R192: Champion Rewards Updates

Vhailorx

shadow2999 said:

Again KGB its not unfair.  I know you think it would be, but you are indeed wrong in that.  What is unfair is when a company changes the rules, and uses deceptive language in making said change.  And the fact is, giving full retroactive rewards would benefit EVERYONE to one extent or another.  Why that seems unsettling to you is surprising to me.  But again, the real focus should be the total lack of information from the devs since this blew up....

At the risk of getting meta, I will point out that both shadow and KGB can be right.  "Fair" is not an immediately, and objectively identifiable concept here.

KGB is focused on a strict definition of fair that focuses on exact parity of quantifiable measures (i.e. a level X 4* champ for you should be exactly the same as a Level X 4z champ for me).

Shadow is emphasizing something more focused on equity, where the actual tally book on each side of a comparison don't need to match perfectly if the subjective interests of both parties have been respected in similar ways.

I don't think there is a 'right' answer here, it's a question of values and cost/benefit analysis. I am personally on the side of equity rather than parity for MPQ purposes.  But if we just keep yelling "fairness!" at each other while meaning different things, we will never get anywhere.

whitecat31

KGB said:

@Whitecat:

1) Someone suggested I wasn't enough of a vet to have 'suffered enough' in the early days before cover saves and other things. That response was to them saying that things that happened long ago have nothing to do with what's going on now and what's fair and what's not fair now. It has no relevance other than to that comment directed at me about how much I suffered in playing the game a long time ago.

2) Actually, what you should have gotten (and what many read) was a total of 7 covers. As 1 cover and 3000 shards. The extra 500 shards was meant to be a veteran bonus for passing L300, 320 etc. In other words veteran rosters were to get a little extra which I thought was a nice gesture. No one (including myself) thought it meant you were getting 500 total instead of 2500 + a bonus 500.

3) The problem is that it IS double dipping. You already got the rewards at those levels. They totalled 6 LT's and 60 CP. Then if you get more rewards for passing those same levels you are in fact double dipping because you are being rewarded twice for passing the same level. The fact D3 did it in the past doesn't make it not double dipping.

Also, threads here are filled with tales of players cracking massive hordes of tokens at all levels just before this went live. Now why do you suppose they did that? Be honest, it was to pass as many double dip points as possible to maximize as many extra rewards as possible in there 2,3 and & 4* characters. It's normal human nature. So at least acknowledge it for what it is, a max reward grab.

4) OK, so what's your proposal? Just make the 5* players whole with double rewards? As I said and answered BuzzedLightBeer, what's your answer to those players? Must D3 make it rain rewards across tiers otherwise why do those players have to miss out when according to vets, you get to double dip whenever D3 makes a change to the reward structure (that's all 5* feeders are, a change to the reward structure at a few specific points). It seems they do everything (make it rain) or do nothing (no one gets anything more). At least my suggestion while being very hard to do let each player decide what they wanted changed.

KGB

1. OK. Fair enough, I guess. I found your response to that distracting and not on point.
2. Yes. I think you need to clarify that point, then, because your arguments seem to be contrary to that, in so many ways. Where we were supposed to get 6 five star covers.  We were given 2.  Not 6. Or 6 +1 which would be nice. 
3. Again this is not Double dipping, it was earned. You might want to look at my Avatar picture. You can also go to this
link. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/749081#Comment_749081
You can also read this mini announcement.
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/68963/updates-to-4-star-champion-rewards-11-17-17#latest
This is done specifically, so people don't stop leveling their 4 star characters. 
This also was done so characters would BUY roster slots for their dupes. There are people out there who have had Rogue their bonus hero since she came out, and have been only collecting her, in expectation that it would yield six 5 Star Gambit covers for each fully championed level 370 Rogue 4 star.  I have great empathy for these people. 

4. My initial proposal would have been the developers keep their promise.  Not say. Oh we changed to a shard system, so you don't get covers.  None of us were initially looking for it to rain covers or shards. We just wanted that 4 star cover rewards as promised.  
Most of us are not looking for free Mighty Tokens.  We were not demanding 3 star shards or 4 star shards, although that would have been very nice, and most likely fair based on past precedents.  That omission strategically hurts the upcoming players much more than the veterans. It is clearly a money grab, and not something beneficial.  It widens the gap between the casual player and the committed player. We are not stupid, and can see the math with this. 

