Nerf Bishop

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  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    BigSoftieFF said:
    I would love a mode to play around in for many reasons. Maybe I could find  a decent pairing for 5* Marvel.
    I can help you out.  Banner and Wasp work great with her.  Call them TTCT
    The Trash Can Three. 
  • CT1888
    CT1888 Posts: 1,201 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    But you won’t beat a 5* team bringing an all-4* team to the fight. 
    Sorry if its a bit out of context, but that's not true, it just depends a bit on having them at a decent level when boosted. Off season I was running teams like Carol, Riri and Miles vs full 5* teams (but I was still avoiding Bishop teams). Added bonus is you run below 5* MMR so you don't get hit by 5* teams until you climb high enough or break out the 5*s of your own.
    But Bishop/Gritty. Yeah, avoid that. 
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    CT1888 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    But you won’t beat a 5* team bringing an all-4* team to the fight. 
    Sorry if its a bit out of context, but that's not true, it just depends a bit on having them at a decent level when boosted. Off season I was running teams like Carol, Riri and Miles vs full 5* teams (but I was still avoiding Bishop teams). Added bonus is you run below 5* MMR so you don't get hit by 5* teams until you climb high enough or break out the 5*s of your own.
    But Bishop/Gritty. Yeah, avoid that. 
    Back when I could be bothered to do more than a speed run to 575/900/1200 or whatever my target is, I often used to delight in running 5/4* and boosted 4/4* teams in regular PvP and yes they are fully capable of beating 5* teams (maybe not Gritty very reliably) and as you say it has the side benefit of hiding from 5* MMR.

    The problem with running them against Bishop is a decently levelled boosted 4* still triggers  him with match damage.  But perhaps I need to consider running my duplicate 27x Clagger & Medusa rather than the maxed versions.....

    On the plus side, very occasionally there's a boosted 4* that synergises so well with Okoye such as Medusa you can wipe Bishop out on turn two if you can match a couple of team ups tiles and/or boost ap.

    For Sim, I've been trying to come up with 4*and 5/4/4 teams to counter Bishop but as mentioned previously in this thread, the problem is that if you manage to neutralise him (I.e. with Surfer) you still need to take out either Gritty or Okoye/Strange.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,782 Chairperson of the Boards
    I used an all 4* team in Shield Sim to beat Gritty Bishop.

    I havent tried it again (yet) but i was really happy with the results.

    No, i didnt use a boost either.

    Im keeping this gem in my pocket for now.

    Yes, i still think Bishop is broken.
    I find no logic in the idea of a lower tier character totally upsetting the tier above him, when the tier above him is supposed to be the end game.  Sure, you can play around it and win at times.  But it shouldnt be so hard, and so obviously good, too.

    Itd be one thing if it was a trick you come up with... A combo that worked if certain AP was grabbed, or if powers were used in a certain way.  But its not.  Its literally the easiest thing to play.  Even 5* Thor meta play requires you to play with half health.  This guy just demands a health pack to give you what you could almost call an auto-win.

