Nerf Bishop

tiomono

HoundofShadow said:

The common complain about SPBB back when he was suggested as a counter to Gritty is that it's impossible to champ him because he's in the Classic store of Doom.

This complain applies to Silver Surfer and Dr Ock who were  pitched as counters to Bishop because the two of them can't be stunned. 

It's not that there isn't any counter. There is or are. But, the counters are not meta characters. They put a mark on your back.

It's also impossible to cover kitty then. It is not impossible to cover characters in classics. It's just slow. But special offers and release stores help that issue for people that want to target specific characters (although a faster/more frequent rotation would be great).

Rng is rng. I am not a top 100 player and I have 9 5* champs. Bssm is one of them.

Back on topic. We have counters to gritty. Who counters bishop and should he be nerfed due to lack of counterplay in the 5* tier?

tiomono

HoundofShadow said:

Regardless of whether you do a match-3 or 4, it's going to trigger Bishop. You need a Match-4 to put a tentacle tile to make Dr Ock immune. I'm aware of that. 

Based on the two replies above, I would say there are counters but what you want is a 5* counter that won't put a target on your back. You want a character who is considered top tier and can counter Gritty+Bishop. 

Because there isn't any at all at the moment, therefore; the easiest way is to nerf Bishop.

No. Gritty has counter options in both 4* and 5* play. Bishop does not. Surfer is not a counter to a character that doubles your damage and earns more ap than you on your own turn. The stun is not the only thing that bishop does.

Sm0keyJ0e

HoundofShadow said:

Based on the two replies above, I would say there are counters but what you want is a 5* counter that won't put a target on your back. You want a character who is considered top tier and can counter Gritty+Bishop. 

Because there isn't any at all at the moment, therefore; the easiest way is to nerf Bishop.

No, I don't want a counter. In my opinion, something that countered Bishop, particularly at the 5* level, would be further game-breaking. I have yet to see a character design that would counter Bishop but not break other parts of the game or render "stunners" useless.

Also I don't care about Kitty or 4* Rocket. They are inconsequential and have more than enough counters in the game. They are not the problem and not the point of this thread.

Bishop needs to be fixed.

HoundofShadow

That depends on

1) what the definition of counter is to you 

2) are you trying to counter the single defining character of the team or the team as a whole?

3) what levels  your counter(s) and the level of your enemy team are.

In a team of Gritty + Bishop:

SMBB automatically nullify Gritty.

Silver Surfer or Dr Ock (under a certain condition) are immune to Bishop's stun. Silver Surfer has true heal while Dr Ock has a 6ap repeater that does team burst heal.

If not, 

Black Panther could be another. since Black Panther was part of the meta, I believe many would have him at high level. Let him take damage, he negates 60% of the damage, stun himself for 2 turns and hit back. Black Panther should be able to 1HKO a low level champed Bishop after a couple of match damage.  Again, this depends on the level of your opponent Bishop team.

Kitty will help you to take care of strike tiles by overriding them.

Then you can front OML/Silver Surfer to tank the damageor stun.

By then Bishop is dead and opponent Kitty has nothing to buff.

Bowgentle

HoundofShadow said:

Black Panther could be another. since Black Panther was part of the meta, I believe many would have him at high level. Let him take damage, he negates 60% of the damage, stun himself for 2 turns and hit back. Black Panther should be able to 1HKO a low level champed Bishop after a couple of match damage.  Again, this depends on the level of your opponent Bishop team.

Look.

If 5* players tell you that there is no 5* counter to Bishop, there is none.

Let's see.

Panther makes a match.
Gets stunned for 4 turns, because the higher stun overrides his own 2 turn stun.

Next turn Bishop jumps in front again, stunning the second 5* on your team.

That leaves you with Panther still stunned for 3 turns, your second 5 stunned for 4 turns, and your 3* alive and doing nothing at all.

Now whatever 5 is paired with enemy Bishop can wail on your team for 3 full turns.

Brilliant counter.

