Gunmix25 said::Know those itty bitty supports with one shield? Karn's 3rd buffs them up... making what should be an easy removal swap for the AI... into a bigger annoyance in your favor. That and if they pop he brings them back into your hand with some mana to boot. Karn is a top tier PW. Just gotta think outside the box with him. Biggest mistake I find that some players do with him is try to make "E.B.T.K.S." builds [Everything But The Kitchen Sink] … the synergy isn't there despite the cards being the biggest baddest hardcore cards in every color. A clunky deck is just that, a clunky deck, no matter how awesome those cards are that they put in it. I beat them in TG every single time.Anyways, Karn is extremely good in the hands of an expert player... one I think you'd have no problems with when you get this Beast of Metaliciousness. lol
Anyways, Karn is extremely good in the hands of an expert player... one I think you'd have no problems with when you get this Beast of Metaliciousness. lol
Doomstat said: Gunmix25 said::Know those itty bitty supports with one shield? Karn's 3rd buffs them up... making what should be an easy removal swap for the AI... into a bigger annoyance in your favor. That and if they pop he brings them back into your hand with some mana to boot. Karn is a top tier PW. Just gotta think outside the box with him. Biggest mistake I find that some players do with him is try to make "E.B.T.K.S." builds [Everything But The Kitchen Sink] … the synergy isn't there despite the cards being the biggest baddest hardcore cards in every color. A clunky deck is just that, a clunky deck, no matter how awesome those cards are that they put in it. I beat them in TG every single time.Anyways, Karn is extremely good in the hands of an expert player... one I think you'd have no problems with when you get this Beast of Metaliciousness. lol Man, you make it sound like Blightcaster is a must have for Karn...
Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time.
bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug?
Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating)
bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out.
Blightcaster is nasty with Karn, especially if playing the full rainbow builds in legacy … clues & treasures alongside Nyx and flip supports from IXN and RIX make for a nasty combo. In standard, the treasures and flip/nyx work well. Karn's construct keep churning out heavily charged supports to your hand at the end of the turn. I cannot recall, but I am also pretty sure the Saga chapters trigger Blightcaster too, if I remember correctly.
Dobby said: Gunmix25 said: Dobby said: babar3355 said: The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana. This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match. That is far too explosive, most people would agree.But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc). They went from around +5 to +15. Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages. Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great. Total +14.But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2. For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. Thoughts? I have to say that the primary method of making old planeswalkers playable should be to rebalance them, and to quit it with the clearly unsustainable levels of power creep of new planeswalkers.That said, I wholeheartedly agree with @babar3355 's point that serious thought should be put into designing cards which are more powerful for mono-colored planeswalkers than they are for 2 or 3 colored ones. That's one thing I always like about the design of Corrupted Grafstone.. and something I find utterly baffling about the design of the new cycle of lands, like Hinterland Harbor. "Wait, this card won't be quite as powerful for Kiora as for Garruk, will it? Let's fix that problem!", say the designers. Why? For Christ's sake isn't Kiora powerful enough?Honestly, card power levels need to be levelled out a bit. "Let's make a new Nissa's Pilgrimage!" say the designers. "Ok, how much should it cost?" say some other designers. "Well, the game needs to be slowed down a bit, so... 13 mana!". Come on, guys, it's been ages since you inherited this unholy mess of a game from Hibernum, you can stop making the same mistakes that they did now. There are a lot of numbers between 3 and 13. Unsustainable levels of power creep? Unsustainable, how?Anyways, what facet are you focusing on that Oktagon is basically Hibernium? Because I don't see it. The levels of power creep now is nothing like AHK or HOR. That and about the only one Hibernium addressed was Baral. Oktagon has addressed issues that occurred and some were to the detriment of players here. I.e. lotus. Brigby has been trying to keep us in touch with the going ons and letting us know that the Devs are aware of the issues being fixed, some related to power creep.The synergy in DOM is very well done and because of this the cards push us to create unusual builds. A move towards better banking imho, right Dobby? Anyways, I see PW with unique abilities but teferi's ability requires a bit of specific building to to utilize his 3rd effectively, but it's not a game ender. Jaya isn't available yet and we all truly can only guess how her third will play out. Karn is great and the Devs wisely found a way to restrict his color choices in nodes for competition. What the Devs managed to do that few have seen yo point out is that these new PW are not parasitic. An important trait much needed because we've many threads about how the devs made parasitic PW and how they're restricted for the long term. Well the power creep I'm referring to is specifically that of the planeswalkers, the context being the specific discussion that I'm engaging in. @babar3355 is talking about how Gilded Lotus is needed to make old planeswalkers playable. I agree with him that PWs like Lilliana1 and Gideon2 have fallen way behind more recent planeswalkers in terms of mana production.... +2/+2/+2/+0/+0 is clearly far behind -1/+2/+4/+4/-1 or +7/+3/-2/-2/+3, before you even consider Karn and his creeping mana gains.Increasing the overall total gains of planeswalkers set by set will inevitable lead to older planeswalkers being mothballed. Which is bad. i hope they don't do thatYou're right that there doesn't seem to be much of a level of power creep in the cards at the moment. Which is good! I hope they carry on with that!
