Nerf Bishop

BigSoftieFF

I’d settle for his passive only being able to trigger once per move. Then if you get a lucky cascade you don’t get stunlocked 😂 

He could still stun in turn 2 but you would at least maybe able to strategize who you want stunned. 

JSP869

I think @BriMan2222 said it most eloquently in another thread.

Bishop on the other hand punishes you for making match 3's in a match 3 game.

Sm0keyJ0e

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "****?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

DAZ0273

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

Sm0keyJ0e

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.

DAZ0273

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.

"Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 

Sm0keyJ0e

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.

"Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 

Well then clearly you don't play cl9 in PVE and have no idea what Bishop does. Sorry you don't get that. And no, it's not a Sim problem. He's in every PVP. He's abused the most in PVP's where you can choose 3 toons, but he's everywhere.

I think the disconnect is that you're not a 5* player, so you have a completely different MMR in PVP.

DAZ0273

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Pretty good example of what's going on:

Wife has been playing for years, several champed 5*'s, only plays PVE (like, literally doesn't touch PVP). She has never understood my chagrin for Bishop.

Simulator, Sub 2, loud yelling from another room in the house: "tinykitty?! Why is my entire team stunned??"

After the simple explanation, she now wants to bonus Bishop and devote all resources into him, which I reckon is roughly the same for everyone else once they realize how he works.

That is one node on PVE though. I don't want to fight this too much but she can go her merry way playing Enemy of the State, no? And all the other PvE. If she doesn't play PvP why?!?! Makes no sense but I wish her luck.

Because she can get 5-30 blue after 1 turn against most of the e5's and stun-lock the enemy team for the cost of 1 health pack?

And my point is, everyone who encounters what Bishop does for the first time in PVP thinks the same thing as her.

"Everyone" is a dangerous word and again, if you don't play PvP then it makes no difference. Why would you go after a character like Bishop for PvE if you have 5*? Not sure I get that, sorry. And if you do play PvP then this is really mostly a Shield Sim issue but willing to be wrong on that. From what I see, the 5* guys still make it to 2000 anyway. 

Well then clearly you don't play cl9 in PVE and have no idea what Bishop does. Sorry you don't get that. And no, it's not a Sim problem. He's in every PVP. He's abused the most in PVP's where you can choose 3 toons, but he's everywhere.

I think the disconnect is that you're not a 5* player, so you have a completely different MMR in PVP.

I don't get the relevance of PvE scl9 when Bishop is there for like, one event? Oh and I am currently playing  SCL9 in PvE. Otherwise I will take your word for it, fair enough. I do stand by though that 5* players do seem to be still getting their rewards so things can't really be that dire. I also don't see that many PvP's where really running Bishop will have a spot in the world of Thorkoye or Gritty but again, sorry for your suffering.

Daredevil217

I already mentioned earlier, but if I run Gritty or Thorkoye against LR seeds teams, I get smashed down to the 250 iso reward off retals. If I play with unboosted Bishop, I come back later to 1-2 Heroic tokens.  Any pick-3 PvP has a wall of Bishop. And I’m seeing him more and more in pick-2.  I can’t wait until I get Iceman champed (opening the hoard Monday!). I imagine not many will want to tangle with Iceshop on defense. But I could be wrong. 

DAZ0273

Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

Therealsmkspy

Member that time Starlord got his rework which created an unbeatable winfinite team, and the devs fixed it in two days?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

justsing

DAZ0273 said:

Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

It's not about whether people are still able to hit 2000 or not. Like others have said in their posts, it's simply NOT FUN. Bishop's mechanism triggered by 5* match damage is not fun. It's broken and OP. And because he's so annoying in 5* land, tons of people float with Bishop + another 5* such as JJ or 5trange. 

Just a note in general, I really don't appreciate people who aren't in 5* land themselves discounting the opinions of actual 5* players re: Bishop. If you're a 5* player who disagrees about nerfing Bishop, all the power to you. I respect that there are different opinions out there. But for those of you who haven't had to deal with Bishop in 5* PVP, please don't tell us how we should feel or that we're wrong for feeling what we feel. 