ThaRoadWarrior

Panther takes full damage while he's stunned, so in addition to being useless for 4 turns he is just going to eat whatever strike damage the rest of the team does right in the face. Surely I'm not the first person to think of it, but the only thing I can come up with is to let Danver5 throw a stunned ally in the air to override the stun with the Airborne condition. Who knows how reliable that even would be.

tiomono

HoundofShadow said:

That depends on

1) what the definition of counter is to you 

2) are you trying to counter the single defining character of the team or the team as a whole?

3) what levels  your counter(s) and the level of your enemy team are.

In a team of Gritty + Bishop:

SMBB automatically nullify Gritty.

Silver Surfer or Dr Ock (under a certain condition) are immune to Bishop's stun. Silver Surfer has true heal while Dr Ock has a 6ap repeater that does team burst heal.

If not, 

Black Panther could be another. since Black Panther was part of the meta, I believe many would have him at high level. Let him take damage, he negates 60% of the damage, stun himself for 2 turns and hit back. Black Panther should be able to 1HKO a low level champed Bishop after a couple of match damage.  Again, this depends on the level of your opponent Bishop team.

Kitty will help you to take care of strike tiles by overriding them.

Then you can front OML/Silver Surfer to tank the damageor stun.

By then Bishop is dead and opponent Kitty has nothing to buff.

Get your mind off gritty + bishop. That's only in sim. Or events where you pick all 3. 

Bishop is the problem. Bishop. Not gritty. Bishop. 

5* players cannot target him first or last. They cannot reliably make 2 match 3's in blue required for the cheapest stun (iceman) before he stuns them. They cannot make any match 3 without eating double the damage they just dealt and giving the enemy 5 blue. 

Doc ock cannot reliably get a match 4 on turn one or 2 to have a tentacle tile on the board. Or gain 6 green and fire his repeater before he gets stunned.

Panther is not going to get hit hard enough to negate the damage. And vs a bishop he will get stunned and then have to wait 4 turns before being able to hit back. At which point bishop has already stunned both of panthers allies and swung the match severely in his favor.

Surfer will stop the stun but not the 4k+ damage every turn plus the 5+ blue ap every turn on his own turn.

There is nothing a 5* player can reliably do to fight vs bishop except eat damage and get punished. Bishop is a flashbang grenade you throw at the enemy at the cost of a teamslot. He is OP in the 5* tier and needs an answer. Whether it's a counter or a nerf.

jp1

Wow, this horse has been dead for a long time. Don’t worry he will be nerfed into oblivion in short order. If they don’t do anything else reliably, taking away good stuff is their specialty.

The rockett

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone
Is the Dev team aware of these concerns?  Any questions or comments?  

Daredevil217

Polares said:

HoundofShadow said:

The common complain about SPBB back when he was suggested as a counter to Gritty is that it's impossible to champ him because he's in the Classic store of Doom.

This complain applies to Silver Surfer and Dr Ock who were  pitched as counters to Bishop because the two of them can't be stunned. 

It's not that there isn't any counter. There is or are. But, the counters are not meta characters. They put a mark on your back.

It is not just that, it is also that the counters are bad characters. Using those or any 4 to counter Bishop opens you into a world of hurt, as any other 5 player will attack you right away (specially everybody going away from Bishop teams).

Having to use sub-optimal chars to counter a 4 in 5 land is a big problem.

I can only speak for myself, but I’m excited to use BSSM as a Gritty counter once I champ him (he’s close!). He 100% shuts them down. Yes he sucks. But you know what? Grocket is awful without his strikes and Kitty is awful with nothing to buff. They are just meat bags for their team the same way Spidey is for yours. So the way I see it, it is now your other two characters vs. their other one. I like those odds. Just play another match after, and boom, you’re fine on defense. He’s the Kraven of the 5* tier. A niche counter character that sucks on offense, is super easy to kill, shines in his niche but is useless otherwise. I see a lot of BSSM in the wild. Because he is SO good at his niche even if he does nothing else. So you’re willing to have a **** team on D for awhile as a trade off. 

Surfer is not nearly as good of a counter to Bishop because he doesn’t stop Bishop from stunning, gathering AP, or dealing massive damage for doing nothing but taking match damage. Your other characters can still get stunned, the AP can still be used elsewhere (think Gambattery), and the free damage is still there.

