Tapping.....

Moon Roach

Just wondering, has anyone successfully trained their cat to tap?  Asking for a friend.

The rockett

Moon Roach said:

Just wondering, has anyone successfully trained their cat to tap?  Asking for a friend.

Lol. Not sure of that but their are buddies out there somewhere that could help.  Might need something with more legs to keep up.  

Bowgentle

The rockett said:

Moon Roach said:

Just wondering, has anyone successfully trained their cat to tap?  Asking for a friend.

Lol. Not sure of that but their are buddies out there somewhere that could help.  Might need something with more legs to keep up.  

Certain octopods come to mind.

Smart80

The rockett said:

Moon Roach said:

Just wondering, has anyone successfully trained their cat to tap?  Asking for a friend.

Lol. Not sure of that but their are buddies out there somewhere that could help.  Might need something with more legs to keep up.  

As cats dont need their paws to eat and drink, and if you keep them of LINE or other social media, you might not need the extra legs. But yeah, you will surely start at a disadvantage...

tiomono

What is a downside to tapping leaving? 

Many of the anti tapping arguments are coming from the top 10% or less.

If tapping is gone and something unexpected happens and you miss a day of an event what happens? If it's not the last day and tapping is still in place you could potentially save some of your progression woes. 

Yes tapping technically affects everyone. But the only people to actually notice the effects are people in the top 10 or 20. The people tapping will still be up in those ranks without tapping. 

If anyone that thinks tapping going away magically gives them a shot they are forgetting the tappers mentality. That mentality is they are willing to do whatever to be the best. They will optimize their game without tapping and that top 10 to 20 will not drastically change.

broll

aesthetocyst said:

Spudgutter said:

aesthetocyst said:

This decision affects everyone who plays pve. Pretending it doesnt is simplistic.

... we can argue about how many people it affects, but no way 100% are affected....

Yep, you're being simplistic.

And you can't see the view from an 'average' player.  You can argue it affects everyone and while I disagree, it does effect more than 20 or so (though it's definitely still less than 50 so less than 5%)

The only players that are really going to feel/care about that are the people fighting for top rewards.  Yeah sure, someone could miss T1000 by 2 places because of tappers, but how are they gonna know that?  They aren't carefully watching the top 10 players and frankly do they care at that point? 

Be real man...  This is a super niche problem for top players.  Just as most of the issues I complain about, just as almost everything talked about on the forums.  I would argue this is nicher than most, but don't act like it confuses players on a wide scale, I could probably list 20 things more confusing than tapping to new/average players (MMR, 5*s wrecking MMR, optimal play in PvE, shield hopping, battle chats, bracket sniping, etc. etc.)

Bowgentle

OJSP said:

Finished 13th. As far as I could tell, 9 players tapped before grinding, while a few (including me) tapped because we mistimed our grind and there was still time left before the start of the next sub.

If 2.9 will be like that in the future I'll take a break from PVE.
Have you seen our new bracket?

HoundofShadow

They could increase the enemy level of all nodes to between 750 to 900 on the 8th clear for a 24hr node, 9th clear for a 48 hours node, 5th (24 hrs) or 6th (48 hrs) clear for a wave node. This way, players who want to tap regardless of reasons are going to face an uphill battle if they want to gain an extra 3 or 4 points. Yet players who want to challenge themselves can try to take them down. Condition: Team-up with stun would be prohibited on the xth clear. 

Smart80

It doesnt really matter if 100%, 50%, 10% or even just the elite 1% is effected. What does matter is that it effects whats most fought for and changing it wont matter to those uneffected by tapping, cause those outside top 50 are only green checking or less anyway..

Those saying (or agreeing) it would be solution to someone missing a day of the event are mistaken. Eventhough some gather a whole lot of points, its nowhere near enough to make up a days worth.

And sure, its nice to do some damage protection if you timed grind too long, but without that safety net, its 10 times more fun anyway.

Smart80

OJSP said:

HoundofShadow said:

They could increase the enemy level of all nodes to between 750 to 900 on the 8th clear for a 24hr node, 9th clear for a 48 hours node, 5th (24 hrs) or 6th (48 hrs) clear for a wave node. This way, players who want to tap regardless of reasons are going to face an uphill battle if they want to gain an extra 3 or 4 points. 

If you know how levels scale, I think you wouldn’t suggest lvl 750 or even 900. Not sure if even lvl 550 5*s boosted to 660 could even beat lvl 750 characters. We need @aesthetocyst to provide the chart and numbers.

Making the pts go down to 0 would be the simplest fix.

Lol, just imagined level 900 Juggernaut........ *faints*

HoundofShadow

That's the point... I could make it 450 to 550 but it is not a lot since 550 is the max level for a player' characters.

The point is to make it so difficult that when you win them, it's worth that extra few points just to be ahead and win the LT or 4* covers. 

Let's say if position number 2 player has X points and position number 1 player has X + 1 point after both have done optimal clears for placement,  and position number 2 player tapped the node once for 3 or 4 extra points so that he could get top 1 placement but position number 1 player chose not to tap, then do you think it's fair to position number 1 player?

