Nerf Bishop

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  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,925 Chairperson of the Boards
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    tiomono said:

    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    I’ve asked this before. Inevitably you’ll get...

    1. Silver Surfer
    2. Unboosted 4* characters leveled low enough to not trigger Bishop

    Now who’s hungry? I head @The rockett is buying Panera. 


  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    blankcanvas said:
    tiomono said:
    blankcanvas said:
    tiomono said:
    blankcanvas said:
    All

    If I might be allowed to chime in.

    I'm a regular voyeur of the forums but felt compelled to sign up so I may add my voice to this particular discussion.

    I'm day 920 and still thoroughly enjoy the game despite the dilution issue and meeting R&G on an all too regular basis.

    I play almost exclusively PVE and would like to add that Bishop is incredibly useful in this mode and has gotten me out of more than a few sticky situations in the past; and whilst I totally understand the calls for him to be hit with the nerf bat, I really cannot see how anyone is going to be the happier for it given the track record of nerfs in the past; OML, Gambit, Kingpin, Mr F to name a few.

    The element of the game is puzzle. The puzzle is to work out how best to counter him. I believe some of the releases in 2019 have been excellent solutions to counter the Gritty meta; Th4nos & Sabretooth immediately spring to mind. I do believe just like those examples, there's solid counters to Bishop also and the puzzle element of the game is finding those.

    Shout out to @brigby and the dev team for all their hard work. It is appreciated! 
    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    As I said, I do not play PVP a great deal and clearly have not faced him as much as most, but I've thrown Miles & IW Spidey at him and they took care of business.

    I am looking forwards to using an xfdp & juggernaut combo as I believe that also could work. 
    The problem 5* players have with him is they cannot even make a match 3 vs Bishop without triggering him. Imagine if a 3* character was able to jump in front of an ally any time an enemy 4* made a match 3. That 3* also hits you for more damage than you did to them and gains 5 ap in a color that they can use to stun you for 4 turns or that an ally can use for whatever power they have, just for a 4* player making a match 3. 

    You might also change your tune with juggernaut once you give that a spin and realize his bigger match damage will trigger bishop more often.
    I do understand your point and the mechanics around how Bishop works. I can't disagree with any of it. I feel that given the level of conversation that he creates, the emphasis really has to fall to the dev team to come up with a viable solution. For me, that would preferably be in new characters rather than a nerf, but I accept I appear to be in the minority. 

    Having just faced off with 4* Juggs in the final node on SIM day 3 (man that was difficult!) , I really feel like he's got the game to challenge Bishop. 

    Also agree with @bluewolf in that there's many options for a 'best' character. My personal top 3 in no particular order would be Vulture, Peggy & IW Spidey (best defensive character imo).
    Well I'm in the same minority lol. I would much rather prefer counters of some kind that stops his abuse of 5* match damage.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,725 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I would like a five star with a passive that makes the team immune to stun while alive.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,925 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Tony_Foot said:
    I would like a five star with a passive that makes the team immune to stun while alive.
    Seems OP but really is no different to how BSSM reduces strike damage for the whole team 100% while alive. 
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 984 Critical Contributor
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    Tony_Foot said:
    I would like a five star with a passive that makes the team immune to stun while alive.
    Oh! How about a five-star who's immune to stun and can send teammates airborne?
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 2,994 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
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    Tony_Foot said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:

    Name 2 solid counters for bishop.
    I’ve asked this before. Inevitably you’ll get...

    1. Silver Surfer
    2. Unboosted 4* characters leveled low enough to not trigger Bishop

    Now who’s hungry? I head @The rockett is buying Panera. 


    And not one of them will post a video of them running unboosted four stars against kitty grocket and bishop. Or any of the other ideas they dream up. They keep saying it allows them to punch up, show us. Show us your punching up play and how you take down bishop.
    I don't have him champed yet (7 covers on my Juggs) but I believe an unboosted 4* team of Juggs/Thanos/Riri will be an excellent way to take on Gritshop because:

    Juggs tanks all but Black and with a huge health pool and  90% immunity to the strikes he will last a good while (a true tank).
    Thanos removes 2 strikes per turn (plus whatever you can match away) so the boost cycle will stop very quickly (at which point the enemy team has no real direct damage powers other than Bishop retal). He also generates green while doing so (he's the specialty character on this team specifically for Gritshop).
    Riri is the damage dealer (her Red can be used to strike Kitty/Rocket if you put Bishop in front and you won't trigger his passives) and can send Bishop airborne (with damage to boot) allowing you to use Thanos Black/her Blue etc.