If only BSSM himself took 100% less strike tile damage, meaning he had to tank, (rather than protecting the whole team from strikes), he’d be more akin to Surfer. But as it stands I don’t put them in the same league. I will say they both have the problem of being old 5s trapped in dilution hell. Man I miss the special pop up stores. 

LLohm

Let me just bring something into focus.

13 4* vs 13 5* covers.

It is a chasm when it comes to the ease both are acquired.

lets keep that in mind when people talk about 5* counters.

i agree whole heartedly with Smokey that if a true 5* bishop counters appears, it will utterly be game breaking.

solve a problem with a problem?

ThaRoadWarrior

BSSM seems like he wouldn't be the worst counter to Bishop either, since he is effectively stun-immune (invisible) as long as one of your other characters is stunned, right?

*edit - just read the description again (my bssm is 3/1/0 so i don't use him), it's when an enemy is stunned. my bad

DAZ0273

The rockett said:

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone
Is the Dev team aware of these concerns?  Any questions or comments?  

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone if Bishop is nerfed can we please also at least address the Kitty Pryde yellow power issue as well that probably affects Waaaaaay more of your playerbase? Thank you.
 

CT1888

Daredevil217 said:

I can only speak for myself, but I’m excited to use BSSM as a Gritty counter once I champ him (he’s close!). He 100% shuts them down. Yes he sucks. 

BSSM and Daredevil shut down and destroy Gritty teams, you will have a great time, plus BSSM's blue once you have flipped their tiles with DD's purple is just delightful. He is a little bit more than his passive in that scenario.

Buff Surfer so he can shut do something about Bishop and not be a dead weight against everyone else. Higher match damage and health so he tanks more colours and doesn't die so quickly. Powers that stack up vs newer characters. Pipe dream, I know.
Sad face. 

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

The rockett said:

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone
Is the Dev team aware of these concerns?  Any questions or comments?  

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone if Bishop is nerfed can we please also at least address the Kitty Pryde yellow power issue as well that probably affects Waaaaaay more of your playerbase? Thank you.
 

Adress it with what? A 4 star counter? Like say prowler, sabertooth, thanos, kraven, magik, Emma (ha ha), dazzler,  juggernaut, mehulk, etc etc etc, that all give you special removal, steal, boardshake, resistance vs match damage etc etc you get the idea. 

Or maybe a 5 star counter like bssm, thorkoye (who actually out damage and out sustain gritty), or iceman with his cheap stun and damage mitigation.

The only kitties that are a problem in the 4 star tier are ones well covered. If they are not well covered they are easily countered by a large variety of strategies and characters.

And if they are well covered that player is progressing into 5* play and should have an easier time beating players that are still not progressing into 5* play. If you made it fully into 3* play and had a couple of 4*'s at 10+ covers you should be able to beat anything the 3* tier tosses at you easily. But 4* champ teams should be a struggle.

You would not expect to then transition into the 4* tier by champing a few 4's and have to figure out a strategy to deal with a 3* character because he makes every match for you a gamble would you? This is what's happening to the 5* players with bishop.

The rockett

LLohm said:

Let me just bring something into focus.

13 4* vs 13 5* covers.

It is a chasm when it comes to the ease both are acquired.

lets keep that in mind when people talk about 5* counters.

i agree whole heartedly with Smokey that if a true 5* bishop counters appears, it will utterly be game breaking.

solve a problem with a problem?

Llohm and Smokey are spot on.  You should not counter for a tier below you or everything will go sideways.  I think Bishop is like what 3* Gambait was, which took time to fix.  The Dev team didn’t understand the mechanics until it was too late.  Now they just need to fix it like they did the Gambait loophole with only 5 black covers. 

tiomono

LLohm said:

Let me just bring something into focus.

13 4* vs 13 5* covers.

It is a chasm when it comes to the ease both are acquired.

lets keep that in mind when people talk about 5* counters.

i agree whole heartedly with Smokey that if a true 5* bishop counters appears, it will utterly be game breaking.

solve a problem with a problem?

I have made a few suggestions for abilities that I do not feel would break the game that would directly deal with bishops ability to generate ap during an opponents turn by either stealing it immediately or something along those lines. That still gives him his damage pop and ability to fire his powers as normal. But just not generate gobs of ap when it's not his turn. This in no way nerfs bishop but gives players a character to use vs him that doesn't just fuel the fire.