    If other characters could do that, i think we wouldnt talk about it as much.  But since one dude can do so much with little to no effort, nearly guaranteeing a win... I think thats the issue.
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    BigSoftieFF said:
    I would love a mode to play around in for many reasons. Maybe I could find  a decent pairing for 5* Marvel.
    Black Cat + Vulture is solid with Marvel for fun PvE events
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,440 Chairperson of the Boards
    I just tested Archangel’s Aerial Superiority against a Bishop/JJ team in the torch PvP (via a team up, my AA isn’t competitive), and I can confirm that it does indeed shut down all AP gain on that color. As I suspected, I’d happily eat that retal damage from bishop as long as it didn’t end up with a stun. Too bad those CDs are a delightful snack on grishop matches, but I guess take that for what it’s worth those of you who can run AA.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,957 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bowgentle said:
    OJSP said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I just tested Archangel’s Aerial Superiority against a Bishop/JJ team in the torch PvP (via a team up, my AA isn’t competitive), and I can confirm that it does indeed shut down all AP gain on that color. As I suspected, I’d happily eat that retal damage from bishop as long as it didn’t end up with a stun. Too bad those CDs are a delightful snack on grishop matches, but I guess take that for what it’s worth those of you who can run AA.
    And how do we get 7 Black APs without triggering Bishop's passive?
    Magic.
    Just like all the other "counters".
    Well Magik gives red AP. But she IS a 4*, so there’s that. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,440 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    If you read closer, you'll see I did it with a teamup; I was using GE Doom with Chavez, as is my wont these days in pick-2 pvp events. The enemy team was Bishop/JJ, which is far less offensively dangerous than Grtitshop in simulator (for me), because you aren't compelled to chase match-4s to clear the strikes out.  I was just curious mostly to verify that he would shut down AP that wasn't directly coming from a match, because Rogue doesn't work like that. I've never bothered to test it before with Aerial Supriority.

    I did just go back in and dig around until i could queue up a Bishessica team again to actually try using Archangel. This one had a 311 Bishop, 459 JJ, and a loaner torch. Keep in mind my AA is only 285 1/2/1, but with a 450 GE Doom skimming any incidental black, I had 7 black by turn 2 and locked bishop's ap gain down with only Doom eating the stun. Unfortunately my AA is trash tier, and it stopped there. It's not the best test because Archangel at champ would also be triggering that retaliation on a "real" team. 

    I have a better Lumbercap, 2/4/4 leveled to 405, so he's triggering Bishop on matches, and queued up that same team to try again with GE Doom. I stacked +2 to purple and was able to get similar results - match some purple, trigger bishop, get Doom stunned, block the AI from using blue anymore, and then the dry board took over and Bishop/JJ cleaned house.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,440 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm also not trying to pretend like I cracked the case or anything, i'm just trying to figure out what I can do to get past these teams some kind of way. I"m seeing them, and struggling with them, and I feel like Bishop is way OP as well.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,440 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    In my experiences so far, SOMEbody is getting stunned, but if there’s a way to shut the stun down beyond that to avoid a total stunlock it would help my matches. 

    For my roster, bringing a 4/5 combo still seems to give me better results since I have most of the interesting 4s at decent levels. I haven’t tried playing down with Dazzler yet, because most of the 5s I have that start with a special out (gambit, Danver5) are under leveled to be useful for counter-stunning. 

    *edit - i tested my 280 Dazzler with my 255 Danver5, and even like that Dazzler only tanks Black. her Black/Green/Red color spread is just way too common for her to meaningfully play up.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    What worked was bringing a 479 Creepsicle because matching blue didn't trigger Bishop.
    I still wouldn't call that reliable, though.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    Daredevil217 said:
    You know this is another reason why I think a “Danger Room” type mode would be awesome (and I know this has been asked for countless times in the past). 

    I’d personally love to fight some low-level, partially covered Kitty teams that 4* players seem to be struggling with. First of all, it’d be fun. Second, I could help design counter teams out of the 80+ 4* characters that the tier has to offer. Then, after extensive testing, maybe we could know which counters are worth chasing (maybe there’s an effective Thanos or Dazzler team out there?) and what counters just don’t work without lot of luck. While I have lots of ideas that I truly think could work, I have no way to test it out. And dilution being what it is. It has to suck for a 4* player to chase and invest, only for the character to be ineffective in what they were designed to do. 

    Similarly, Hound, or any other 4* player, could bring Clagger, Gamora, and X-23 to fight the teams we see and see how well it works out. Or, they could experience what it is like for a 5* team to fight a Bishop-fueled 5* team. 

    I truly believe that Bishop should be nerfed, but if the developers refuse to view him as a problem, then having a Danger Room where we could ALL try and come up with the best in-game solution possible, would be pretty awesome (and again, fun!). 
    I actually made a thread asking for a Danger Room after May's Cinema Showdown event: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/78224/danger-room

    I proposed only allowing the player to use characters on their roster, because if players could use every character in the game, even those they don't have, I can see that curbing the desire to chase newly released characters.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    blankcanvas said:
    All

    If I might be allowed to chime in.