The previous trial still allows points to regenerate except that it starts from 0. By making the 8th clear so difficult that it's close to impossible to tap, wouldn't it be fairer? 

Sm0keyJ0e

When they ran the anti-tapping test, nodes went to zero but refreshed as they always do. So there was the chance to re-hit some nodes at the end if you finished early. So everyone wins! Tappers can still tap a bit at the end for prosperity! What's not to like in this system??

tiomono

Smart80 said:8

It doesnt really matter if 100%, 50%, 10% or even just the elite 1% is effected. What does matter is that it effects whats most fought for and changing it wont matter to those uneffected by tapping, cause those outside top 50 are only green checking or less anyway..

Those saying (or agreeing) it would be solution to someone missing a day of the event are mistaken. Eventhough some gather a whole lot of points, its nowhere near enough to make up a days worth.

And sure, its nice to do some damage protection if you timed grind too long, but without that safety net, its 10 times more fun anyway.

I said if you missed a day tapping may help with "some" of your progression woes, not placement. I never said it would get you back in full.

Dedicated tappers that are taking the top spots have top tier rosters and way more time/dedication to the game. Taking away their ability to tap will not shove them off the top. They will adapt and still be top tier because they obviously have more spare time than the vast majority of players.

HoundofShadow

I think that reducing nodes to zero is a good idea. I also seems to remember someone pointing out the downside of reducing it to zero.  I don't think it's in this thread but in threads started months ago. I can't remember what the downside is.

broll

aesthetocyst said:

broll said: ... Just as most of the issues I complain about, just as almost everything talked about on the forums.  ...  I could probably list 20 things more confusing than tapping to new/average players ...

That equivocation doesn't fly. This is a thread about one issue, and the difference between this issue and various other controversial aspects of MPQ is .... this one has a simple solution, backed by precedents in the game's development and dev's commentary.

Well, except the comment about tapping being needed to avoid the terrible spectre of "ties" (that aren't ties).

I wasn't suggesting those can/should be fixed first.  I'm suggesting that all/many of those issues are more likely to perplex a new/average player long before they realize tapping.

I'm certain above average in both amount of play and study of the game and I didn't discover tapping existed until ~6 months ago when I've been playing for 2 years....  I'm saying your argument that it effects everyone and people are gonna question it is a straw mans argument.  Unless you regularly hitting T10 and majorly analyzing the game tapping will be a concept well outside your comprehension.  It may effect everyone, but not noticeably/significantly for most kno wand/or care..  

It's also worth noting that if tapping goes away it's not like everyone jumps up 10-20 ranks.  Most tappers are people that would still make 10-20.  So people outside that range, are still unaffected.  The only reason you guys are arguing for it to go away is so you can get the good rankings without as much effort.  Which is not a bad thing to fight for, but don't mask it as you're fighitng for the little guy, you're not, it's for you..  

ZeroKarma

broll said:

aesthetocyst said:

broll said: ... Just as most of the issues I complain about, just as almost everything talked about on the forums.  ...  I could probably list 20 things more confusing than tapping to new/average players ...

That equivocation doesn't fly. This is a thread about one issue, and the difference between this issue and various other controversial aspects of MPQ is .... this one has a simple solution, backed by precedents in the game's development and dev's commentary.

Well, except the comment about tapping being needed to avoid the terrible spectre of "ties" (that aren't ties).

I wasn't suggesting those can/should be fixed first.  I'm suggesting that all/many of those issues are more likely to perplex a new/average player long before they realize tapping.

I'm certain above average in both amount of play and study of the game and I didn't discover tapping existed until ~6 months ago when I've been playing for 2 years....  I'm saying your argument that it effects everyone and people are gonna question it is a straw mans argument.  Unless you regularly hitting T10 and majorly analyzing the game tapping will be a concept well outside your comprehension.  It may effect everyone, but not noticeably/significantly for most kno wand/or care..  

It's also worth noting that if tapping goes away it's not like everyone jumps up 10-20 ranks.  Most tappers are people that would still make 10-20.  So people outside that range, are still unaffected.  The only reason you guys are arguing for it to go away is so you can get the good rankings without as much TIME.  Which is not a bad thing to fight for, but don't mask it as you're fighitng for the little guy, you're not, it's for you..  

Fixed that last part for you. One of the previous posters defending tapping pointed out that it is incredibly easy, can be done while having a conversation, and can basically be achieved without much requirement for intelligent thought that would otherwise affect your daily life in a negative way. 

With regards to who is most affected, it is the top of the slice and it would absolutely shake up the leaderboards, as it did during the test. There are people that tap because they aren't able to keep up with the fastest players, and there are people that tap to keep up with the tappers. Distinct subsets, but the latter grows every event. 

It is also driven harder by the T10 alliance placement rewards which also have an LT, which give further incentive to this arms (fingers?) race. 

broll

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

The only reason you guys are arguing for it to go away is so you can get the good rankings without as much TIME. 

Fixed that last part for you. One of the previous posters defending tapping pointed out that it is incredibly easy, can be done while having a conversation, and can basically be achieved without much requirement for intelligent thought that would otherwise affect your daily life in a negative way. 

