R192: Champion Rewards Updates

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  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,238 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    Still can’t understand why you concern yourself with other folks compensation. It makes no sense.

    Because it affects me when they get stuff I don't. Getting an extra 6 LTS and 60 CP's per max champed 4* is a TON of extra resources I can't get. There are players who will get that for every new feeder which means they got hundreds more CP and 50+ more LT's that I get for doing the exact same thing! That's not fair.

    It's especially relevant as I move into late 4* land and max champ all my 4* in the next year or so. Those lost resources work out to roughly 80+ more 4* covers than I get. That's not nothing.

    KGB
  • BagPuss
    BagPuss Posts: 73 Match Maker
    jp1 said:
    Still can’t understand why you concern yourself with other folks compensation. It makes no sense.

    Because people take joy in the misery of others, It's current human nature. Realistically the status quo isn't going to change due to length of time +/or spend. Instead of protesting with each other we should all be directing our issues with the developers and let them answer the problems. 

    Not read the entire thread, I'm only interested in one or two things. 

    Devs - why did you change the retroactive rewards format?

    Does your data show this would greatly change the game dynamics to the detriment of players or/(+) is this a business decision because it affects revenue models?

    Straight answer would be appreciated, got no problems if its the latter. Just need to know. 
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2019
    whitecat31 said:
    I would also like to point out the 3 star feeder math is flawed in that. It is better, in some cases to now sell your three star after the first Reward of 4 star at level 183. which takes 30 covers. You will earn a legendary token 100 hero points and 2 command points along that journey.

    50 covers later a 4 star is earned as well as 100 hero points and now only 6 command points and no legendary token. 
    They took away the 7 command points and 150 hero points to make the journey worth it.  (Also forced color scheme made it necessary before).
    If somebody is specifically trying to level a particular 4 star with a 3 star feeder. It might be more advantageous to now sell it at level 183. 
    Need to see how much iso you get back at 183 (closest I have is 181 showing 28,000iso and 75hp). Farming 3* used to cost ~22,000iso but flipping it early will definitely increase the loss. If post iso, then it doesn’t really matter.

    it’s roughly 77,000 less iso and 425 less hp from selling (based on level 181), not to factor in the skipped rewards of 184-266 (roughly 46,000 iso and 850hp). The only thing you gain is the opportunity loss of selling those 82 covers for 41,000 iso. May be optimal to flip early but the iso loss will increase. 

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    jp1 said:
    Still can’t understand why you concern yourself with other folks compensation. It makes no sense.

    Because it affects me when they get stuff I don't. Getting an extra 6 LTS and 60 CP's per max champed 4* is a TON of extra resources I can't get. There are players who will get that for every new feeder which means they got hundreds more CP and 50+ more LT's that I get for doing the exact same thing! That's not fair.

    It's especially relevant as I move into late 4* land and max champ all my 4* in the next year or so. Those lost resources work out to roughly 80+ more 4* covers than I get. That's not nothing.

    KGB
    It affects you how exactly? Just because you think it isn’t fair? 

    Give an example of how your enjoyment of the game or your personal progress will be impeded because of someone getting the retroactive rewards they earned...if you don’t mind.

    Banks give rich folks even more money while they charge everyone else fees. Try getting them to change that business model because you think it isn’t fair. They could hand it all out evenly despite consumer contribution. I think we have a name for that though.
  • BuzzedLightbeer
    BuzzedLightbeer Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    KGB said:
    jp1 said:
    Still can’t understand why you concern yourself with other folks compensation. It makes no sense.

    Because it affects me when they get stuff I don't. Getting an extra 6 LTS and 60 CP's per max champed 4* is a TON of extra resources I can't get. There are players who will get that for every new feeder which means they got hundreds more CP and 50+ more LT's that I get for doing the exact same thing! That's not fair.

    It's especially relevant as I move into late 4* land and max champ all my 4* in the next year or so. Those lost resources work out to roughly 80+ more 4* covers than I get. That's not nothing.

    KGB

    So I’ve seen several of your posts in this thread, and can appreciate your position.  I’m asking this, however, not to be facetious, but as a legitimate question.  From the things you have stated, it seems that you feel your position is purely based on what’s fair and nothing else.  Your quote here refers to you as a player “doing the exact same thing” in-game as another player, yet not receiving equal compensation.  With the new changes, there are players that have done the exact same thing as others are yet to do, but will not have been rewarded equally based upon the new structure (the players moving toward the second “shard threshold” for a 4* character will receive more compensation than a player that has already passed said threshold for instance, and on and on).  Are you also concerned with the fairness in this?  

    Truly not trying to argue with you, just trying to illustrate some of the frustration from the other side as well and possibly offer another perspective.  The end result for all seems to be that this just doesn’t seem to have been a fully thought out plan, or at least not one that aimed to balance fairness for all as closely as they could.  I agree that it affects other tiers as well, not just the 5* tier.  
  • buddy2034
    buddy2034 Posts: 29 Just Dropped In
    I think this is all great, and maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I was really hopeful Bishop would get a feeder to help the have-nots (myself included). He's still everywhere and not having him is detrimental as I feel like I'm targeted over tgose with him all the time. BOP just exemplifies this. Still - thanks for the updates. 
  • marshall
    marshall Posts: 179 Tile Toppler
    @KGB

    If you started later you benefitted from increased rewards, saved covers, better, more powerful 4*s, more feeders for transitions, and so many other things. For someone in 5* land those LLs and CP don't really amount to life changing benefits.

