Nerf Bishop

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  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    To be fair, I have dual 5* MMR, and I don't have functional Oc (1/0/2) or Surfer (2/1/3), nor do I have a BSSM that works (3/1/0). This situation is far from hypothetical.

    Not trying to get at you, @DAZ0273, just wanted to say that's a real cautionary tale that I am personally living.
    I have at no point said it was. The 5* players have my Bishop related sympathies.


  • justsing
    justsing Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2019
    jp1 said:
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
    This is not about health packs. I readily use health packs whenever I need to. This is about overly OP characters that are not fun to play. 

    Gritty is enough to take on pretty much all 5* A teams. You don't need Bishop. Not having Bishop just means you can't float higher without getting hit. I'm perfectly okay with that. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    justsing said:
    jp1 said:
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
    This is not about health packs. I readily use health packs whenever I need to. This is about overly OP characters that are not fun to play. 

    That is honestly how I feel about Kitty. I am not going to rehash the thread but the rules didn't seem to apply about complaints about her which is a shame but the way it goes, we were just told that Kitty isn't an issue, the end.

    I recognise the issues with Bishop for the 5* tier and they are indeed something that is obviously not fun but I have to say the non reciprocal nature of this thread towards the 4* tier and our Kitty woes has massively dampened my good will in supporting any Bishop nerf. 

    Hopefully you guys get a fix ASAP but this thread has been a fairly disappointing experience on these forums. 


  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    That’s my point exactly. The 4* tier is likely much larger player base that will take the hit. Meanwhile, Bishop is an inconvenience to 5* players...not an impossible obstacle. 

    I dont begrudge anyone their opinion. Mine is that he should be left alone, and so should everyone else unless they are buffing  someone who stinks.

    I guess for perspective I’m currently 1 cover away from 5* champs 10 and 11. With 85 percent of the top to mid/top tier being in my champ roster.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:

    None of that is my point. The poster states "How do I as a 5* player with no Ock/Surfer beat Bishop?" - I just pointed out that this poster DOES have Ock and Surfer so his point is a bit confusing, no? He has the defence he claims he doesn't! Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you! Then he replies to me and all out attacks me claiming I offer this as my "only suggestion" and otherwise talking about stuff I never even commented on! No, I offered no suggestions whatsoever, just an honest point that you can't really claim you don't have Ock and Surfer when in fact you do!
    You are really derailing the thread here but I’ll concede and word it differently if it will help us get back on track.

    How does a 5* player with no viable Ock/Surfer beat Bishop (and teammates)?

    “Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you!”

    Again, I didn’t ask how do I stop Bishop from stunning me. I asked how to beat Bishop as a 5* player (I didn’t think Id have to spell out that I want to beat him AND his teammates). You admit that you don’t know if the defense I have is good.  If the defense I have is not good, then it is fact not a defense. If I had more than 9 covers on Surfer (5 in black sadly) I’d champ him and run him, but I don’t. As it stands, his health pool at nine covers makes him dead in a few turns, the “defense” is then gone, and Bishop is back to doing Bishop things in what is now a 3 on 2 match. This is a good defense to you? You think just because Surfer is on my roster I have “the cure”, but I’m guessing you don’t understand how undercovered 5s work, especially 1st gen ones who have lower health and match damage even when champed.  For Ock it’s the same deal only he has to luck into a match 4 turn 1 and protect his tentacle tile to avoid Bishop’s wrath. 
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rod5 said:
    jp1 said:
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
    It may seem so, but it’s not. Any 5* will trigger the passive, nothing to do with Thorkoye. Even a mirror match is a disaster -  I have a champed Kitty, 370 Grocket and 300+ Bishop and that is possibly worse than any Thorkoye. 

    And yes I have tried Surfer/Ock/BSSM...like anyone else who’s been around a while will know, these guys don’t have enough firepower to take down that team in enough time before you’re all dead.

    The only way to sensibly deal with it is to remove base match damage from the passive trigger...feel like broken record but I’m just going to keep on banging the freaking drum on this.
    My other post was at the same time as yours, not in response to. 