Too be honest, if they had done just the 5 star covers, as veterans we would have figured out how to navigate the 3 star and 4 shard issues and possibly had even paid into the system to balance things out.  The reason why, is it does not take 2 years or more to Max level a 3 star, like it does a 4 star, without busting a giant legendary token hoard.

I am going to use "we" here.  But , I do not represent all players. 

They did not give the 5 star covers as promised.  The player base is livid and angry. I doubt we would just be appeased with here is your 5 star covers as promised, now shut up and pay. "This too shall pass"
We were betrayed. We have canceled our VIPs. Some have changed their reviews down. Many no longer recommend this game to others. We have stopped buying those specials. Some have gone to the various payment platforms and demanded refunds based on fraud, and are willing to risk their accounts to make that point.  We have also stopped large chunks of money from coming in, with the stoppage of buy groups.  This is where 20 people would get together and all buy at least one Stark so everybody in the group would get at least 140 command points. These would give the game 2000 dollars or more in chunks.  There were some days, where people would spend thousands of dollars.  Especially, during sales.
No more.  No more.  No More. 
 

So now we want those 5 star covers as promised and more.  I am not just talking about an apology, which we want.
We want those missed 3 star and 4 star shards. We want them for our friends we introduced to this game so they can catch up and play with us faster and so we don't feel like we lied to them.  By the way KGB this would benefit your play style. 
We want a return of bonus heroes. I am sure some of us could easily take a reduction in shards "earned" from opened tokens to do it. In fact I would encourage it, if it is better mathematically and less cumbersome that the current system that looks designed to cause overage. If those pop ups go away that would be great also.
We want an open dialogue with a development team that currently gives us the impression that we are a cow with no feelings that can easily be milked. They don't give us the impression that they understand the veterans and the community that has kept players playing a game this long. We want to help them understand us, and to work with us. 

Razuhlui

KGB said:

Razuhlui said:

These are not the same characters? Why does my Magik 370 not gain the same reward as My CapAmerica Worthy 370 you ask?
You're comparing your apples with other's pears?
What brings us back to the statement :

How can anybody have Ton of extra resources, you can't get, for doing the exact same thing?. That would be truly unfair.
Like others mentioned, you, I and all players are not  doing the exact same thing. Otherwise it would be an homogeneously playerbase, where everybody has the same roster, the same speed in pve, the same points. Everybody would be same placement.

I think your misunderstanding what I am writing. So let me put it another way.

Say we both start a 3 day PvE event. Part of the day 2 progression is 8 cp (CL7). You wake up at 6 am and do your clears and in the process get 8 cp. At 10 am D3 suddenly announces the 8 cp reward is going to be replaced by a 4* cover. Then they award everyone who already passed the 8 cp point a 4* cover in addition to the 8 cp they already got.  Now I play at noon and only the the 4* cover. Am I wrong is asking why they are getting the 8 cp AND the 4* cover or why I am also not getting the 8 cp? It's progression.

But that's not how it goes, they won't change reward mid events. 
Yeah you're wrong cause. The announcement would be before to clarify for everybody that after the event ends everybody reached the 8 Cp would rewarded an additional 4*. If you're not reaching that point you did not play to that reward. 

Your complain goes , you didn't receive the reward the first time cause you didn't play, but in the new event you reached it and now you're complaining that you didn't get your reward from the first event.

bahamut685

The RIGHT way to handle this change would have been to be less greedy. Rather than replacing half of the relevant rewards with pieces of the other already present rewards, the shards should have been added as ADDITIONAL rewards, so that we still got the same thing, but got the addictive/gambling urge to speed up covers buy finishing with shards. ex. Level 219: instead of taking away the HP or CP, give the HP or CP AND the shards.

And retroactive reward handling (I'm specifically referring to shards, not tokens) was absolutely abysmal; there was no reason but greed to not award proper secondary shards for 3*s... And you guys missed the mark on greed there, since having half of the shards for a 4* would have encouraged a bunch of people to buy shards to finish those very slow cover acquisitions... Instead, it looks like your main goal was to get half of the player base to cut the purse strings.

