Nerf Bishop

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  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    2 possible and easy fixes without destroying him. 

    1.) Significantly up his damage as he scales to trigger his blue AP gain.  There is no reason a level 370 Bishop should still be triggering his ability at 850 total damage, should be closer to 2 or 3K at that point.  This will still make him useful as match 4's from 5* or cascades will trigger him but normal match damage would not, unless you are talking about highly leveled 5*.  

    OR

    2.) Limit his blue AP gain to a maximum of 5 AP per turn.  This way he can still stun one character but won't be sitting on 30 blue AP after two turns.  


    I honestly believe the real problem isn't Bishop though, it is grocket.  

    You can beat Bishop fairly easily if you bring your own 4* (own Bishop, Vulture, Iceman, Gamora, etc) character to the match.  Yes it slows things down, which players don't like but you can collect AP and take Bishop out with 5* pretty fast. You then just need to reset your defensive team after fighting Bishop teams. The problem, from my experience, is when Bishop is paired with Gritty.  That particular team is very difficult to take out.  Of course there is a nerf Gritty thread there as well.  What is the common denominator, I actually believe Grocket is the problem over Kitty and Bishop.  He too is a 4* that really upends the balance and unlike Bishop, is even more impactful throughout all the levels of play, just look at the low level Gritty's that compete way above normal expectations.  The reason this team is too difficult to beat is that Grocket just doesn't give anyone the time to be able to beat Bishop, which is the fundamental design problem with the Gritty combo.  

    Here is the fix for Grocket: 

    He begins with 2 tiles on the board at the start of his match (passive).  His yellow also becomes an active power (ala Coulson etc) that costs 4 AP which places two more tiles on the board randomly.  

    He can still spam tiles quickly but now it takes a few turns (unless someone wants to bring AP boosts to the battle or use 4* Starlord).  The AI would take much longer to get tiles out and Gritty is no longer a big defense issue.  
  • 658_2
    658_2 Posts: 235 Tile Toppler


    As for the brainstorming session. I asked how to counter him as a 5* player  without Surfer pages ago and the only response I got was from a 4* player saying that “you actually have Surfer on my roster, stop misleading!”. Other than that, not one single suggestion
    on how to actually beat Bishop. 
    Ftr, I mentioned how to beat him on pg 12. It just requires max boosting (including +all, which is bought with hp), a champed Okoye, and a decent Sabretooth with 4 or 5 red, which is to say it’s an unreasonable combination  required. 

    Nerf Bishop. Just get rid of the jump to the front. Still works on offense.
  • ursopro
    ursopro Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Back to the Bishop nerfs discussion, leave grocket alone, kthxbai
  • statnut
    statnut Posts: 131 Tile Toppler
    I'm at 11 covers for Bishop, so I'm sure the nerf will be coming soon.
  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    Man if people hate Bishop now just wait until you throw Juggernaut into the mix. Anyway, he could definitely use a rework while still keeping him as a strong character to be feared, but not so much as an automatic skip. Here's my rework:



    Red: When Bishop's teammates take X amount of damage he jumps to the front and overwrites up to five enemy or basic tiles to be gun tiles. Matching the tiles away by the enemy team heals Bishop, matched by the player deals damage to the enemy.

    Blue: If Bishop takes X amount of damage he creates a repeater tile that generates blue AP.
    (10 AP) 3 turn stun that also removes enemy gun/protect tiles from the board each turn.

    Yellow: (9 AP) Creates 2 protect tiles for every gun tile on the board.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    I agree that it's really a rocket problem, not a bishop problem.  Rocket has been an issue for forever, kitty just makes it worse.  Bishop was designed to counter rocket teams, hence rocket being the problem.  Easy fix for him is to have him make tiles passively like daken or valkyrie or 5* daredevil or something, not just drop a million strikes on turn 1.  Bishop is more difficult because hes actually not that great other than his automatic stun in response to match damage and hitting back 2x for all the damage he has taken. Hed likely need his whole kit retooled.  Just not having him jump in front might work though.  Build up AP and nuke him in one turn so no hitting back or stunning.  4 star guys could still use him to counter rocket teams if he tanks for the team as well.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    In 5* tier it’s a Bishop problem not a Rocket problem at all. Any match three triggers him...any...all...
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    A_Wise_Man said:
    I agree that it's really a rocket problem, not a bishop problem.  Rocket has been an issue for forever, kitty just makes it worse.  Bishop was designed to counter rocket teams, hence rocket being the problem.  Easy fix for him is to have him make tiles passively like daken or valkyrie or 5* daredevil or something, not just drop a million strikes on turn 1.  Bishop is more difficult because hes actually not that great other than his automatic stun in response to match damage and hitting back 2x for all the damage he has taken. Hed likely need his whole kit retooled.  Just not having him jump in front might work though.  Build up AP and nuke him in one turn so no hitting back or stunning.  4 star guys could still use him to counter rocket teams if he tanks for the team as well.
    Rocket is not the problem, Rocket actually makes Bishop easier to beat.  The AI prioritizes using the most expensive ability and thus defaults to Rocket's blue over Bishop's.  You can bring your own Kitty, BSSM (or Sabretooth if you don't mind dropping a tier) to neutralize the strike tiles. 

