Gilded Lotus

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

mrixl2520 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

hopefully my Karn for Crystals? thread didn't help incite this anger, if so I apologize but I definitely agree with you on this

Certainly not! This is all based on the nerf and my devalued purchase. 

That's good, I was just venting in that thread about a lot of the things you're posting on here so I wanted to check.  But yeah 80 crystals doesn't cover the issue.  They should've just increased the mana cost to cast Guilded Lotus but kept the ability the same.  Heck even at something like 17 cmc (which I believe is about the cost for Omniscience) Guilded Lotus would be amazing.

Did you actually get your 80 crystals?  I sent in a ticket but haven't heard back, and with the new system I don't even know if they got it yet

Update:  I did actually get the refund.  New system didn't tell me I had a response, I had to go check it myself.  That should probably be changed

DBJones

Yeah, the help center is broken right now. Clicking it once somehow crashed my app… twice. I didn't click it again, the app just crashed again after getting to the Activity Hub.

As to Gilded Lotus, I feel they absolutely need to make it playable again. Giving it back its original effect, and possibly increasing the cost (though they should give it one more shield in that case) would be my preference. Dropping the cost to 4-5 and giving it three shields would also make it usable.

As to Oktagon's interactiveness, they certainly are, though Brigby getting sick showed how much that's all him. What they seem to lack to me is competence in some areas, especially planning ahead and communicating those plans.
The event schedule for instance, Brigby's done a very good job of keeping us updated, but the actual planning seems chaotic, especially the overlapping coalition events on a holiday with no one really available to deal with bugs, which proved horrendous with all the server issues.

On the other side are which Planeswalkers are available for crystal purchase. It seems to be relatively well planned, but it's hard to tell when we can only ever see those plans a week in advance at most. Also, the current setup where half the Planeswalkers that rotate in stay in only half as long (or so, I have all but three so I can only check the d3 site to know) seems really weird to me.

tfg76

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

Coilbox

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the **** that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it ****. 

Mburn7

You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks.  Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.

Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card.  Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time.

FindingHeart8

Coilbox said:

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the tinykitty that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it tinykitty. 

He sounds formidable, but late-game formidable. (I don't own him yet so just speculating)

PvP wise I'm yet to face a Karn (outside of training grounds) that wasn't an easy win.

Coilbox

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the tinykitty that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it tinykitty. 

He sounds formidable, but late-game formidable. (I don't own him yet so just speculating)

PvP wise I'm yet to face a Karn (outside of training grounds) that wasn't an easy win.

i think, because of the nature of his skills, the AI wont make good use of him, on a human hands it really is formidable. Of course you need a good bunch of cards, but he is really really good. 

One of the (if not the most) favourites among all the pw's for me. 

FindingHeart8

Coilbox said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the tinykitty that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it tinykitty. 

He sounds formidable, but late-game formidable. (I don't own him yet so just speculating)

PvP wise I'm yet to face a Karn (outside of training grounds) that wasn't an easy win.

i think, because of the nature of his skills, the AI wont make good use of him, on a human hands it really is formidable. Of course you need a good bunch of cards, but he is really really good. 

One of the (if not the most) favourites among all the pw's for me. 

Fair 'nuff.  I'll take your word for it.  I just hope they release him sooner than later so I can get a test run myself

Gilesclone

His abilities don’t look that impressive, but they are powerful and cheap.  His mana starts at 5 (low) but with one single color use of ability 1 it’s 7 (same as Bolas, better than Kiora) use it on a colorless card and his mana is better than any PW except Saheeli.  AND he gets to put the card he needs most out of the next 3 in his hand.  Who needs cycling?
His other abilities are also very good.  And in PvE he can basically use any card you own.
Really, his only drawback is his incredibly high rune cost.

Gunmix25

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the tinykitty that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it tinykitty. 

He sounds formidable, but late-game formidable. (I don't own him yet so just speculating)

PvP wise I'm yet to face a Karn (outside of training grounds) that wasn't an easy win.

i think, because of the nature of his skills, the AI wont make good use of him, on a human hands it really is formidable. Of course you need a good bunch of cards, but he is really really good. 

One of the (if not the most) favourites among all the pw's for me. 

Fair 'nuff.  I'll take your word for it.  I just hope they release him sooner than later so I can get a test run myself

Know those itty bitty supports with one shield? Karn's 3rd buffs them up... making what should be an easy removal swap for the AI... into a bigger annoyance in your favor. That and if they pop he brings them back into your hand with some mana to boot. Karn is a top tier PW. Just gotta think outside the box with him. Biggest mistake I find that some players do with him is try to make "E.B.T.K.S." builds [Everything But The Kitchen Sink] … the synergy isn't there despite the cards being the biggest baddest hardcore cards in every color. A clunky deck is just that, a clunky deck, no matter how awesome those cards are that they put in it. I beat them in TG every single time.

Anyways, Karn is extremely good in the hands of an expert player... one I think you'd have no problems with when you get this Beast of Metaliciousness. lol

FindingHeart8

Gunmix25 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Coilbox said:

tfg76 said:

To be honest, I'm mostly disappointed about Karn himself. I just don't find him very useful, as in most cases he's basically a mono-colored planeswalker that takes 3 turns to get to decent mana gains.

huh?! Karn is probably the best option in almost every pve event node... his ability to draw what cards you want from the top3 on your library, get mana bonuses pumped, draw cards from the exile pile, and the ultimate  a 12/12 creature with a 'starfield' attached in the tinykitty that also shields up other supports makes him an absolute monster. . 

Regarding the lotus..  yeah, they just managed to send it to oblivion. A card that most likely would have a place in many decks they just made it tinykitty. 