    I’ll just say my experience has been different. But, again I don’t begrudge anyone else their opinion on the matter.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:

    None of that is my point. The poster states "How do I as a 5* player with no Ock/Surfer beat Bishop?" - I just pointed out that this poster DOES have Ock and Surfer so his point is a bit confusing, no? He has the defence he claims he doesn't! Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you! Then he replies to me and all out attacks me claiming I offer this as my "only suggestion" and otherwise talking about stuff I never even commented on! No, I offered no suggestions whatsoever, just an honest point that you can't really claim you don't have Ock and Surfer when in fact you do!
    You are really derailing the thread here but I’ll concede and word it differently if it will help us get back on track.

    How does a 5* player with no viable Ock/Surfer beat Bishop (and teammates)?

    “Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you!”

    Again, I didn’t ask how do I stop Bishop from stunning me. I asked how to beat Bishop as a 5* player (I didn’t think Id have to spell out that I want to beat him AND his teammates). You admit that you don’t know if the defense I have is good.  If the defense I have is not good, then it is fact not a defense. If I had more than 9 covers on Surfer (5 in black sadly) I’d champ him and run him, but I don’t. As it stands, his health pool at nine covers makes him dead in a few turns, the “defense” is then gone, and Bishop is back to doing Bishop things in what is now a 3 on 2 match. This is a good defense to you? You think just because Surfer is on my roster I have “the cure”, but I’m guessing you don’t understand how undercovered 5s work, especially 1st gen ones who have lower health and match damage even when champed.  For Ock it’s the same deal only he has to luck into a match 4 turn 1 and protect his tentacle tile to avoid Bishop’s wrath. 
    You could have saved us all a lot of time by just clarifying your point straight off. Not having Ock and Surfer formed the crux of your argument, at no point did you say not having a champed Ock and Surfer. If you start off from a position of misrepresentation then it is hardly surprising when your point gets lost.

    Anyway, I will "derail" this thread no more although as it seems to be still about Bishop, counters to him etc and not giant penguins then I think you might be straying back into  misleading territory...
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
    Jonny, I disagree.  I have used PHX/SS/DD/GG/Thanos/ BP/OML/Dr S/Loki/ BB/ Gambit (yes I never sold when he was nerfed), HE, Spidey, Arch, Cap (both), IM46, SL, Wasp (LOL), BW and BSSM in many different combos and it is still the same result.  You have to get rid of the strike tiles before you get 20,000 damage on 1 match 3.  While there is some combos that work, Bishop still gets triggered on ANY match 3 unless you are picking an off color match, but that isn’t gonna get him off the board for you to go after Gritty then.  
  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
    My Bishop is only at Level 275.  I find him a bit squishy and, especially when paired with Rocket, that's two squishy characters to play with.   I have Bishop at 5/5/3.  Is that the optimal for him to run with Gritty?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I have a 6/4/1 Okoye at 405, so she's decently functional, but my 2/0/2 Gladiathor is useless. This isn't a Thorkoye problem; good Bishops trigger every strong-colored match 3 (certainly match 4+) on both GE Doom and Ghost Rider (my 2 5* champs) even in the absence of power adders or crits on the board. 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:

    None of that is my point. The poster states "How do I as a 5* player with no Ock/Surfer beat Bishop?" - I just pointed out that this poster DOES have Ock and Surfer so his point is a bit confusing, no? He has the defence he claims he doesn't! Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you! Then he replies to me and all out attacks me claiming I offer this as my "only suggestion" and otherwise talking about stuff I never even commented on! No, I offered no suggestions whatsoever, just an honest point that you can't really claim you don't have Ock and Surfer when in fact you do!
    You are really derailing the thread here but I’ll concede and word it differently if it will help us get back on track.

    How does a 5* player with no viable Ock/Surfer beat Bishop (and teammates)?

    “Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you!”