    The problem is Bishop as the only blue user (Valk/Kitty) or with another blue stunner (Doctor Strange most commonly) your entire team ends up stunned and the AI has free reign over the board.  The four turn stun is way too long, if it was 1 turn like Miles/BSSM it'd be much easier to play around.  
  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    shardwick said:
    Man if people hate Bishop now just wait until you throw Juggernaut into the mix. 
    I'm pretty sure juggernaut does not punish the enemy just for matching 3. I still feel like people are missing the point of why 5* players hate bishop.

    There is no other character that punishes the enemy and benefits themselves so severely on the enemies turn just for making match 3's.
    That's the thing though. Juggernaut has 90% defense against matches so he doesn't care what you do to him on your turn because he's going to brutally punish you no matter what on his turn. He does an aoe on every match 3 where his color is the strongest. He's the fuel of nightmares especially when you mix in someone like America who is throwing down criticals left and right, Juggs is hitting multiple cascades off of her and Bishop is providing more defense. Or Gritty and Juggs and you have to deal with those aoe's getting worse every single turn. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I too think the next 4* that is getting the call for nerf, if Bishop is nerfed, is 4* Juggernaut.

    Even though Juggernaut is going to tank only 2 colours (green and blue), a 450 Kitty is going to buff those R4G strike tiles by 3165 every turn. By the third turn, Juggernaut will deal 10k AoE.  Eat a blue and green cascades and that's 20k AoE for zero ap.

    Let that sink in for a moment: 20k AoE for 0 ap cost.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    HoundofShadow said:
    I too think the next 4* that is getting the call for nerf, if Bishop is nerfed, is 4* Juggernaut.

    Even though Juggernaut is going to tank only 2 colours (green and blue), a 450 Kitty is going to buff those R4G strike tiles by 3165 every turn. By the third turn, Juggernaut will deal 10k AoE.  Eat a blue and green cascades and that's 20k AoE for zero ap.

    Let that sink in for a moment: 20k AoE for 0 ap cost.
    Fortunately there's already a counter to 4* Juggernaut in 4* Quake.  Admittedly she won't be able to block all the damage if boosted by strikes in the way you describe, but if Bishop is taken out of the equation there are also counters to Gritty.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the potential unhappiness might be: By the time you take out all those strike tiles, your team will be half dead and 50% hp Thor will become 5% HP Thor each match.

    We might need to wait for Juggernaut to be in packs.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    HoundofShadow said:
    I think the potential unhappiness might be: By the time you take out all those strike tiles, your team will be half dead and 50% hp Thor will become 5% HP Thor each match.

    We might need to wait for Juggernaut to be in packs.
    Blacksuit spidey shuts down juggritty. Or you focus on blue and green so he cannot aoe you. Which by the way if you are using bssm you have a 6 blue stun. Thorkoye with bssm will destroy juggritty. Even bishop himself is going to tear juggs a new one. 5* match damage on a 4*? Welcome to 5* players point of this discussion.

    Who shuts down bishop? You cannot make match 3's without giving the enemy more ap than you collected and taking double the damage you dealt. Then they get a turn. 


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    The common complain about SPBB back when he was suggested as a counter to Gritty is that it's impossible to champ him because he's in the Classic store of Doom.

    This complain applies to Silver Surfer and Dr Ock who were  pitched as counters to Bishop because the two of them can't be stunned. 

    It's not that there isn't any counter. There is or are. But, the counters are not meta characters. They put a mark on your back.





  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    HoundofShadow said:
    The common complain about SPBB back when he was suggested as a counter to Gritty is that it's impossible to champ him because he's in the Classic store of Doom.

    This complain applies to Silver Surfer and Dr Ock who were  pitched as counters to Bishop because the two of them can't be stunned. 

    It's not that there isn't any counter. There is or are. But, the counters are not meta characters. They put a mark on your back.






    The nerf Juggs thread will come later after he's obtainable. That's a different thread for a different day.

    Back to Bishop--Doc Ock is not a counter. Do you even know how he works? You have to do a match-4 to get a tentacle tile on the board so he cannot be stunned. Do you know what happens when a 5* makes a match-4 against Bishop?!

    I will concede that Surfer is a possible counter to Bishop, but you already pointed out the flaw there. He's a 4-year-old toon that's severely outdated and mostly unobtainable by anyone new to the game in the last 2 years. You also need him to tank some colors to keep him in front, so he's gonna take some severe feedback damage every time you make a match. For those that do have him champed, he's likely waaaaay behind the power levels of most other 5*'s on that roster. Lastly, yes--you get a huge target on your back because Surfer is a pile of ****.

    He is not a viable counter. There isn't a viable counter. Keep trying.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    The common complain about SPBB back when he was suggested as a counter to Gritty is that it's impossible to champ him because he's in the Classic store of Doom.

    This complain applies to Silver Surfer and Dr Ock who were  pitched as counters to Bishop because the two of them can't be stunned. 

    It's not that there isn't any counter. There is or are. But, the counters are not meta characters. They put a mark on your back.





    It is not just that, it is also that the counters are bad characters. Using those or any 4 to counter Bishop opens you into a world of hurt, as any other 5 player will attack you right away (specially everybody going away from Bishop teams).

    Having to use sub-optimal chars to counter a 4 in 5 land is a big problem.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    Regardless of whether you do a match-3 or 4, it's going to trigger Bishop. You need a Match-4 to put a tentacle tile to make Dr Ock immune. I'm aware of that. 

    Based on the two replies above, I would say there are counters but what you want is a 5* counter that won't put a target on your back. You want a character who is considered top tier and can counter Gritty+Bishop. 

    Because there isn't any at all at the moment, therefore; the easiest way is to nerf Bishop.

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