Daredevil217

DAZ0273 said:

Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

I’m different than most. I “want” to hit 1200 in each PVP event. But I’m only doing it about 50% of the time. I don’t use coordination and just go it solo. Often at the end of an event, so I shoot myself in the foot. 900 is guaranteed.  1000 happens maybe 80% of the time. 1200 is tough and happens maybe half the time. 

I’d argue that Bishop has actually helped me get MORE rewards than I was netting pre-Bish. I’ve gotten some T10 PVP finishes in pick 3 offseason events by manipulating MMR and using Bish, top 50 in Sim, top 50 the last season, and the aforementioned heroics from lightning rounds. Prizes aren’t the end all be all to everyone and I’d happily give up placing better and go back to netting worse rewards so I can enjoy the game again. That’s how much is sucks playing him. 

ThaRoadWarrior

^same. I’ve actually been unable to hit 2k in sim 2 out of the last 3 seasons because I couldn’t break through it, and I’m barely a 5* player. It’s also no longer a guarantee I can hit 900 in regular PvP, and as often as not I’m just 575 and out because I don’t want to deal with the hassle of it. I could have made a better effort to hit 75 wins in PvP, but it just didn’t work out with my schedule last season.

”real” 5* players I assume have more options for brute forcing through it than I do as a transitioner with just 2 not especially synergistic champs and no usable bishop of my own.

BigSoftieFF

ThaRoadWarrior said:

^same. I’ve actually been unable to hit 2k in sim 2 out of the last 3 seasons because I couldn’t break through it, and I’m barely a 5* player. It’s also no longer a guarantee I can hit 900 in regular PvP, and as often as not I’m just 575 and out because I don’t want to deal with the hassle of it. I could have made a better effort to hit 75 wins in PvP, but it just didn’t work out with my schedule last season.

”real” 5* players I assume have more options for brute forcing through it than I do as a transitioner with just 2 not especially synergistic champs and no usable bishop of my own.

I’m quite sure the only reason I do is cause I can mirror with my own Grishop. I have a few more 5*’s than you but I’m still a “little” in general.

Its absolutely no fun mirroring so I can only imagine what it’s like not being able to.

DAZ0273

justsing said:

DAZ0273 said:

Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

It's not about whether people are still able to hit 2000 or not. Like others have said in their posts, it's simply NOT FUN. Bishop's mechanism triggered by 5* match damage is not fun. It's broken and OP. And because he's so annoying in 5* land, tons of people float with Bishop + another 5* such as JJ or 5trange. 

Just a note in general, I really don't appreciate people who aren't in 5* land themselves discounting the opinions of actual 5* players re: Bishop. If you're a 5* player who disagrees about nerfing Bishop, all the power to you. I respect that there are different opinions out there. But for those of you who haven't had to deal with Bishop in 5* PVP, please don't tell us how we should feel or that we're wrong for feeling what we feel. 

As I am being quoted I assume this is directed my way despite the "general". So,  I hope I haven't disregarded any 5* players feelings and have acknowledged various places how I can see the issue but if your answer to this debate is "shut up" to anybody with an opinion that doesn't meet your criteria in my opinion that isn't really constructive.

Zeofar

HoundofShadow said:

After over 20 pages, both sides can only agree to disagree.

Therefore, a middle ground would be to create a 4* or 5* that can stun characters who gain aps that are not stolen from opponents' ap pools passively.

For every ap gain passively that is not stolen, stun that character for that amount of turn. 

Another take: After over 20 pages, there's not much agreement on any "side" over what aspects of Bishop are a problem and when those problems manifest, so talking about middle ground or compromises is a bit laughable. You can scan through the thread and see contrasting attitudes like

• The problem is Bishop vs 5-stars
• The problem is Bishop + Gritty
• The problem is Bishop paired with 2 5-stars
• The problem is Bishop hits back too hard
  
• The problem is Bishop stuns too fast
• The problem is Bishop generates too much AP
  
• The problem is Bishop has no counters
• The problem is Bishop's counters make you a target
• The problem is Bishops counters are too hard to get
• The problem is Bishop is badly broken and OP
• The problem is Bishop feels bad to play with and against
• The problem is Bishop is a 4-star
• It's too hard to win against Bishop
  
• It's never been about winning. Never. Ever. Never. (???)

