Gilded Lotus

Froggy

Well, as much as Karn is an amazing PW, I feel that Gilded Lotus needs some attention.

At 7 mana, you cast a colorless support that boosts every single mana gain (loyalty included) by +2. Got it there’s only 2 shields, but that’s some powerful stuff either way.

And this card is ranked as a rare... I’d say this is really a hidden masterpiece. This card alone could make the worst PWs insanely powerful...

Jace 1 for instance ends up with:
W +3
U +5
B +3
R +2
G +2
Loyalty +2

Now what about those PWs that ALREADY shad great mana gains?... This opens up the doors to using a lot of those very costly Ixalan cards we once complained about - and a lot more.

Thoughts on this?

khurram

Surely, increasing loyalty with gilded lotus and karn's ability is a bug, no?

khurram

Gilded lotus seems really good, I still have to test it though. It does kinda solve the issue about the origins PW having sucky Mana gains.

I'm sure people would still love it if it increased Mana gains by +1 instead of +2.

Froggy

Well, with Immortal Sun now in the hands of almost every player in the game (I would assume - or at least a LARGE portion of them), loyalty gems and Karn’s abilities have questionable use. Immortal Sun is seriously powerful and you could almost say OP, but it could bring serious balance to the playing field.

But this Lotus will ramp ALL mana gains of any PW you use. And it will stay in Standard for a long time now.

Tilwin90

I do agree that the lotus feels like a very powerful Corrupted Grafstone. It's not functionally equivalent of course, but it does cover a similar niche.

Sure, you have to draw it and play it, but depending on the planeswalker you are using, that ain't gonna be too bad.

I agree that it will pump up other "normally unusable" planeswalkers, simply because it gives them the mana gains buff they needed. I am especially looking here at Nissa1, Gideon1 and Lili1 (yes I know, she is great with discard).
It also seems like a welcome addition for
- Ob Nixilis (right now severely crippled thanks to the Immortal Sun),
- Dovin Baan (whose mana gains are not phenomenal, and if Teferi proves to be less parasitic and with better gains Dovin is history)
- Sorin (who suffers from the same issues with Dovin, except he's only worse since his mana gains rely on a board presence)

All in all I think this is a very interesting card, and at the power level we were kind of expecting from Octagon. Keep it up guys!

Volrak

Can anyone think of a reason to run any other mana/ramp support, in Standard or Legacy, in preference to Lotus?  (Apart from "I don't have it yet" or "I want to deliberately de-power my deck for some reason"?)

Grixis197

khurram said:

Surely, increasing loyalty with gilded lotus and karn's ability is a bug, no?

It says all mana bonuses not the colours so its not a bug 

khurram

Loyalty is not Mana, is it?
There are mana gems and there are loyalty gems.

Tilwin90

@khurram
To be honest I don't really see the purpose of that Has anyone noticed loyalty gems matching giving more loyalty with the "bonus" increased?

@Volrak
I do.
- I'd rather use regular ramp in green, and for green planeswalkers that already benefit from all that ramp, I see no reason to invest in pumping other colors.
- Combo decks still prefer to generate mana from colors without going for traditional ramp (like bolas spells). There, NP + deserts is still the more efficient approach.
- The new transform lands are quite potent for both standard and legacy. Storm the Vault remains my favorite (I wonder why), followed closely by the white one. (don't have Search for Azcanta yet) I also use the Bloodfast to sacrifice my own creatures.
- Very low cost decks (such as Crested Sunmane combo) don't really do a lot with all that mana.
- There are planeswalkers such as Koth who don't really care about anything but matching specific gems. There's no point in pumping red more than, but rather staying focused on color. Similar for Elspeth, though there I guess you could benefit more from the Gilded Lotus.

Don't get me wrong, it's a superb accelerator, and it will make those flat-lower-gains planeswalkres benefit a lot from it.
Wherever I could not find another more suitable accelerator I will probably give it a try (including Saheeli which seems quite downpowered in Standard since the bonker vehicles and Insidious Will are gone, Bolas or as I said above, Elspeth).
But I don't like to have too much ramp or mana acceleration in my decks and nothing else to do with all that mana.

