Nerf Bishop

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

The comment referred to was mine about nerfing 5* and it was at time of posting very much a joke and is therefore referred to very much out of context by tiomono above (I even mentioned Okoye). I stated it was a joke a little while afterwards and so I would appreciate that it is not misrepresented literally weeks later here on page whatever this is, please. However, much like jp1 feels, I also felt piled upon so I also got sucked into a snarkiness that this thread took for a turn. I was even told I was being "too emotional". I found none of that very conducive to reasonable discussion. A few weeks later we seem no further along but I am least listening.

So who was piling on you when you are the first response in a discussion and you open with a joke and not respond to the topic being raised?

If you want to talk bishop talk bishop. I'm not going to argue over what intentions of words are when you yourself called your first post "mostly in jest".

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

The comment referred to was mine about nerfing 5* and it was at time of posting very much a joke and is therefore referred to very much out of context by tiomono above (I even mentioned Okoye). I stated it was a joke a little while afterwards and so I would appreciate that it is not misrepresented literally weeks later here on page whatever this is, please. However, much like jp1 feels, I also felt piled upon so I also got sucked into a snarkiness that this thread took for a turn. I was even told I was being "too emotional". I found none of that very conducive to reasonable discussion. A few weeks later we seem no further along but I am least listening.

So who was piling on you when you are the first response in a discussion with a joke and not respond to the topic being raised?

If you want to talk bishop talk bishop. I'm not going to argue over what intentions of words are when you yourself called your first post "mostly in jest".

OK, let's talk Bishop. Despite various Devs being summoned to comment on the thread, none have appeared to comment. On another platform it is reported that he isn't on the radar to be "rebalanced". 

Daredevil217

DAZ0273 said:

Therealsmkspy said:

Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.

Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.

Neuromancer

I don't feel he needs a rebalance, but a hard 5* counter. As of late, the devs release new characters faster than they modify old ones. I think you'll have better luck requesting a counter character.

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

The comment referred to was mine about nerfing 5* and it was at time of posting very much a joke and is therefore referred to very much out of context by tiomono above (I even mentioned Okoye). I stated it was a joke a little while afterwards and so I would appreciate that it is not misrepresented literally weeks later here on page whatever this is, please. However, much like jp1 feels, I also felt piled upon so I also got sucked into a snarkiness that this thread took for a turn. I was even told I was being "too emotional". I found none of that very conducive to reasonable discussion. A few weeks later we seem no further along but I am least listening.

So who was piling on you when you are the first response in a discussion with a joke and not respond to the topic being raised?

If you want to talk bishop talk bishop. I'm not going to argue over what intentions of words are when you yourself called your first post "mostly in jest".

OK, let's talk Bishop. Despite various Devs being summoned to comment on the thread, none have appeared to comment. On another platform it is reported that he isn't on the radar to be "rebalanced". 

Fair enough. I'm not seeing where it was mentioned that a dev said on discord no nerf was in the books (can someone cited a page number?) I thought it was also mentioned that the dev then went on to theory craft how to handle bishop. So they may realize he is a problem but are thinking of counter strategies instead of rebalancing. Which is very common for these devs.

Most of the big problem characters that have come around were not immediately rebalanced. They even tried counter characters to gambit before deciding that he was indeed too big of a problem. Its also easy to see they are trying to create counter characters to many meta/common teams.

You and I both already agreed we do not want a nerf. But that we would like to see counter characters come along and see what shakes out. 

Do you have an opinion one way or another on bishop being a problem for the 5* tier? Many are saying he is no problem, many others think he is the spawn of Satan lol.

I strongly feel that a character that makes the most basic aspect of this game, matching 3 tiles, to be a burden on a whole tier of characters needs to be addressed. 

I also strongly feel that taking your turn and doing 2k damage and earning 3 ap vs an opponent doing 4k damage and gaining 8 ap in the same time span is a problem. 

I want the devs to know that many players feel that bishop is a problem and one that needs an answer of some form. I have stated why I feel some characters that are listed as counters are not good enough. Other people can disagree with that viewpoint. 

Now a bit of silliness. Anyone that lists Dr. Ock as a counter needs to realize he is as effective as lumbercap or archangel vs gambit back in the day.

wymtime

Neuromancer said:

I don't feel he needs a rebalance, but a hard 5* counter. As of late, the devs release new characters faster than they modify old ones. I think you'll have better luck requesting a counter character.

But what would a hard counter be?  It would not be just a 5* that cannot be stunned as bishop generates so much AP.  Players could then pair him with a character that can use blue differently.  Think gritty kitty bishop where instead of stun Groot fires his blue and you are double dipping on strike tiles with attack tiles and direct damage.  There are mild nerfs they could do to still make him good for players to be used on offense but not as Daytona on defense.  As it is many players such as myself only put him out for my last match to deter others from attacking reason I do this is because if I use him too much he uses a health pack each match.

a reasonable nerf is like he has to be in front to gain the AP (no more jumping in front), or if he is attacked directly he does not gain AP (like 3* DP has to jump in front), or he only gains AP one time for total damage from the round so a cascade does not give him 30 AP.  

