Nerf Bishop
Comments
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If you read closer, you'll see I did it with a teamup; I was using GE Doom with Chavez, as is my wont these days in pick-2 pvp events. The enemy team was Bishop/JJ, which is far less offensively dangerous than Grtitshop in simulator (for me), because you aren't compelled to chase match-4s to clear the strikes out. I was just curious mostly to verify that he would shut down AP that wasn't directly coming from a match, because Rogue doesn't work like that. I've never bothered to test it before with Aerial Supriority.
I did just go back in and dig around until i could queue up a Bishessica team again to actually try using Archangel. This one had a 311 Bishop, 459 JJ, and a loaner torch. Keep in mind my AA is only 285 1/2/1, but with a 450 GE Doom skimming any incidental black, I had 7 black by turn 2 and locked bishop's ap gain down with only Doom eating the stun. Unfortunately my AA is trash tier, and it stopped there. It's not the best test because Archangel at champ would also be triggering that retaliation on a "real" team.
I have a better Lumbercap, 2/4/4 leveled to 405, so he's triggering Bishop on matches, and queued up that same team to try again with GE Doom. I stacked +2 to purple and was able to get similar results - match some purple, trigger bishop, get Doom stunned, block the AI from using blue anymore, and then the dry board took over and Bishop/JJ cleaned house.2 -
I'm also not trying to pretend like I cracked the case or anything, i'm just trying to figure out what I can do to get past these teams some kind of way. I"m seeing them, and struggling with them, and I feel like Bishop is way OP as well.1
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In my experiences so far, SOMEbody is getting stunned, but if there’s a way to shut the stun down beyond that to avoid a total stunlock it would help my matches.
For my roster, bringing a 4/5 combo still seems to give me better results since I have most of the interesting 4s at decent levels. I haven’t tried playing down with Dazzler yet, because most of the 5s I have that start with a special out (gambit, Danver5) are under leveled to be useful for counter-stunning.
*edit - i tested my 280 Dazzler with my 255 Danver5, and even like that Dazzler only tanks Black. her Black/Green/Red color spread is just way too common for her to meaningfully play up.0 -
What worked was bringing a 479 Creepsicle because matching blue didn't trigger Bishop.
I still wouldn't call that reliable, though.
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I actually made a thread asking for a Danger Room after May's Cinema Showdown event: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/78224/danger-roomDaredevil217 said:You know this is another reason why I think a “Danger Room” type mode would be awesome (and I know this has been asked for countless times in the past).
I’d personally love to fight some low-level, partially covered Kitty teams that 4* players seem to be struggling with. First of all, it’d be fun. Second, I could help design counter teams out of the 80+ 4* characters that the tier has to offer. Then, after extensive testing, maybe we could know which counters are worth chasing (maybe there’s an effective Thanos or Dazzler team out there?) and what counters just don’t work without lot of luck. While I have lots of ideas that I truly think could work, I have no way to test it out. And dilution being what it is. It has to suck for a 4* player to chase and invest, only for the character to be ineffective in what they were designed to do.
Similarly, Hound, or any other 4* player, could bring Clagger, Gamora, and X-23 to fight the teams we see and see how well it works out. Or, they could experience what it is like for a 5* team to fight a Bishop-fueled 5* team.
I truly believe that Bishop should be nerfed, but if the developers refuse to view him as a problem, then having a Danger Room where we could ALL try and come up with the best in-game solution possible, would be pretty awesome (and again, fun!).
I proposed only allowing the player to use characters on their roster, because if players could use every character in the game, even those they don't have, I can see that curbing the desire to chase newly released characters.0 -
Name 2 solid counters for bishop.blankcanvas said:All
If I might be allowed to chime in.
I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.
I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.
I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.
The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.
Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated!0 -
Agreed, I’d like to hear those as well.tiomono said:
Name 2 solid counters for bishop.blankcanvas said:All
If I might be allowed to chime in.
I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.
I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.
I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.
The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.
Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated!0 -
tiomono said:Name 2 solid counters for bishop.Iceman 5, Doctor Octopus 5, Silver Surfer, Gamora 4, Iceman 4, Spider-Gwen, VultureLet me guess: doesn't count because I don't have him, doesn't count because I refuse to use them x2 (also how dare you suggest a 5-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), stuns don't count because they don't kill Bishop on turn 1 x3 (also how dare you suggest that a 4-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), doesn't count because dodging abilities isn't useful.0
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i think that we need a definitive answer from dev team if bishop is getting nerfed or not, because i have only 3 skins on him, and if he isn't getting nerfed than he is the best char in game right now so i need to put my favorite on him, but if he will get nerfed than maybe putting favorite on him will be a waste.
so nerfed or not at least tell us so we can plan ahead.2 -
No how dare you's from me. People have already pointed out why many of those are ineffective. Thank you for actually listing some characters.Zeofar said:tiomono said:Name 2 solid counters for bishop.Iceman 5, Doctor Octopus 5, Silver Surfer, Gamora 4, Iceman 4, Spider-Gwen, VultureLet me guess: doesn't count because I don't have him, doesn't count because I refuse to use them x2 (also how dare you suggest a 5-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), stuns don't count because they don't kill Bishop on turn 1 x3 (also how dare you suggest that a 4-star character can be used to beat a 4-star character), doesn't count because dodging abilities isn't useful.
I realize bishop is not hard to deal with in 4* land. The complaint with him is that the second you put a 5* character against him you are setting yourself up for an extremely rough match. I know it must sound crazy for 5* players to want to use their 5* characters. But people are strange like that.
Can you not at least acknowledge how crazy it is to not be able to make a match 3? Something you have to do every turn to play the game, but the enemy does more damage than you and gains more ap then you on your own turn, then they get to take their own turn.
That's like playing chess but the opponent gets to take 2 turns to your one. While players that are ok with that tell you it increases the strategy and puzzle solving aspect of the game to try and find solutions to win in that environment. Which is true in a non competitive environment. But when it is competitive then it's fair that players follow the same rules.
In a competitive environment Bishop skews the game against 5* players even when he is unboosted.6 -
The problem 5* players have with him is they cannot even make a match 3 vs Bishop without triggering him. Imagine if a 3* character was able to jump in front of an ally any time an enemy 4* made a match 3. That 3* also hits you for more damage than you did to them and gains 5 ap in a color that they can use to stun you for 4 turns or that an ally can use for whatever power they have, just for a 4* player making a match 3.blankcanvas said:
As I said, I do not play PVP a great deal and clearly have not faced him as much as most, but I've thrown Miles & IW Spidey at him and they took care of business.tiomono said:
Name 2 solid counters for bishop.blankcanvas said:All
If I might be allowed to chime in.
I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.
I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.
I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.
The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.
Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated!
I am looking forwards to using an xfdp & juggernaut combo as I believe that also could work.
You might also change your tune with juggernaut once you give that a spin and realize his bigger match damage will trigger bishop more often.0 -
There is no way they will talk about any nerf until it is imminent.Xair said:i think that we need a definitive answer from dev team if bishop is getting nerfed or not, because i have only 3 skins on him, and if he isn't getting nerfed than he is the best char in game right now so i need to put my favorite on him, but if he will get nerfed than maybe putting favorite on him will be a waste.
so nerfed or not at least tell us so we can plan ahead.
The last couple of big nerfs have been 5's, and they did give people a bit of warning (Gambit was almost a month).
But those were 5's, and people spend big money on 5's.
Bishop is only "chase-able" as a bonus hero and not many people (I hope) are spending lots of money trying to get more 4* BHs.
Bishop is NOT the best character in the game. He is effective at getting people to skip you in PVP but he's slow and burns health packs like crazy. Building teams around him will not be a good long term strategy, regardless of whether he gets nerfed or not. If you are chasing 4's you should be focused on speed and sustainability for PVE grinding first. Juggernaut is one that is recent and will help your game (alongside Rocket). The new Torch is also really good.
But you do bring up the point that chasing a 4 is almost as difficult as chasing a 5 (assuming you didn't grab lots of their covers when they were a Latest 4 in PVE). My estimate is about 260 4* pulls to finish a 4, with whatever smattering of covers you might get from a PVP or whatever helping out.
