a fair trade

You do realize that we aren't just players but customers too? I'm  guessing you feel like it's whining when fast food restaurants short ayou an item or get your order wrong.

And love the defense of MTs, as if they are 85% 4 star chances and 15% 3 star chances.

I think an even better analogy is this:. Imagine McDonalds just re-released the mcrib, but we also discovered that McDonalds added pink slime back into their food products at the same time.  Assuming we do (inexplicably) like mcribs, can we also complain about the use of pink slime?

(Disclaimer: this post assumes there is no pink slime in McDonalds food.  I cannot actually assert this fact as true.)

ThaRoadWarrior

I mean it's possible that Gwen Prix will become a regular fixture and Support Circuit will come back, and inject some stimulus into the economy that has been taken away by these changes. Of course those would come with an increased expectation of grind-to-earn as well, rather than earn-by-existing in the case of older rewards that got load leveled down.

I was kind of expecting a general shifting to the left on all tokens given out when the Mighty Token was announced: all standards become Elites, all Heroics become Might Tokens at higher SCLs. That could still happen too I suppose.