    Again, I didn’t ask how do I stop Bishop from stunning me. I asked how to beat Bishop as a 5* player (I didn’t think Id have to spell out that I want to beat him AND his teammates). You admit that you don’t know if the defense I have is good.  If the defense I have is not good, then it is fact not a defense. If I had more than 9 covers on Surfer (5 in black sadly) I’d champ him and run him, but I don’t. As it stands, his health pool at nine covers makes him dead in a few turns, the “defense” is then gone, and Bishop is back to doing Bishop things in what is now a 3 on 2 match. This is a good defense to you? You think just because Surfer is on my roster I have “the cure”, but I’m guessing you don’t understand how undercovered 5s work, especially 1st gen ones who have lower health and match damage even when champed.  For Ock it’s the same deal only he has to luck into a match 4 turn 1 and protect his tentacle tile to avoid Bishop’s wrath. 
    You could have saved us all a lot of time by just clarifying your point straight off. Not having Ock and Surfer formed the crux of your argument, at no point did you say not having a champed Ock and Surfer. If you start off from a position of misrepresentation then it is hardly surprising when your point gets lost.

    Anyway, I will "derail" this thread no more although as it seems to be still about Bishop, counters to him etc and not giant penguins then I think you might be straying back into  misleading territory...
    Not having a GOOD Surfer/Ock formed the crux.  Obviously if I had them in a place where they were viable, I wouldn’t have asked the question. Most 5* players have at least SOME covers of both characters, but that doesn’t mean that they are viable. You’re the only one who wasn’t getting this point. Myself and other posters tried to clarify why just having some covers isn’t a good defense.

    Heres an example you might get:

    4* player: How do I defeat Rocket without Sabretooth or Thanos? Honestly looking for help here. 

    Me: You said in another thread that you play to full progression every PVE so I know for a fact you DO have Sabretooth and Thanos! You said it yourself! Stop misrepresenting!

    4* player: Yeah I have them, but they’re so low covered that they die right away and provide no defense. 

    Me: yeah that’s not the point, you said you didn’t have them but you do!

    ^^^^
    At this point I’d be taking the thread off topic because instead of just answering the question as to how to beat Grocket without Sabretooth/Thanos, I’m focusing on trying to hit him with a “gotcha” moment (if they don’t have those characters built up enough to beat Grocket, then they may as well not have them). 

    Funny thing is, I clarified, redacted, restated, and you have STILL not given me a real answer as to a good counter team for those in 5* land who do not have a viable Surfer/Ock (and i question whether or not Ock is even viable due to his reliance on a match 4). 
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    jp1 said:
    To be frank about it, this really seems like a Thorkoye problem. No free leaps to the top without using health packs. 

    PVP is playable for me with my own Gritty/Bishop and Okoye/Sabretooth/Random third I bring. In fact I can usually place just as high or higher than before and definitely get further on progression. 

    If Thorkoye was my go to Meta I’d probably be miffed about Bishop too, but I still wouldn’t call for a nerf. Just saying.

    It would be nice to protect my particular interests at the expense of everyone else, but it just doesn’t feel like a fair move.
    Jonny, I disagree.  I have used PHX/SS/DD/GG/Thanos/ BP/OML/Dr S/Loki/ BB/ Gambit (yes I never sold when he was nerfed), HE, Spidey, Arch, Cap (both), IM46, SL, Wasp (LOL), BW and BSSM in many different combos and it is still the same result.  You have to get rid of the strike tiles before you get 20,000 damage on 1 match 3.  While there is some combos that work, Bishop still gets triggered on ANY match 3 unless you are picking an off color match, but that isn’t gonna get him off the board for you to go after Gritty then.  
    Fair enough. I still can’t support a nerf, but this thread has enough steam behind it that he will likely get nerfed...so there’s that.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:

    None of that is my point. The poster states "How do I as a 5* player with no Ock/Surfer beat Bishop?" - I just pointed out that this poster DOES have Ock and Surfer so his point is a bit confusing, no? He has the defence he claims he doesn't! Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you! Then he replies to me and all out attacks me claiming I offer this as my "only suggestion" and otherwise talking about stuff I never even commented on! No, I offered no suggestions whatsoever, just an honest point that you can't really claim you don't have Ock and Surfer when in fact you do!
    You are really derailing the thread here but I’ll concede and word it differently if it will help us get back on track.

    How does a 5* player with no viable Ock/Surfer beat Bishop (and teammates)?

    “Is it a good defence? I dunno but it stops Bishop stunning you!”