    I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.

    I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.

    I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.

    The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.

    Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated! 
    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    tiomono said:
    blankcanvas said:
    All

    If I might be allowed to chime in.

    I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.

    I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.

    I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.

    The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.

    Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated! 
    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    Agreed, I’d like to hear those as well.
  • Zeofar
    Zeofar Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
    edited September 2019
    tiomono said:
    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    Iceman 5, Doctor Octopus 5, Silver Surfer, Gamora 4, Iceman 4, Spider-Gwen, Vulture
    Let me guess: doesn't count because I don't have him, doesn't count because I refuse to use them x2 (also how dare you suggest a 5-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), stuns don't count because they don't kill Bishop on turn 1 x3 (also how dare you suggest that a 4-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), doesn't count because dodging abilities isn't useful.
  • Xair
    Xair Posts: 77 Match Maker
    i think that we need a definitive answer from dev team if bishop is getting nerfed or not, because i have only 3 skins on him, and if he isn't getting nerfed than he is the best char in game right now so i need to put my favorite on him, but if he will get nerfed than maybe putting favorite on him will be a waste.
    so nerfed or not at least tell us so we can plan ahead.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    blankcanvas said:
    tiomono said:
    blankcanvas said:
    All

    If I might be allowed to chime in.

    I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.

    I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.

    I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.

    The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.

    Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated! 
    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    As I said, I do not play PVP a great deal and clearly have not faced him as much as most, but I've thrown Miles & IW Spidey at him and they took care of business.

    I am looking forwards to using an xfdp & juggernaut combo as I believe that also could work. 
    The problem 5* players have with him is they cannot even make a match 3 vs Bishop without triggering him. Imagine if a 3* character was able to jump in front of an ally any time an enemy 4* made a match 3. That 3* also hits you for more damage than you did to them and gains 5 ap in a color that they can use to stun you for 4 turns or that an ally can use for whatever power they have, just for a 4* player making a match 3. 

    You might also change your tune with juggernaut once you give that a spin and realize his bigger match damage will trigger bishop more often.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,805 Chairperson of the Boards
    Xair said:
    i think that we need a definitive answer from dev team if bishop is getting nerfed or not, because i have only 3 skins on him, and if he isn't getting nerfed than he is the best char in game right now so i need to put my favorite on him, but if he will get nerfed than maybe putting favorite on him will be a waste.
    so nerfed or not at least tell us so we can plan ahead.
    There is no way they will talk about any nerf until it is imminent.

    The last couple of big nerfs have been 5's, and they did give people a bit of warning (Gambit was almost a month).

    But those were 5's, and people spend big money on 5's.

    Bishop is only "chase-able" as a bonus hero and not many people (I hope) are spending lots of money trying to get more 4* BHs.

    Bishop is NOT the best character in the game.  He is effective at getting people to skip you in PVP but he's slow and burns health packs like crazy.  Building teams around him will not be a good long term strategy, regardless of whether he gets nerfed or not.  If you are chasing 4's you should be focused on speed and sustainability for PVE grinding first.  Juggernaut is one that is recent and will help your game (alongside Rocket).  The new Torch is also really good.

    But you do bring up the point that chasing a 4 is almost as difficult as chasing a 5 (assuming you didn't grab lots of their covers when they were a Latest 4 in PVE).  My estimate is about 260 4* pulls to finish a 4, with whatever smattering of covers you might get from a PVP or whatever helping out.

    If they do adjust Bishop, it is incumbent on them to do it better than prior nerfs.  A small adjustment instead of turning him into garbage.

    Or they can just keep on doing what they are doing, which is nothing, and that's not as risky as doing something that will inevitably make a bunch of people angry while hopefully making some other group happy.

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