Both of these suggestions would still still make him useful but not in my opinion broken.

Therealsmkspy

Daredevil217 said:

DAZ0273 said:

Therealsmkspy said:

Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.

Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.

Well, being direct is often misconstrued as being mean. I could have written a long tip toe paragraph that eventually said the same thing, but more than likely the point would have been lost in the tip toeing. 

@daz0273, FWIW, my comment wasn't referring to you, just happened to fall under yours.

bluewolf

I just want a 5 that stops passive AP gain, can't be stunned and responds to powers immediately with their own blast, twice as strong....all passively.

That should do it.

This is who Captain Marvel should be instead of what we got.  (as @therightwaye aptly pointed out earlier)

EDIT:  Snark aside, I find it hard to believe that a character who effectively countered Bishop while not also being a huge target would not soon be the subject of their own nerf thread.......

tiomono

bluewolf said:

I just want a 5 that stops passive AP gain, can't be stunned and responds to powers immediately with their own blast, twice as strong....all passively.

That should do it.

This is who Captain Marvel should be instead of what we got.  (as @therightwaye aptly pointed out earlier)

EDIT:  Snark aside, I find it hard to believe that a character who effectively countered Bishop while not also being a huge target would not soon be the subject of their own nerf thread.......

They just model the character after bssm. One really good specific niche strength (stopping ap gain for the opponent during their own turn), and 2 ok to garbage powers. 

They will be used when someone encounters a bishop team. But not a character they are going to want to run outside of that niche.

DAZ0273

Daredevil217 said:

DAZ0273 said:

Therealsmkspy said:

Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.

Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.

Right. So let's sum up where we are. Which is nowhere. Let's not act like you are anywhere closer to achieving your goal. By all means throw in some entertaining snark but jp1 is sleeping sound in his bed anyway. And Bishop is still broken. And I'm still crying into my pillow I guess. You guys are such cads.

You know what, even though I don't think a nerf will go so well, I am on your side. I can see why it benefits you and how, like Bigsoftee fellow said there is no other side to the debate.  So what next then? If Bishop is to be nerfed then I think you need more than however many pages this is that are being ignored by the people who have the power to do it. 

So Bishop. From the information available nothing will happen regardless of deserving or not. That of course doesn't mean you/we can't continue to force the issue and maybe change the situation. Doesn't seem like much ground is being gained here just by stating loudly that he is broken and so maybe these tactics are simply the wrong ones? Not sure. The Gambit nerf took a long time and a few botched versions, I can only assume that the metrics that the Dev's care about are not kicking in for this. Maybe something can be learned there though, although personally I wouldn,'t wanna go back through all those old threads. I can only say, maybe change tactics? Maybe there could be a Shield Sim where players agree not to use Bishop as some sort of protest? I dunno. Probably the forum is too small a basis to organise that but  could try. Hit the Facebook page? I don't see much Dev interaction there but I am by no means a regular. Boycott other PvP? Organise a protest against Bishop in Simulator PvE by refusing to play that node? Reddit? Not sure where else. Buy them lunch? Maybe they are so afraid of Nerfs because they seem bad at it that Bishop is doomed to be broken forever? Look what they did to Mr. Fantastic...oh wait that was because of Bishop too I think? Not a good sign. 😑 Do you think that if players are still getting to their goals like hitting full progress in Shield Sim then the Dev's see no reason to do anything? I honestly don't know and the radio silence will keep us all in the dark.

I truly hope something is done to help. I wish you luck. And as much of a sensitive snowflake I am, I am glad that *everything* is back on the table. Did you hear the one about  the 5* player who had to give up playing chess?

jp1

Therealsmkspy said:

Daredevil217 said:

DAZ0273 said:

Therealsmkspy said:

Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.

Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.

Well, being direct is often misconstrued as being mean. I could have written a long tip toe paragraph that eventually said the same thing, but more than likely the point would have been lost in the tip toeing. 

Clearly nothing more to say here.

I want to respond in kind...but seriously it has to stop somewhere.

Throwing fire at the sun at this point.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

The comment referred to was mine about nerfing 5* and it was at time of posting very much a joke and is therefore referred to very much out of context by tiomono above (I even mentioned Okoye). I stated it was a joke a little while afterwards and so I would appreciate that it is not misrepresented literally weeks later here on page whatever this is, please. However, much like jp1 feels, I also felt piled upon so I also got sucked into a snarkiness that this thread took for a turn. I was even told I was being "too emotional". I found none of that very conducive to reasonable discussion. A few weeks later we seem no further along but I am least listening.

So who was piling on you when you are the first response in a discussion with a joke and not respond to the topic being raised?

If you want to talk bishop talk bishop. I'm not going to argue over what intentions of words are when you yourself called your first post "mostly in jest".