Gunmix25 said: Dobby said: babar3355 said: The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana. This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match. That is far too explosive, most people would agree.But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc). They went from around +5 to +15. Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages. Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great. Total +14.But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2. For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. Thoughts? I have to say that the primary method of making old planeswalkers playable should be to rebalance them, and to quit it with the clearly unsustainable levels of power creep of new planeswalkers.That said, I wholeheartedly agree with @babar3355 's point that serious thought should be put into designing cards which are more powerful for mono-colored planeswalkers than they are for 2 or 3 colored ones. That's one thing I always like about the design of Corrupted Grafstone.. and something I find utterly baffling about the design of the new cycle of lands, like Hinterland Harbor. "Wait, this card won't be quite as powerful for Kiora as for Garruk, will it? Let's fix that problem!", say the designers. Why? For Christ's sake isn't Kiora powerful enough?Honestly, card power levels need to be levelled out a bit. "Let's make a new Nissa's Pilgrimage!" say the designers. "Ok, how much should it cost?" say some other designers. "Well, the game needs to be slowed down a bit, so... 13 mana!". Come on, guys, it's been ages since you inherited this unholy mess of a game from Hibernum, you can stop making the same mistakes that they did now. There are a lot of numbers between 3 and 13. Unsustainable levels of power creep? Unsustainable, how?Anyways, what facet are you focusing on that Oktagon is basically Hibernium? Because I don't see it. The levels of power creep now is nothing like AHK or HOR. That and about the only one Hibernium addressed was Baral. Oktagon has addressed issues that occurred and some were to the detriment of players here. I.e. lotus. Brigby has been trying to keep us in touch with the going ons and letting us know that the Devs are aware of the issues being fixed, some related to power creep.The synergy in DOM is very well done and because of this the cards push us to create unusual builds. A move towards better banking imho, right Dobby? Anyways, I see PW with unique abilities but teferi's ability requires a bit of specific building to to utilize his 3rd effectively, but it's not a game ender. Jaya isn't available yet and we all truly can only guess how her third will play out. Karn is great and the Devs wisely found a way to restrict his color choices in nodes for competition. What the Devs managed to do that few have seen yo point out is that these new PW are not parasitic. An important trait much needed because we've many threads about how the devs made parasitic PW and how they're restricted for the long term.
Dobby said: babar3355 said: The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana. This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match. That is far too explosive, most people would agree.But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc). They went from around +5 to +15. Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages. Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great. Total +14.But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2. For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. Thoughts? I have to say that the primary method of making old planeswalkers playable should be to rebalance them, and to quit it with the clearly unsustainable levels of power creep of new planeswalkers.That said, I wholeheartedly agree with @babar3355 's point that serious thought should be put into designing cards which are more powerful for mono-colored planeswalkers than they are for 2 or 3 colored ones. That's one thing I always like about the design of Corrupted Grafstone.. and something I find utterly baffling about the design of the new cycle of lands, like Hinterland Harbor. "Wait, this card won't be quite as powerful for Kiora as for Garruk, will it? Let's fix that problem!", say the designers. Why? For Christ's sake isn't Kiora powerful enough?Honestly, card power levels need to be levelled out a bit. "Let's make a new Nissa's Pilgrimage!" say the designers. "Ok, how much should it cost?" say some other designers. "Well, the game needs to be slowed down a bit, so... 13 mana!". Come on, guys, it's been ages since you inherited this unholy mess of a game from Hibernum, you can stop making the same mistakes that they did now. There are a lot of numbers between 3 and 13.