    Again, I didn’t ask how do I stop Bishop from stunning me. I asked how to beat Bishop as a 5* player (I didn’t think Id have to spell out that I want to beat him AND his teammates). You admit that you don’t know if the defense I have is good.  If the defense I have is not good, then it is fact not a defense. If I had more than 9 covers on Surfer (5 in black sadly) I’d champ him and run him, but I don’t. As it stands, his health pool at nine covers makes him dead in a few turns, the “defense” is then gone, and Bishop is back to doing Bishop things in what is now a 3 on 2 match. This is a good defense to you? You think just because Surfer is on my roster I have “the cure”, but I’m guessing you don’t understand how undercovered 5s work, especially 1st gen ones who have lower health and match damage even when champed.  For Ock it’s the same deal only he has to luck into a match 4 turn 1 and protect his tentacle tile to avoid Bishop’s wrath. 
    You could have saved us all a lot of time by just clarifying your point straight off. Not having Ock and Surfer formed the crux of your argument, at no point did you say not having a champed Ock and Surfer. If you start off from a position of misrepresentation then it is hardly surprising when your point gets lost.

    Anyway, I will "derail" this thread no more although as it seems to be still about Bishop, counters to him etc and not giant penguins then I think you might be straying back into  misleading territory...
    Not having a GOOD Surfer/Ock formed the crux.  Obviously if I had them in a place where they were viable, I wouldn’t have asked the question. Most 5* players have at least SOME covers of both characters, but that doesn’t mean that they are viable. You’re the only one who wasn’t getting this point. Myself and other posters tried to clarify why just having some covers isn’t a good defense.

    Heres an example you might get:

    4* player: How do I defeat Rocket without Sabretooth or Thanos? Honestly looking for help here. 

    Me: You said in another thread that you play to full progression every PVE so I know for a fact you DO have Sabretooth and Thanos! You said it yourself! Stop misrepresenting!

    4* player: Yeah I have them, but they’re so low covered that they die right away and provide no defense. 

    Me: yeah that’s not the point, you said you didn’t have them but you do!

    ^^^^
    At this point I’d be taking the thread off topic because instead of just answering the question as to how to beat Grocket without Sabretooth/Thanos, I’m focusing on trying to hit him with a “gotcha” moment (if they don’t have those characters built up enough to beat Grocket, then they may as well not have them). 

    Funny thing is, I clarified, redacted, restated, and you have STILL not given me a real answer as to a good counter team for those in 5* land who do not have a viable Surfer/Ock (and i question whether or not Ock is even viable due to his reliance on a match 4). 
    Commenting on what are good Bishop counters was never the point of my post. You have been having that conversation with yourself. Now you have come clean over your deception, I'm good, thanks.
  • huktonfonix
    huktonfonix Posts: 214 Tile Toppler
    I don't really care if Bishop gets nerfed or not.  History tells us that D3/Demi are bad at both designing balanced characters and planning appropriate nerfs, so there is no right answer.

    My problem with Bishop is the same problem I have with 2* Storm, 3* Hulk, CM, XFDP, new Iceman, etc - bad design.  A character that is less useful the higher you level him is a bad design.  A character that is harder to fight the stronger your roster is is a bad design.  This is true for every single character with damage-based triggers that scale poorly with levels.  Bishop might be the most egregious example because his triggered passive is so strong, but he didn't introduce the problem.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    I still think a 5* character that punishes enemy ap gain when it's not their turn would be a reasonable counter to bishop without being oppressive to a large chunk of other characters or the game as a whole.

    Like they could just steal that ap for your own team instead. Bishop generates 5 on your turn and this new character just steals it on the spot. 

    I sure wouldnt want to take bishop vs a character like that. But it takes no power away from bishop and what he does to certain prevalent "meta" characters. But gives the 5* tier a way to actually deal with a 4*.

    Lol needing to have a character designed to counter the tier below them should be a clear indicator of op.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I’d like a CD that shuts off passive powers. This *should* be Kitty-proof. It needs to be free or 1-match away from firing to actually be useful. Alternatively it can be a custom tile type that lives until it’s matched or destroyed like Chekhov’s gun and not renewed.

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