    Example: it took me 2 years to fully cover Doc Ock, still trying with Star Lord despite being a 1666 player
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    Does anyone know if this is completely rolled out yet? I received a handful of rewards yesterday that all seemed to be tied to 4* feeder updates, but have not received any of the retroactive rewards for my 3*s or 2*s — these are coming, correct?
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    mega ghost said:
    Does anyone know if this is completely rolled out yet? I received a handful of rewards yesterday that all seemed to be tied to 4* feeder updates, but have not received any of the retroactive rewards for my 3*s or 2*s — these are coming, correct?
    no.  This is it but they are to be working on it 
  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2019
    KGB said:
    <snip out irrelevant>
    1. So what about it? The game was what it was then in the same manner as I once could smoke indoors at my job, drink and drive, spank my kids and many other things no longer allowed. In other words, things change and talking about the old times isn't relevant.

    <Snip>
    2. Whitecat,  you were supposed to get 100 extra shards per 20 levels on a 5*. That's what ICEIX post refers to when he says 100 shards for each place you would have received a 5* cover. That's why a max champ gets 500 shards. Those 500 are the 5 bonus points.

    <snipped out misrepresentation of what is bothering veterans. >


    3. So when you want to double dip on the new shards. 
    <snipped out information that ignores precedent by game developers>


    4. Hence I suggested a fair compromise where players could request reward swaps they wanted but would have to give back what they had already earned at that particular level. It's obviously going to be a nightmare, never said it wasn't. But it would be fair and that's probably the best D3 can do.

    KGB
    I snipped out a lot of your post. I dont think it is constructively addressable.
    1.  Who reminisces about the good old days about drinking and driving and other societal destructive habits in a thread like this? I don't see this as constructive toward your points.
    2. No. I was supposed to get the equivalent of 6 covers. Not 2 based on historical precedents. This is what is bothering many of the veterans. We clearly know what ICEx said.
    3.it is not double dipping. It is retroactive rewards, given because otherwise if a character is not a feeder, it is punitive to champ it due to what happens when it finally become a feeder. 
    4. I already pointed out your compensation system would cost the company too much money, be near impossible to do, and ruin customer service for everything else in an earlier response.
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    mega ghost said:
    Does anyone know if this is completely rolled out yet? I received a handful of rewards yesterday that all seemed to be tied to 4* feeder updates, but have not received any of the retroactive rewards for my 3*s or 2*s — these are coming, correct?
    no.  This is it but they are to be working on it 
    To clarify, does this mean "No, this is not completely rolled out yet and they are working on it" or "No, those retroactive rewards are not coming, but they they're taking our feedback under advisement?"
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    mega ghost said:
    The rockett said:
    mega ghost said:
    Does anyone know if this is completely rolled out yet? I received a handful of rewards yesterday that all seemed to be tied to 4* feeder updates, but have not received any of the retroactive rewards for my 3*s or 2*s — these are coming, correct?
    no.  This is it but they are to be working on it 
    To clarify, does this mean "No, this is not completely rolled out yet and they are working on it" or "No, those retroactive rewards are not coming, but they they're taking our feedback under advisement?"
    The latter. We got what they set out to give, and then everybody blew up, and now it is being taken under advisement.
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    mega ghost said:
    The rockett said:
    mega ghost said:
    Does anyone know if this is completely rolled out yet? I received a handful of rewards yesterday that all seemed to be tied to 4* feeder updates, but have not received any of the retroactive rewards for my 3*s or 2*s — these are coming, correct?
    no.  This is it but they are to be working on it 
    To clarify, does this mean "No, this is not completely rolled out yet and they are working on it" or "No, those retroactive rewards are not coming, but they they're taking our feedback under advisement?"
    The latter. We got what they set out to give, and then everybody blew up, and now it is being taken under advisement.
    Thanks, and bummer. Have they acknowledged any issues in delivering these rewards? Because I got some 5* covers, but in the announcement post IceIX specifically mentioned retroactive rewards for 2* champs (and imagine 3* champs as well?) and I didn't get any of those, not even shards. IceIX said:

    • You’ve got a level 94 just championed Wolverine (Astonishing X-Men). Congratulations on the Champion! You haven’t started to receive the Champion rewards yet, so you’ve got all the (now changed) rewards ahead of you. 

    • Black Widow (Original) just hit level 108 prior to this change. You got a cover for Black Widow (Grey Suit) already, so you won’t receive that reward again. However, at 107 there are 100 Shards available with the update. You’ll receive these 100 Shard when the update goes through.