Claiming "we couldn't give you the same amount of covers without charging 10s of thousands of HP, and thousands of CP across your roster" is NOT reasonable or realistic. In point of fact, countless studies have shown that making even the slightest efforts to make your customers happy/feel appreciated/valued leads to them buying more of your product. Here, the company instead told their consumers that the company felt that they had been TOO generous, and needed to cut a very large percentage of previous rewards. -hundreds of HP per ~100 4* and 40ish 3*, and dozens of CP from each 3* and over 60 CP per 4* is COLOSSAL.

ThaRoadWarrior

Razuhlui said:

KGB said:

Say we both start a 3 day PvE event. Part of the day 2 progression is 8 cp (CL7). You wake up at 6 am and do your clears and in the process get 8 cp. At 10 am D3 suddenly announces the 8 cp reward is going to be replaced by a 4* cover. Then they award everyone who already passed the 8 cp point a 4* cover in addition to the 8 cp they already got.  Now I play at noon and only the the 4* cover. Am I wrong is asking why they are getting the 8 cp AND the 4* cover or why I am also not getting the 8 cp? It's progression.

But that's not how it goes, they won't change reward mid events. 

The "double dipping" is more like how subsequent event runs will have fewer rewards than they did at launch. See: Sakaar Arena run 1 + 2
Places of Power run 1 + 2
etc

If you were there for the first run, you had a better shot than people who were there for a re-run.

AXP_isme

Makes me nostalgic for the first run of galactus. Not everything was better first time around. 

Just sayin 😂

BrutusTheCat

So the main "Benefit" of switching to shards as champ rewards was that "If you are a little tight on roster slots, you can save them for later" about a direct quote from IceX's post, but the first feeder reward is still a cover not shards. So by the time you have enough shards for a cover you've either already lost one cover or you don't need to save the shards. 

Look I'd be more ok with this change if you did remove covers completely and replaced the first cover with the shard equivalent. 

Daredevil217

BrutusTheCat said:

So the main "Benefit" of switching to shards as champ rewards was that "If you are a little tight on roster slots, you can save them for later" about a direct quote from IceX's post, but the first feeder reward is still a cover not shards. So by the time you have enough shards for a cover you've either already lost one cover or you don't need to save the shards. 

Look I'd be more ok with this change if you did remove covers completely and replaced the first cover with the shard equivalent. 

As someone with everyone rostered (privilege), I never thought of that. Really good point!

ThaRoadWarrior

I’ve been thinking a bit about it, and it does kind of lower the threshold to complete a 5* youre also chasing directly. Unclear exactly how meaningful that is going to be in practice compared to the resource loss.

spatenfloot

Well, if they aren't going to do anything with supports, maybe they can replace the red iso with our missing HP and CP.

namanjohnson101

They balanced the rewards table by taking away rewards from the top end players that the masses wouldn’t reach often and increasing (or colorlessing) rewards that the masses would more easily reach.  

Except...why is that necessary?  Instead of removing rewards just put them at the end of the reward chain.  Shift the 4* cp to the last levels between 360 and 370.  That way the whales are made whole, and the masses who are benefitting from colorless covers won’t ever see those rewards earned back without spending. get-9apps.com get-cartoonhd.com

DAZ0273

namanjohnson101 said:

They balanced the rewards table by taking away rewards from the top end players that the masses wouldn’t reach often and increasing (or colorlessing) rewards that the masses would more easily reach.  

Except...why is that necessary?  Instead of removing rewards just put them at the end of the reward chain.  Shift the 4* cp to the last levels between 360 and 370.  That way the whales are made whole, and the masses who are benefitting from colorless covers won’t ever see those rewards earned back without spending.

They took away from all tiers, not just those further advanced. We lost bonus heroes AND HP/CP and it isn't a great tradeoff but it is what it is and I don't expect any rollbacks.

Jacklag

Explain to me how is it possible that 3* Thanos primary feed isn't Nebula? 

And, I know it's a minor gripe, but it would be cuter if Star*Lord and Gamora fed each other, the way 3* Gambit feeds Rogue and Rogue feeds 5* Gambit.