babar3355 said: The community largely agrees that the Gilded Lotus nerf has made the card virtually unplayable. I have forgotten to take it out of a few decks and typically exile it whenever I draw it.And admittedly it was probably too powerful at +2 for 7 Mana. This effectively made Saheeli's Mana gains +21 after a single red or blue match. That is far too explosive, most people would agree.But what about all the little guys who suddenly became playable with GL? (L1, J1, C1, C2, G1, Sarkhan T1, etc). They went from around +5 to +15. Making them more competitive, if not strong.. now they go back to unplayable.But with a slight tweak to GL, they could level set these walkers without creating game breaking advantages. Leave Gilded Lotus exactly in it's prenerf form, with a caveat that it could not raise Mana bonuses above +2.So for Saheeli's, her U/R wouldn't change but her G/W/B would got up +1... Not great. Total +14.But for L1, her B would be unchanged at +3, R/U would go up +1, and G/W would go up +2. For a new gain of +11. Pretty solid.It would also help alleviate the need to rework all of these PWs or just leave them to collect dust. Thoughts?
I agree about the older PW. If anything, Lill3 and Jaya are good examples of what the mana increase could be for such PW. An adjustment on that scale should provide a more solid gain setting against the multi-colored PW of today. If any PW that could get mothballed are those with parasitic abilities. Teferi is infinitely better than Dovin because of this issue. If Dovin's abilities were built more for the long term, he would be just as viable as Teferi.
Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out. That is definitely odd, I'll give it another try. Maybe it was a bug that they fixed without telling us? Stranger things have happened. And Karn with Jodah is hilarious, you can buff your gains after Jodah nixes them, but not once you hit the 3 times max.
bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out. That is definitely odd, I'll give it another try. Maybe it was a bug that they fixed without telling us? Stranger things have happened. And Karn with Jodah is hilarious, you can buff your gains after Jodah nixes them, but not once you hit the 3 times max. Put it through another series of tests today. Still doesn’t buff mana gains with Jodah in play (see video).
Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out. That is definitely odd, I'll give it another try. Maybe it was a bug that they fixed without telling us? Stranger things have happened. And Karn with Jodah is hilarious, you can buff your gains after Jodah nixes them, but not once you hit the 3 times max. Put it through another series of tests today. Still doesn’t buff mana gains with Jodah in play (see video). Yeah, I found the same thing (see earlier comment for full analysis).Must have been a release-day bug they fixed. Oh well. Both are still solid cards.
bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out. That is definitely odd, I'll give it another try. Maybe it was a bug that they fixed without telling us? Stranger things have happened. And Karn with Jodah is hilarious, you can buff your gains after Jodah nixes them, but not once you hit the 3 times max. Put it through another series of tests today. Still doesn’t buff mana gains with Jodah in play (see video). Yeah, I found the same thing (see earlier comment for full analysis).Must have been a release-day bug they fixed. Oh well. Both are still solid cards. Navigator's Compass does work since it buffs at the beginning of turn. I've tried it 3 times.
bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: bken1234 said: Mburn7 said: You know, I still find the lotus pretty useful in certain decks. Its great with Jodah, and is still good for older walkers who need a mana boost.Honestly, if it had a couple more shields (make it 3 or 4) it would be a definitely usable card. Sure, not nearly as powerful, but still something I'll use from time to time. I tried it with Jodah and his abilities overrode it. Which PW did you use?Maybe this is a bug? I originally tried it with Kiora with Marwyn, Lotus, another elf (our freebie, I believe), and Song of Freyalese.I found I still had all the bonuses after Jodah triggered every turn, which makes sense because he shouldn't be overriding stuff on the field (I assume dampening sphere would be devastating) It remains 0 every time for me. I have tried it in Karn, Saheeli, Kiora, Bolas and dirty Jace. Could there be another card overriding it? The way I read the interaction, it's working as intended for me. Jodah should override Lotus. Lotus buffs the mana gains, but at the top of every turn, Jodah zeros them out. That is definitely odd, I'll give it another try. Maybe it was a bug that they fixed without telling us? Stranger things have happened. And Karn with Jodah is hilarious, you can buff your gains after Jodah nixes them, but not once you hit the 3 times max. Put it through another series of tests today. Still doesn’t buff mana gains with Jodah in play (see video). https://youtu.be/5cqezkWXwAcThis is the deck I used:
Froggy said: I really appreciate the discussion that everyone has put up here in this thread. A lot of constructive ideas and useful input. I’m really pleased to see that D3 and the devs actually paid attention to all this and have made a fix on the card.I think the fix they have made is just and will make the card playable and again a very powerful addition to the DOM set. Not broken, but powerful.So thank you all for contributing and thank you @Brigby and D3 for listening.
bken1234 said: @FindingHeart8 I will answer in the deckbuilding channel when I get a couple minutes -- so we don't derail this thread.