It's not exactly that ALL of these opinions are contradictory or mutually exclusive (though some are), just that there isn't actually a clear, productive direction that this discussion is going in. I'm not sure if thoughts are just this varied or if people are feeling that piling on with anything that pops into their head somehow makes an airtight case. For me though, I'm not seeing a preponderance of evidence that Bishop is ruining the game nor that there is a generally supported problem-solution concept.

What strikes me is that there tend to be hate threads for every character or team that isn't a dead-weight HP pool on defense, even when those characters aren't nearly the problem they're made out to be. To be perfectly frank, I'm not sure that there is actually much useful feedback the devs could currently take out of this thread beyond general discontent over a strong character. If people are of the mind that Bishop is indeed a special case and would like to demonstrate that there IS something of value to be taken out of this conversation, I think it would be incredibly helpful to work toward these kinds of goals:

1. Making cogent arguments establishing that Bishop is actually bad for the game. Personally, I don't take it for granted that a utility/defense 4-star seeing play in the 5-star meta is inherently unhealthy. An entire team of 4-stars competing against full 5-star teams would be another issue, but I don't accept that the game's power hierarchy is compromised just because 4-stars are sometimes useful alongside 5-stars. Moreover, unlike characters that I believe actually negatively impact the game, it seems to me that Bishop offers potential to expand the meta by increasing the value of certain characters and mechanics; if you don't agree with this, perhaps explain why this is not the case or how the bad outweighs the good. Lastly, with or without Bishop so far, the endgame is pretty much the definition of degenerate, with little reason to deviate from 2 core teams. If Bishop can be effectively removed from the metagame, is there an actual improvement that will be seen, or is it just a choice between two bad states?
   Side note here: Bishop + Gritty defensive teams have been presented as a major issue in "Nerf Bishop" topics, but Gritty alone has already been the subject of hate threads. If Bishop is truly the problem piece, I think there needs to be a non-chronological argument (Bishop is the most recent addition, therefore he's the biggest offender) as to why, in a game where speed is thought to be the most useful quality a team can have, that a character whose main contribution is slowing the match down is a bigger issue than characters whose strength is accelerating the match.
   
2. Finding agreement over what the problematic part of Bishop's kit is. "All of it, every part" rings extremely hollow and doesn't inspire faith that any particular solution would be well received. Break down the mechanics of what's wrong with Bishop. What does Bishop contribute to a match that leads to a loss, moreso than other characters? If the issue is the stunning, why are existing anti-stun mechanics insufficient to stay off that path to defeat? I fully doubt that Bishop is somehow KOing 5-stars singlehandedly, so walk further to what happens after Bishop does his "thing" and explain why is it inescapable or unfair.
3. Deciding whether a counter is truly an appealing solution, especially considering the dim view that is taken to characters that already interact with Bishop's mechanics. Bishop counters are described as painting a target on your back; in other contexts BSSM is usually described just the same way, yet is still considered a pretty sufficient counter for Gritty (and has even been brought up in this thread as an example of a functional counter). What's the material difference here, and how would "another" counter for Bishop change this dynamic and actually satisfy complaints?
   

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

^same. I’ve actually been unable to hit 2k in sim 2 out of the last 3 seasons because I couldn’t break through it, and I’m barely a 5* player. It’s also no longer a guarantee I can hit 900 in regular PvP, and as often as not I’m just 575 and out because I don’t want to deal with the hassle of it. I could have made a better effort to hit 75 wins in PvP, but it just didn’t work out with my schedule last season.