    Just be sure to set Juggs AOE power to 3 covers so he doesn't keep plinking away too much at Bishop and trigger his damage retal.

    KGB
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
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    I believe Thanos only removes 1 Strike per turn but in 4* land your plan looks sound to me.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.

    What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point? 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
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    HoundofShadow said:
    Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.

    What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point? 
    So professor x going invisible makes the whole team invisible? Or maybe you mean miles, or ghost, or howard, or mysterio, or black suit spidey, maybe agent venom (getting closer). Even invisible woman only gives 2 turns of invis to her allies. Bishops 10 blue will be waiting for whoever comes out of invis first. 

    And what point are you wanting to make with the levels of gritty and bishop?
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
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    HoundofShadow said:
    Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.

    What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point? 
    If you’d like to prove a point go into a match against Bishop with any three champed 5*’s you choose, play normally, don’t get stunned in a minimum of two turns.


    The point has never been about winning. Never. Ever. 













    Never.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,206 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I completely realize that this is likely going to derail the thread, but I can't not notice the strange dig in pointing out multi-stuns  are only available to female characters. Seems a superfluous observation

  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
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    BigSoftieFF said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    Invisible makes your team immune to stun, except for random stun, which is available to only female characters, with the exception of Taskmaster.

    What minimum levels must Gritty and Bishop be to prove the point? 
    If you’d like to prove a point go into a match against Bishop with any three champed 5*’s you choose, play normally, don’t get stunned in a minimum of two turns.


    The point has never been about winning. Never. Ever. 













    Never.
    Let's say 460 kitty 370 rocket 340 bishop.  That's about what I see on average.  How long do you think it would take riri to deal 100k damage to the enemy team?  Keep in kind juggs probably wont tank very long, either.  His increased match damage will trigger bishop and he'll be stunned, then either he or riri/thanks can eat the 10k match damage from gritty.  I suppose thanos slows that down some after 3 or 4 turns.  But still, 100k is a lot to ask of that team.  
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
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    Going invisible makes you immune to non-random stun. I believe the AI will fire the stun even when your teammate is invisible. That's how smart the AI is.

    Sorry for being unclear but I was referring to Tony_Foot:

    And not one of them will post a video of them running unboosted four stars against kitty grocket and bishop. Or any of the other ideas they dream up. They keep saying it allows them to punch up, show us. Show us your punching up play and how you take down bishop.

    I was wondering what minimum levels they have to be to satisfy his critieria. I suppose a champed Kitty, 370 R4G and 3XX Bishop? Or is it open to other levels.

    Edit: I just saw the above replies. So, it's about not getting stunned in turn 2, and not about being able to win a match against Bishop. 

    I will throw in Silver Surfer or Dr Ock. However, the counter-arguments would be:

     1) they are impossible to cover

    2) they are not viable

    A few conditions, based on replies here, attached to being a counter to Bishop should be able to:

    1) not trigger his passives

    2) not trigger his stun on turn 2

    3) the team used to counter him should not leave a target on your back on defense

    4) possibly not using healthpack(s)

    The fact is: counter(s) to Bishop exists. But when you include so many conditions, the counter(s) cease to exist.

    Is there any difference between saying BBSM (before Thanos/Sabretooth) is a counter to R4G and Silver Surfer is a counter to Bishop? I find them to have some core similarities.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,925 Chairperson of the Boards
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    If Surfer made it so his entire team couldn’t get stunned while alive, the same way Spidey makes it so his whole team can’t take strike damage while alive, I’d agree.


    Spidey would be another stratosphere worse, if you had to make sure he tanked everything in order to shrug off strikes. Especially since Spidey and Surfer are cursed with super low match damage compared to their newer peers. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    After over 20 pages, both sides can only agree to disagree.

    Therefore, a middle ground would be to create a 4* or 5* that can stun characters who gain aps that are not stolen from opponents' ap pools passively.

    For every ap gain passively that is not stolen, stun that character for that amount of turn. 

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
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    The Limited Spidey Pig could differentiate between tile movers and goons. So, I guess the code is already in place.

    Edit: BSSM nerfs only strike tiles. I think that's why Kitty generates attack and protect tiles to dodge BSSM.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,206 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Alternatively a 4*/5* that could shut down passives would solve this problem. I've proposed it a number of times. tie it to a special tile that only appears at start of match, until it's matched away or destroyed similar to Chekhov's Gun. Or make it countdown based- since it would be shutting down Kitty's purple, it would be safe to have out.

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