Nerf Bishop

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  • Zeofar
    Zeofar Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Alternatively a 4*/5* that could shut down passives would solve this problem. I've proposed it a number of times. tie it to a special tile that only appears at start of match, until it's matched away or destroyed similar to Chekhov's Gun. Or make it countdown based- since it would be shutting down Kitty's purple, it would be safe to have out.
    There's already a mechanic that deals with passives: stunning. And, let's be clear, we all know that Bishop is defined by passives so this is really just a roundabout way to design a character that says "Bishop is stunned for the entire match", with the added kick that every other character that leans on passives is also pretty much gutted. Then again, maybe crippling half the 5-stars on defense is exactly the kind of design the meta needs these days.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    After over 20 pages, both sides can only agree to disagree.

    Therefore, a middle ground would be to create a 4* or 5* that can stun characters who gain aps that are not stolen from opponents' ap pools passively.

    For every ap gain passively that is not stolen, stun that character for that amount of turn. 

    Lol you just stunned bishop for 30 turns.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    We can put a cap, like up to 3 turn or 4 turn.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    The idea of a character that negates passives is not new with Bishop; he's just the most annoying expression of passives yet.

    It would be such a massive nerf to so many characters, and probably buggy as all get out, to have this ability in the game. 

    I'm sure that character would be relative garbage beyond that ability.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    The idea of a character that negates passives is not new with Bishop; he's just the most annoying expression of passives yet.

    It would be such a massive nerf to so many characters, and probably buggy as all get out, to have this ability in the game. 

    I'm sure that character would be relative garbage beyond that ability.
    I still think a character that passively stops ap gain for the opponent when it is not the opponents turn would be perfect.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    bluewolf said:
    The idea of a character that negates passives is not new with Bishop; he's just the most annoying expression of passives yet.

    It would be such a massive nerf to so many characters, and probably buggy as all get out, to have this ability in the game. 

    I'm sure that character would be relative garbage beyond that ability.
    I still think a character that passively stops ap gain for the opponent when it is not the opponents turn would be perfect.

    While that would finally solve the 3* Carol glitch in wave nodes, it comes at the expense of 4* Carol, Miles, Medusa and probably others while totally removing the downside of some character powers like 3* Black Panther, Ares, Namor and possibly others there, too.  I'm not saying this means that the passive shouldn't exist, but we at least need to acknowledge the theoretical power you  describe has a much wider impact than merely toning down Bishop.

    I'd prefer if Bishop was given a condition for his "jump to front" mechanic like literally every other character who has that mechanic.  It doesn't gut the character while still providing a method to circumvent him...or, you know, a puzzle.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    ZootSax said:

    I'd prefer if Bishop was given a condition for his "jump to front" mechanic like literally every other character who has that mechanic.  It doesn't gut the character while still providing a method to circumvent him...or, you know, a puzzle.
    But there is a condition. If you breathe on one of his teammates, he jumps in front, zaps you, and gets AP. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    ZootSax said:
    tiomono said:
    bluewolf said:
    The idea of a character that negates passives is not new with Bishop; he's just the most annoying expression of passives yet.

    It would be such a massive nerf to so many characters, and probably buggy as all get out, to have this ability in the game. 

    I'm sure that character would be relative garbage beyond that ability.
    I still think a character that passively stops ap gain for the opponent when it is not the opponents turn would be perfect.

    While that would finally solve the 3* Carol glitch in wave nodes, it comes at the expense of 4* Carol, Miles, Medusa and probably others while totally removing the downside of some character powers like 3* Black Panther, Ares, Namor and possibly others there, too.  I'm not saying this means that the passive shouldn't exist, but we at least need to acknowledge the theoretical power you  describe has a much wider impact than merely toning down Bishop.

    I'd prefer if Bishop was given a condition for his "jump to front" mechanic like literally every other character who has that mechanic.  It doesn't gut the character while still providing a method to circumvent him...or, you know, a puzzle.
    Bssm affects way more than just grocket. But it's not seen as a huge problem. None of those other characters benefit from their ap on the enemy turn more than bishop.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    ZootSax said:
    tiomono said:
    bluewolf said:
    The idea of a character that negates passives is not new with Bishop; he's just the most annoying expression of passives yet.

    It would be such a massive nerf to so many characters, and probably buggy as all get out, to have this ability in the game. 

    I'm sure that character would be relative garbage beyond that ability.
    I still think a character that passively stops ap gain for the opponent when it is not the opponents turn would be perfect.

    While that would finally solve the 3* Carol glitch in wave nodes, it comes at the expense of 4* Carol, Miles, Medusa and probably others while totally removing the downside of some character powers like 3* Black Panther, Ares, Namor and possibly others there, too.  I'm not saying this means that the passive shouldn't exist, but we at least need to acknowledge the theoretical power you  describe has a much wider impact than merely toning down Bishop.

    I'd prefer if Bishop was given a condition for his "jump to front" mechanic like literally every other character who has that mechanic.  It doesn't gut the character while still providing a method to circumvent him...or, you know, a puzzle.
    Bssm affects way more than just grocket. But it's not seen as a huge problem. None of those other characters benefit from their ap on the enemy turn more than bishop.
    I agree completely and I wouldn't be opposed to a power along the lines of what you described.  I just fear a counter being designed against one character without considering the ramifications on all other characters across all tiers.  For example, would a 5* with one cover in that theoretical ability make Panther too strong in the 3* tier among that MMR?  Probably not, as the best black generators are all in the 4* tier, but it's a worthwhile question to ask.  That was my only point.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    I’d settle for his passive only being able to trigger once per move. Then if you get a lucky cascade you don’t get stunlocked 😂 

    He could still stun in turn 2 but you would at least maybe able to strategize who you want stunned. 
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    I think @BriMan2222 said it most eloquently in another thread.
    Bishop on the other hand punishes you for making match 3's in a match 3 game.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "****?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
    That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2019
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
    That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

    Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

    And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
    That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

    Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

    And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.
    "Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
    That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

    Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

    And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.
    "Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 

    Well then clearly you don't play cl9 in PVE and have no idea what Bishop does. Sorry you don't get that. And no, it's not a Sim problem. He's in every PVP. He's abused the most in PVP's where you can choose 3 toons, but he's everywhere.

    I think the disconnect is that you're not a 5* player, so you have a completely different MMR in PVP.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Pretty good example of what's going on:

    Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

    Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

    After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.
    That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

    Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

    And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.
    "Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 

    Well then clearly you don't play cl9 in PVE and have no idea what Bishop does. Sorry you don't get that. And no, it's not a Sim problem. He's in every PVP. He's abused the most in PVP's where you can choose 3 toons, but he's everywhere.

    I think the disconnect is that you're not a 5* player, so you have a completely different MMR in PVP.
    I don't get the relevance of PvE scl9 when Bishop is there for like, one event? Oh and I am currently playing  SCL9 in PvE. Otherwise I will take your word for it, fair enough. I do stand by though that 5* players do seem to be still getting their rewards so things can't really be that dire. I also don't see that many PvP's where really running Bishop will have a spot in the world of Thorkoye or Gritty but again, sorry for your suffering.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    I already mentioned earlier, but if I run Gritty or Thorkoye against LR seeds teams, I get smashed down to the 250 iso reward off retals. If I play with unboosted Bishop, I come back later to 1-2 Heroic tokens.  Any pick-3 PvP has a wall of Bishop. And I’m seeing him more and more in pick-2.  I can’t wait until I get Iceman champed (opening the hoard Monday!). I imagine not many will want to tangle with Iceshop on defense. But I could be wrong. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

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