Furks

@Volrak
Storm the vault is still insane in a support deck and Azor's gateway in a life gain deck. You'd probably still include guided lotus though. I can't think of a single deck that wouldn't benefit from it. (reminds me of good old skullclamp) 

khurram

Tilwin90 said:

Though to be honest I don't really see the purpose of that Has anyone noticed loyalty gems matching giving more loyalty with the "bonus" increased?

I think I noticed some extra loyalty trails.

Grixis197

Karn incrases the loyalty to with his 1st ability 

khurram

In the few games I played with it it got popped too quickly

Tilwin90

khurram said:

Loyalty is not Mana, is it?
There are mana gems and there are loyalty gems.

Really?! Have you seen how inconsistent wording is in this game? 

Furks

It 'might' be balanced though. At two shields it doesn't last very long. Also unlike gem-converter supports, it will never give you free lucky matches and it doesn't interfere with your opponent if they happen to be of an opposite color. It's definitely a strong card, but it's not game winning by itself. 

IM_CARLOS

I thought so as well: a gem for free … okay you have to purchase karn.

 

Yes only 2 shield but if you don’t use gem converter it can be very powerfull. 

Made some matches yesterday and it was very useful.

Kinesia

Furks said:

It 'might' be balanced though. At two shields it doesn't last very long. Also unlike gem-converter supports, it will never give you free lucky matches and it doesn't interfere with your opponent if they happen to be of an opposite color. It's definitely a strong card, but it's not game winning by itself. 

And if you try and use it _with_ gem converters it dies really fast. There are lots of decks it doesn't fit in.

I've tried it in a few and some it fits, some it doesn't.

Low level (<20) Karn _really_ benefits from it and other low walkers without gem converters will too, but a lot of my 60s have different plans.

FindingHeart8

Interesting.  Card just being released, it seems a bit early for this...I'm gonna sit this one out until enough players are complaining about it as much as they are Path of Discovery/Cycling, then I'll look into it

Mburn7

Froggy said:

Well, with Immortal Sun now in the hands of almost every player in the game (I would assume - or at least a LARGE portion of them), loyalty gems and Karn’s abilities have questionable use. Immortal Sun is seriously powerful and you could almost say OP, but it could bring serious balance to the playing field.

I would not say Immortal Sun is OP.  Sure its super powerful, but

A)  It doesn't really affect most decks when its played (unless you're built specifically around abilities like Ob)

  Its a 24 mana support.  Thats a pretty big commitment for a card that doesn't really help you THAT much.  And if you're including it you don't have a different card that might combo better in your deck.

This Lotus, on the other hand, will probably be a must-include it most decks.  It makes Koth, Samut, and Elspeth just stupidly powerful (no more downsides on off-color matches), and gives Gid Z, Sarkhan, Saheeli, Tezz 1, and the other low-but-evenly-spread gains walkers a super boost.  I'm probably buying Karn just for this.

babar3355

Volrak said:

Can anyone think of a reason to run any other mana/ramp support, in Standard or Legacy, in preference to Lotus?  (Apart from "I don't have it yet" or "I want to deliberately de-power my deck for some reason"?)

Well I can't imagine using any classic land card.  Not only are most of them unreliable, but the gem changing lands have a tendency to damage themselves.  

Furks said:

It 'might' be balanced though. At two shields it doesn't last very long. Also unlike gem-converter supports, it will never give you free lucky matches and it doesn't interfere with your opponent if they happen to be of an opposite color. It's definitely a strong card, but it's not game winning by itself. 

That has not been my experience. At least with Karn, I dropped it followed by Rx, Nissa's Revalation, etc and it typically survives quite well.  Being colorless, you have to be unfortunate for it to drop on a green gem.  As we are speaking I cast it with Samut on a blue gem.

Anyway, the fact that this card alone has a higher net mana gains (+10) than any PW besides Saheeli Rai (+11) tells me it is insanely powerful.  Outside of cycling decks, its hard to see where it wouldnt be a good fit.

Furks

Yes it's a strong card, but it's not on the same level as omnipotence or baral. Granted its also a rare and colorless.

I think the card is a fit in pretty much any deck but it's not going to be THE card that wins you the game. You're going to end up seeing this card A LOT but it won't be the defining card of the deck. It's not a build-around card.