    • Your Bullseye (Dark Avengers) is level 120. You received a Bullseye (Classic) Black cover at level 115 before the change. You would have received 100 Bullseye (Classic) Shards at 119 with the change. So you will receive these Shards when the update happens to ensure you can continue progress to the next Bullseye (Classic) cover.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2019
    The way it appears to have worked was it only gave shards that were part of the current milestone you were working towards, and nothing earlier. So if you were between 107 and 114, you’d have gotten 100 shards. If you were at 119-126, you’d have gotten 100 shards towards that 127 reward but nothing earlier than that. At 127-144 you got nothing. Same at the 3 and 4 tiers for existing feeders. No tokens were given out. also none of the secondary shards added to the 3* characters seem to have gone out.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,238 Chairperson of the Boards
    @jp1: Give an example of how your enjoyment of the game or your personal progress will be impeded because of someone getting the retroactive rewards they earned...if you don’t mind.

    Many years ago when SCL first went live there was a bug where players with multiple devices could log in multiple times and receive hundreds of thousands  (possible millions?) of free extra ISO. There was a similar uproar about this. D3 did nothing to roll back the ill gotten ISO. The message was sort, you'll get there eventually and so what if they champ a few more characters earlier than you cause of all that extra ISO.

    So what does that have to do with your question on my progress/enjoyment?  Well obviously if I get 1 set of rewards for a L370 and someone else gets something more they can potentially beat me out of future placement in PvE/PvP and impact my future rewards. Small chance, yes. But my question back to you is, what do you have against me (and others) sharing in the same reward (ie when we both have a L370, we have both earned the same champ level rewards). How does that affect your enjoyment/progress and why would you want to deny me the same rewards?

    @DarthDarthDeVo: The first year or so I barely played the game. Just logged in and did a prologue match and got the resupply award. So while my resupply day says 1800ish the truth is I've only been 'playing' about as long as you have. I didn't even join an alliance until Civil War was first run (which was after my 2nd year of playing). So yeah, my roster progress looks slow because of that. But the last 3 1/2 years I've been a very regular player (finish T20 and sometimes T10 in CL7 PvE and 900 in PvP) in a non-competitive alliance. Spent a total of $120 dollars on the game (VIP this entire year for the costumes).

    So the question becomes then are players who spend more (play 2 win) or played longer (vets) or played harder supposed to benefit more (more than the PvE/PvP placement they already get)? If D3 comes out and states this, then hey, I'll accept it since it's their game. But if that is not an official statement then I don't see why I'm out of line for asking for the same rewards for the the same thing (ie my L370 gets what your L370 gets) regardless of when you/I started or how much we spent.

    @BuzzedLightBeer: Yes, if you re-read my statement I said that players should be getting all the 2* and 3* champ reward changes too. That you should be able to petition for those reward changes just like you can petition for a 4* reward changes (ie at L211 the 3* reward is now a mighty token and everyone should be able to get that token by exchanging it for what they did get there (50 hp I think)). Or if that's too much customer service effort I suggested D3 has to 'make it rain' and give out double dips on every reward change for 2*, 3* and 4*. What they should not do is just do something for the 4* shard changes that become 5* (ie  not just 5* feeders) because that's the most unfair thing of all to do.

    1) Someone suggested I wasn't enough of a vet to have 'suffered enough' in the early days before cover saves and other things. That response was to them saying that things that happened long ago have nothing to do with what's going on now and what's fair and what's not fair now. It has no relevance other than to that comment directed at me about how much I suffered in playing the game a long time ago.
    2) Actually, what you should have gotten (and what many read) was a total of 7 covers. As 1 cover and 3000 shards. The extra 500 shards was meant to be a veteran bonus for passing L300, 320 etc. In other words veteran rosters were to get a little extra which I thought was a nice gesture. No one (including myself) thought it meant you were getting 500 total instead of 2500 + a bonus 500.
    3) The problem is that it IS double dipping. You already got the rewards at those levels. They totalled 6 LT's and 60 CP. Then if you get more rewards for passing those same levels you are in fact double dipping because you are being rewarded twice for passing the same level. The fact D3 did it in the past doesn't make it not double dipping.
    Also, threads here are filled with tales of players cracking massive hordes of tokens at all levels just before this went live. Now why do you suppose they did that? Be honest, it was to pass as many double dip points as possible to maximize as many extra rewards as possible in there 2,3 and & 4* characters. It's normal human nature. So at least acknowledge it for what it is, a max reward grab.
    4) OK, so what's your proposal? Just make the 5* players whole with double rewards? As I said and answered BuzzedLightBeer, what's your answer to those players? Must D3 make it rain rewards across tiers otherwise why do those players have to miss out when according to vets, you get to double dip whenever D3 makes a change to the reward structure (that's all 5* feeders are, a change to the reward structure at a few specific points). It seems they do everything (make it rain) or do nothing (no one gets anything more). At least my suggestion while being very hard to do let each player decide what they wanted changed.

    KGB

  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don’t expect full shards to be retroactive rewards since colourless covers are clearly better than specific covers. However, for the majority of players who are still working towards their 5* rosters, these 100 shards are nowhere as useful as colour specific colours. Instead of 100 shards, they should have just awarded the old specific coloured covers. 

    The vets who already have these 5* championed don’t benefit at all from colourless covers. Those extra shard bonus are meaningless to them. It’s a case of mismatched rewards. 

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