OK, let's talk Bishop. Despite various Devs being summoned to comment on the thread, none have appeared to comment. On another platform it is reported that he isn't on the radar to be "rebalanced". 

Fair enough. I'm not seeing where it was mentioned that a dev said on discord no nerf was in the books (can someone cited a page number?) I thought it was also mentioned that the dev then went on to theory craft how to handle bishop. So they may realize he is a problem but are thinking of counter strategies instead of rebalancing. Which is very common for these devs.

Most of the big problem characters that have come around were not immediately rebalanced. They even tried counter characters to gambit before deciding that he was indeed too big of a problem. Its also easy to see they are trying to create counter characters to many meta/common teams.

You and I both already agreed we do not want a nerf. But that we would like to see counter characters come along and see what shakes out. 

Do you have an opinion one way or another on bishop being a problem for the 5* tier? Many are saying he is no problem, many others think he is the spawn of Satan lol.

I strongly feel that a character that makes the most basic aspect of this game, matching 3 tiles, to be a burden on a whole tier of characters needs to be addressed. 

I also strongly feel that taking your turn and doing 2k damage and earning 3 ap vs an opponent doing 4k damage and gaining 8 ap in the same time span is a problem. 

I want the devs to know that many players feel that bishop is a problem and one that needs an answer of some form. I have stated why I feel some characters that are listed as counters are not good enough. Other people can disagree with that viewpoint. 

Now a bit of silliness. Anyone that lists Dr. Ock as a counter needs to realize he is as effective as lumbercap or archangel vs gambit back in the day.

I will be honest, I am going on what I *think* was said and that was that there was nothing on the radar about looking at him, you could well be right and I hope you are.

We do agree on Bishop and no nerf BUT I am not so intractable to take it off the table if a counter isn't possible. Obviously 5* players should not be punished for simply matching 3, that is ridiculous. I got bogged down early on a lot in my hatred for Kitty which is a separate thread, I should have engaged in the topic early on. My mistake.

My response to Daredevil is slightly sarcastic but also truthful - this thread doesn't seem like it will get Bishop nerfed alone.

DAZ0273

Therealsmkspy said:

Daredevil217 said:

DAZ0273 said:

Therealsmkspy said:

Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.

Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!

I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.

Well, being direct is often misconstrued as being mean. I could have written a long tip toe paragraph that eventually said the same thing, but more than likely the point would have been lost in the tip toeing. 

@daz0273, FWIW, my comment wasn't referring to you, just happened to fall under yours.

Lol, no probs, that seems to be my lot in here!

Neuromancer

wymtime said:

But what would a hard counter be? 

a reasonable nerf...

The devs have never taken suggestions from the player base in regard to character powers — that's okay, they don't pay me anyway — nor are they ever reasonable when they nerf, which is very rare. Gambit reigned supreme for many moons before he was hit with the nerf hammer at the behest of the player base. By all means, though, keep behesting, just be prepared to behest for about a year (or more) since the character isn't as effective in his lockdown as Gambit.

BigSoftieFF

I’ve since deleted the pics but it was definitely stated on Discord that there are no plans to nerf Bishop along with some glorious ways to perhaps handle him.

I hope the whole forum ends up being about Bishop as it might at least drive a response but I  also believe in the grand scheme of things he’s only irritating a smallish subset of the player base.

ThaRoadWarrior

I find it a little wild nobody has come into this thread to at least moderate the discourse. Commenting on the character by designers is so rare I don’t think anyone honestly expects it, but usually at least the mods move in to keep things civil by now.

i think the most reasonable “fix” for Bishop is to make his power work as worded, and stop collecting AP when he hits 10. Barring that, he needs to gain 1 blue every time you hit the threshold rather than 5

LLohm

Or he stops jumping in front all together. Keep him the way he is but if he stops jumping, we have a choice on how to deal with him and in offence, his tanking colors can still be selected and he will retain his punching upward abilities for the 4* players.

Most elegant solution I can think of. Does this possibly destroy his ability to let people float? Maybe but that action is the one causing all the boredom in the game where people just float all day and cause walls of Bishop to appear everywhere.

fight4thedream

***Mod note: Just a friendly reminder to stay on topic and perhaps cut back a bit on the snark, as often it adds little to nothing to the discussion and tends be hit-or-miss. And as always remember to be excellent to each other. Thank you!

JackDeath666

Removing all inflammatory content leaves me with:

Fix Bishop. He is broken for no reasons other than the well articulated ones above and in the separate thread. He is also making the game nearly as boring as this thread. 

And for goodness sake, can't a developer at least post something to acknowledge that they are aware that this is an issue?

jredd

if OML was nerfed because of a greater than 10% usage, which if i'm not mistaken was their stated reasoning, then they really need to actually play their game and hit the 1600 point threshold in sim. now i'm no mathematician, but if i had to guess, about 98% of squads that come up are running him.

it's ruining this part of the game. 

a nerf, change or counter has to be the biggest issue right now.

but i'm sure we'll get a new character here in a week or so.