”real” 5* players I assume have more options for brute forcing through it than I do as a transitioner with just 2 not especially synergistic champs and no usable bishop of my own.

I'm genuinely surprised you are experiencing so much Bishop in regular PvP, what sort of teams do you see him on? Shield Sim has been a problem for a long time, the wall of Grittyshop was Grockadusa before, so whilst 5* players are rightly aggrieved at Bishop's unfair mechanics, I guess I have just become accustomed because Shield Sim has been a horrible struggle my entire time playing with a wall of various meta impeding any progress!  Believe it or not I do have the same struggles because I like to run Thor or JJ in Shield Sim and run into the same wall everybody else does - sometimes it has Bishop, it always has Gritty or Kitty + special tile spammer. I have to run Bishop on offence which costs me health packs and I don't even have a functioning Gritty to help. So removing Bishop might solve your problem but not mine because fighting Gritty is no fun either. Still I'd be willing to support it happening simply on the basis that newer 5* players don't have other options and it just seems mostly unfair on such players like you if you can't reach 2000 with Champed 5*. That was the actual purpose of my original question - is this impeding progress? When the scoreboards say otherwise you can appreciate that it seems a bit of a mixed issue but if you genuinely can't get there, something should be done.

DAZ0273

OJSP said:

DAZ0273 said:

justsing said:
But for those of you who haven't had to deal with Bishop in 5* PVP, please don't tell us how we should feel or that we're wrong for feeling what we feel. 

but if your answer to this debate is "shut up" to anybody with an opinion that doesn't meet your criteria in my opinion that isn't really constructive.

I think the response to your quote was just the first paragraph, the second one is more towards everyone.

From the last sentence, I didn't read that as telling people to shut up. I read that as asking for empathy. Telling someone how they should feel is considered verbal abuse https://goodmenproject.com/sex-relationships/why-its-really-covert-verbal-abuse-when-someone-is-telling-you-how-you-should-feel-dg/ (Add: despite it's under the section of sex-relationships, the article didn't actually talk about sex)

OK, cool. Hopefully you can understand how it might have been seen that way. I have also been told in this very thread how my feelings about Kitty are wrong, so I am not about to do the same to the 5* players. Bishop is an issue for them but I feel that there are degrees in terms of how much an issue judging by responses seen on the forum. Still an issue though.

justsing

DAZ0273 said:

justsing said:

DAZ0273 said:

Lightning Rounds are weird though. No offence but Pick 3 PvP will rarely effect your season so can you, hand on your heart really say you are still not hitting 2000 in Sim or achieving what you want in PVP? Considering most PvP is "fixed" at high levels of play via grills if those players are putting out Bishop "grills" then I am going to be fairly surprised. 

It's not about whether people are still able to hit 2000 or not. Like others have said in their posts, it's simply NOT FUN. Bishop's mechanism triggered by 5* match damage is not fun. It's broken and OP. And because he's so annoying in 5* land, tons of people float with Bishop + another 5* such as JJ or 5trange. 

Just a note in general, I really don't appreciate people who aren't in 5* land themselves discounting the opinions of actual 5* players re: Bishop. If you're a 5* player who disagrees about nerfing Bishop, all the power to you. I respect that there are different opinions out there. But for those of you who haven't had to deal with Bishop in 5* PVP, please don't tell us how we should feel or that we're wrong for feeling what we feel. 

As I am being quoted I assume this is directed my way despite the "general". So,  I hope I haven't disregarded any 5* players feelings and have acknowledged various places how I can see the issue but if your answer to this debate is "shut up" to anybody with an opinion that doesn't meet your criteria in my opinion that isn't really constructive.

Like OJSP said, the first paragraph was directed at you, but the second wasn't. I just didn't want to double post lol

Basically, I'm sick of people who don't have champed 5*s telling me to suck it up and just use 4*s / Silver Surfer / Doc Ock / whatever other "solution" they think will work. Bishop is not a problem in 4* land, and the Bishop teams that you encounter with 4* MMR are not comparable to the Bishop teams you encounter with 5* MMR.