He sounds formidable, but late-game formidable. (I don't own him yet so just speculating)

PvP wise I'm yet to face a Karn (outside of training grounds) that wasn't an easy win.

i think, because of the nature of his skills, the AI wont make good use of him, on a human hands it really is formidable. Of course you need a good bunch of cards, but he is really really good. 

One of the (if not the most) favourites among all the pw's for me. 

Fair 'nuff.  I'll take your word for it.  I just hope they release him sooner than later so I can get a test run myself

Know those itty bitty supports with one shield? Karn's 3rd buffs them up... making what should be an easy removal swap for the AI... into a bigger annoyance in your favor. That and if they pop he brings them back into your hand with some mana to boot. Karn is a top tier PW. Just gotta think outside the box with him. Biggest mistake I find that some players do with him is try to make "E.B.T.K.S." builds [Everything But The Kitchen Sink] … the synergy isn't there despite the cards being the biggest baddest hardcore cards in every color. A clunky deck is just that, a clunky deck, no matter how awesome those cards are that they put in it. I beat them in TG every single time.

Anyways, Karn is extremely good in the hands of an expert player... one I think you'd have no problems with when you get this Beast of Metaliciousness. lol

It sounds like you've put together a really good Karn deck, I hope I get lucky enough to face it soon

haha "Beast of Metaliciousness," I love it!  alright alright you won me over.  I'm excited for him!

babar3355

The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.

And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana.  This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match.  That is far too explosive, most people would agree.

But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc).  They went from around +5 to +15.  Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.

But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages.  Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.

So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great.  Total +14.

But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2.  For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.

It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. 

Thoughts?

Bil

   That could actually make sense as the old walkers need some love ... and lotus was a lot of love for them.
   However, even caped at +2, some already gifted walkers might get a huge boost from it ... Thus creating a gap anyway.
   However, its not as broken as the original version, and more playable than the new one  .... lets say it is an interesting idea.

bk1234

[MOD NOTE] Multiple threads merged. [//MOD NOTE]

Theros

+2 cap would do. imo prenef stats were not OP; it wouldn't make a difference for strong PWs like saheli that can use gems changers. Pws like kiora, and H2 do not benefit from prenerf lotus. even koth does not get that much benefit due to availability of more efficient red gem changers

Gunmix25

Theros said:

+2 cap would do. imo prenef stats were not OP; it wouldn't make a difference for strong PWs like saheli that can use gems changers. Pws like kiora, and H2 do not benefit from prenerf lotus. even koth does not get that much benefit due to availability of more efficient red gem changers

That and 3 of the above PW commonly use mass conversion supports that will often pop lotus quickly. Koth's 1st will do the same.

Sarahschmara

babar3355 said:

The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.

And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana.  This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match.  That is far too explosive, most people would agree.

But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc).  They went from around +5 to +15.  Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.

But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages.  Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.

So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great.  Total +14.

But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2.  For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.

It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. 

Thoughts?

This is incredibly insightful. I think a lot of the “legitimate” reasons for the nerf could be resolved with this one change. Whether or not it’s easy to implement (code) is another problem. 

Mark_Tedin

Gilded Lotus could cost 7 and own 3 shields to be playable ! The nerf was disproportionate.

Gunmix25

Dobby said:

babar3355 said:

The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.

And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana.  This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match.  That is far too explosive, most people would agree.

But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc).  They went from around +5 to +15.  Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.

But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages.  Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.

So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great.  Total +14.

But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2.  For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.

It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. 

Thoughts?

I have to say that the primary method of making old planeswalkers playable should be to rebalance them, and to quit it with the clearly unsustainable levels of power creep of new planeswalkers.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with @babar3355 's point that serious thought should be put into designing cards which are more powerful for mono-colored planeswalkers than they are for 2 or 3 colored ones. That's one thing I always like about the design of Corrupted Grafstone.. and something I find utterly baffling about the design of the new cycle of lands, like Hinterland Harbor. "Wait, this card won't be quite as powerful for Kiora as for Garruk, will it? Let's fix that problem!", say the designers. Why? For Christ's sake isn't Kiora powerful enough?

Honestly, card power levels need to be levelled out a bit. "Let's make a new Nissa's Pilgrimage!" say the designers. "Ok, how much should it cost?" say some other designers. "Well, the game needs to be slowed down a bit, so... 13 mana!". Come on, guys, it's been ages since you inherited this unholy mess of a game from Hibernum, you can stop making the same mistakes that they did now. There are a lot of numbers between 3 and 13.

Unsustainable levels of power creep? Unsustainable, how?

Anyways,  what facet are you focusing on that Oktagon is basically Hibernium? Because I don't see it. The levels of power creep now is nothing like AHK or HOR. That and about the only one Hibernium addressed was Baral. Oktagon has addressed issues that occurred and some were to the detriment of players here. I.e. lotus. Brigby has been trying to keep us in touch with the going ons and letting us know that the Devs are aware of the issues being fixed,  some related to power creep.

The synergy in DOM is very well done and because of this the cards push us to create unusual builds. A move towards better banking imho, right Shtobby? Anyways,  I see PW with unique abilities but teferi's ability requires a bit of specific building to to utilize his 3rd effectively,  but it's not a game ender.  Jaya isn't available yet and we all truly can only guess how her third will play out. Karn is great and the Devs wisely found a way to restrict his color choices in nodes for competition. What the Devs managed to do that few have seen yo point out is that these new PW are not parasitic.  An important trait much needed because we've many threads about how the devs made parasitic PW and how they're restricted for the long term.