So what did you fix exactly?  As other people have pointed out and you yourself do tapping is super easy.  You can do it while doing a number of other activities.  Hence I say effort vs time.  You don't need to dedicate set apart time to focus on MPQ, just do it while you're doing other things.  The few times I tapped I did it while I was doing what I would have otherwise been doing so it took no extra time, just extra effort.  

tiomono

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

aesthetocyst said:

broll said: ... Just as most of the issues I complain about, just as almost everything talked about on the forums.  ...  I could probably list 20 things more confusing than tapping to new/average players ...

That equivocation doesn't fly. This is a thread about one issue, and the difference between this issue and various other controversial aspects of MPQ is .... this one has a simple solution, backed by precedents in the game's development and dev's commentary.

Well, except the comment about tapping being needed to avoid the terrible spectre of "ties" (that aren't ties).

I wasn't suggesting those can/should be fixed first.  I'm suggesting that all/many of those issues are more likely to perplex a new/average player long before they realize tapping.

I'm certain above average in both amount of play and study of the game and I didn't discover tapping existed until ~6 months ago when I've been playing for 2 years....  I'm saying your argument that it effects everyone and people are gonna question it is a straw mans argument.  Unless you regularly hitting T10 and majorly analyzing the game tapping will be a concept well outside your comprehension.  It may effect everyone, but not noticeably/significantly for most kno wand/or care..  

It's also worth noting that if tapping goes away it's not like everyone jumps up 10-20 ranks.  Most tappers are people that would still make 10-20.  So people outside that range, are still unaffected.  The only reason you guys are arguing for it to go away is so you can get the good rankings without as much TIME.  Which is not a bad thing to fight for, but don't mask it as you're fighitng for the little guy, you're not, it's for you..  

Fixed that last part for you. One of the previous posters defending tapping pointed out that it is incredibly easy, can be done while having a conversation, and can basically be achieved without much requirement for intelligent thought that would otherwise affect your daily life in a negative way. 

With regards to who is most affected, it is the top of the slice and it would absolutely shake up the leaderboards, as it did during the test. There are people that tap because they aren't able to keep up with the fastest players, and there are people that tap to keep up with the tappers. Distinct subsets, but the latter grows every event. 

It is also driven harder by the T10 alliance placement rewards which also have an LT, which give further incentive to this arms (fingers?) race. 

The whole game is easy and mindless not just tapping. This is about time, nothing else. Players willing to tap for top placement have more time for the game. They get top spots because they spend more time playing.

Stop trying to talk down to tappers arguing they don't deserve what they earn because they engage in incredibly easy tasks more often then others.

Spudgutter

aesthetocyst said:

Spudgutter said:

aesthetocyst said:

This decision affects everyone who plays pve. Pretending it doesnt is simplistic.

... we can argue about how many people it affects, but no way 100% are affected....

Yep, you're being simplistic.

The parameters of the event determine what strategies are available to players, and what it takes to win. That affects everyone playing.

So long as points can be generated by repeatedly hitting the same node or nodes, commonly referred to as 'tapping', then ...

... it will be an option for those who are coming up just short of whatever goal (a progression, any particular placement, not just the top). In a MPQ w/o tapping, they'd just have to try next time. As is, they have the option to play obsessively. If they are tapping for placement, and they succeed, they are bumping others out. Seen it, been there, done it, many times over the years. Your inability to see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. 

... pve engagement will be unnecessarily capped. It will continue to be required to win a pve, and in some brackets to place t5 or even t10. If this farce is what it takes to win, players are discouraged to not bother trying. That's disengagement. And tapping is becoming more common over time.

... tapping at the top distorts scoring expectations and confuses player attempts to understand the pve scoring model. We occasionally get threads from newer players asking about pve scoring, they aren't understanding how to work the clocks to max points, can't figure out how they are getting passed by, can't improve their placement, etc. You can explain "playing optimally" with a straight face, it's arcane but does have some logic, but then to explain the top scores, when they are aberrations to an otherwise very obvious pattern, as people who are simply playing obsessively and oh if you ever dream of winning pve in higher SCLs like you used to in lower SCLs then you will have to as well .... it just undermines any attempt to explain and justify pve.* The Game of Clocks is weird enough. Tapping is rot at the core that renders a silly game a joke and its competition a pretense. The natural assumption of newer players is that these aberrant scores are proof of cheating. Why should they play a game that tolerates cheating? More disengagement.




_____________

* Yes, that's an intentional run-on. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. 

So your argument is that someone who has played long enough to be in Cl8 or CL9 is confused about scoring?  Disagree.

Engagement will go down?  There are plenty of other things that could discourage people, especially newer players from playing.  The teeny tiny chance of top 10 in pve, the difficulty in getting just a 4* in progression in pvp before they get smacked back down or the fact that there are over five dozen 4* that they need in order to even place that high are just a few things that people openly discuss ALREADY after a few hundred days of play.  I disagree again.

Fixing it so that an extremely tiny percentage get a certain reward versus a different set of extremely tiny percentage get that same reward should be very low on the list of priorities.

They should be concentrating  on something that truly affects everyone.

ursopro

Remove tapping and bring back personal scaling.