Bowgentle

The rockett said:

LLohm said:

Let me just bring something into focus.

13 4* vs 13 5* covers.

It is a chasm when it comes to the ease both are acquired.

lets keep that in mind when people talk about 5* counters.

i agree whole heartedly with Smokey that if a true 5* bishop counters appears, it will utterly be game breaking.

solve a problem with a problem?

Llohm and Smokey are spot on.  You should not counter for a tier below you or everything will go sideways.  I think Bishop is like what 3* Gambait was, which took time to fix.  The Dev team didn’t understand the mechanics until it was too late.  Now they just need to fix it like they did the Gambait loophole with only 5 black covers. 

Bishop is nothing like Gambatt, sadly.

Running Gambatt was the most fun I had in MPQ in at least 4 years.
Bishop is a nightmare to play with AND against.

They're both indications of the devs being out of touch with interactions in the actual gameplay, though.
So in that regard you're correct, they're the same.

LLohm

tiomono said:

LLohm said:

Let me just bring something into focus.

13 4* vs 13 5* covers.

It is a chasm when it comes to the ease both are acquired.

lets keep that in mind when people talk about 5* counters.

i agree whole heartedly with Smokey that if a true 5* bishop counters appears, it will utterly be game breaking.

solve a problem with a problem?

I have made a few suggestions for abilities that I do not feel would break the game that would directly deal with bishops ability to generate ap during an opponents turn by either stealing it immediately or something along those lines. That still gives him his damage pop and ability to fire his powers as normal. But just not generate gobs of ap when it's not his turn. This in no way nerfs bishop but gives players a character to use vs him that doesn't just fuel the fire.

I agree with some of the suggestions given like giving Bishop a wider berth when it comes to jumping in front or not jumping at all or a reduction on the blue generation.

these all amount to a nerf though and that’s what is being driven now which I am in favour of.

Personally, I am not seeking utter destruction of bishop. I enjoy the 4* game very much still and usually acquire a champed new release to play around with as soon as is possible and to show some support to the devs. Have been doing so for more than 3 years so I have vested interests in keeping each release in their pristine design as much as possible.

It is unfortunate that history has shown that small adjustments don’t sit well with the devs and they tend to be heavy handed.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

The rockett said:

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone
Is the Dev team aware of these concerns?  Any questions or comments?  

Hey @Brigby @Demiurge_Anthony @LakeStone if Bishop is nerfed can we please also at least address the Kitty Pryde yellow power issue as well that probably affects Waaaaaay more of your playerbase? Thank you.
 

Adress it with what? A 4 star counter? Like say prowler, sabertooth, thanos, kraven, magik, Emma (ha ha), dazzler,  juggernaut, mehulk, etc etc etc, that all give you special removal, steal, boardshake, resistance vs match damage etc etc you get the idea. 

Or maybe a 5 star counter like bssm, thorkoye (who actually out damage and out sustain gritty), or iceman with his cheap stun and damage mitigation.

The only kitties that are a problem in the 4 star tier are ones well covered. If they are not well covered they are easily countered by a large variety of strategies and characters.

And if they are well covered that player is progressing into 5* play and should have an easier time beating players that are still not progressing into 5* play. If you made it fully into 3* play and had a couple of 4*'s at 10+ covers you should be able to beat anything the 3* tier tosses at you easily. But 4* champ teams should be a struggle.

You would not expect to then transition into the 4* tier by champing a few 4's and have to figure out a strategy to deal with a 3* character because he makes every match for you a gamble would you? This is what's happening to the 5* players with bishop.

I bet you are a 5* player who uses Kitty all the time and you think that means you can dismiss the lower tier play based on that. Why can't I ask for a Kitty nerf when you ask for Bishop? You ask for Bishop nerf, I will ask for Kitty nerf. You can keep telling me how much you deserve to keep Kitty and I will keep telling you the opposite. And if there was a player vote over MPQ based in which is the bigger issue, I bet you that nerfing Kitty would win because Bishop is a 5* issue and nobody else gives a stuff. As long as there is R4G there are other speed teams for 4* and ThorKoye is the 5* way to go. Die Kitty, die.