If they do adjust Bishop, it is incumbent on them to do it better than prior nerfs. A small adjustment instead of turning him into garbage.
Or they can just keep on doing what they are doing, which is nothing, and that's not as risky as doing something that will inevitably make a bunch of people angry while hopefully making some other group happy.2 -
I’ve asked this before. Inevitably you’ll get...Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
1. Silver Surfer
2. Unboosted 4* characters leveled low enough to not trigger Bishop
Now who’s hungry? I head @The rockett is buying Panera.
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Well I'm in the same minority lol. I would much rather prefer counters of some kind that stops his abuse of 5* match damage.blankcanvas said:
I do understand your point and the mechanics around how Bishop works. I can't disagree with any of it. I feel that given the level of conversation that he creates, the emphasis really has to fall to the dev team to come up with a viable solution. For me, that would preferably be in new characters rather than a nerf, but I accept I appear to be in the minority.tiomono said:
The problem 5* players have with him is they cannot even make a match 3 vs Bishop without triggering him. Imagine if a 3* character was able to jump in front of an ally any time an enemy 4* made a match 3. That 3* also hits you for more damage than you did to them and gains 5 ap in a color that they can use to stun you for 4 turns or that an ally can use for whatever power they have, just for a 4* player making a match 3.blankcanvas said:
As I said, I do not play PVP a great deal and clearly have not faced him as much as most, but I've thrown Miles & IW Spidey at him and they took care of business.tiomono said:
Name 2 solid counters for bishop.blankcanvas said:All
If I might be allowed to chime in.
I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.
I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.
I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.
The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.
Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated!
I am looking forwards to using an xfdp & juggernaut combo as I believe that also could work.
You might also change your tune with juggernaut once you give that a spin and realize his bigger match damage will trigger bishop more often.
Having just faced off with 4* Juggs in the final node on SIM day 3 (man that was difficult!) , I really feel like he's got the game to challenge Bishop.
Also agree with @bluewolf in that there's many options for a 'best' character. My personal top 3 in no particular order would be Vulture, Peggy & IW Spidey (best defensive character imo).1 -
Seems OP but really is no different to how BSSM reduces strike damage for the whole team 100% while alive.Tony_Foot said:I would like a five star with a passive that makes the team immune to stun while alive.1 -
Tony_Foot said:
And not one of them will post a video of them running unboosted four stars against kitty grocket and bishop. Or any of the other ideas they dream up. They keep saying it allows them to punch up, show us. Show us your punching up play and how you take down bishop.Daredevil217 said:
I’ve asked this before. Inevitably you’ll get...Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
1. Silver Surfer
2. Unboosted 4* characters leveled low enough to not trigger Bishop
Now who’s hungry? I head @The rockett is buying Panera.I don't have him champed yet (7 covers on my Juggs) but I believe an unboosted 4* team of Juggs/Thanos/Riri will be an excellent way to take on Gritshop because:Juggs tanks all but Black and with a huge health pool and 90% immunity to the strikes he will last a good while (a true tank).Thanos removes 2 strikes per turn (plus whatever you can match away) so the boost cycle will stop very quickly (at which point the enemy team has no real direct damage powers other than Bishop retal). He also generates green while doing so (he's the specialty character on this team specifically for Gritshop).Riri is the damage dealer (her Red can be used to strike Kitty/Rocket if you put Bishop in front and you won't trigger his passives) and can send Bishop airborne (with damage to boot) allowing you to use Thanos Black/her Blue etc.Just be sure to set Juggs AOE power to 3 covers so he doesn't keep plinking away too much at Bishop and trigger his damage retal.KGB4 -
I believe Thanos only removes 1 Strike per turn but in 4* land your plan looks sound to me.1
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Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.
What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point?0 -
So professor x going invisible makes the whole team invisible? Or maybe you mean miles, or ghost, or howard, or mysterio, or black suit spidey, maybe agent venom (getting closer). Even invisible woman only gives 2 turns of invis to her allies. Bishops 10 blue will be waiting for whoever comes out of invis first.HoundofShadow said:Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.
What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point?
And what point are you wanting to make with the levels of gritty and bishop?0
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