Tapping.....

broll

ursopro said:

bring back personal scaling.

No need to punish everyone cause tapping happened...  Personal scaling was awful and SCL based PvE scaling is one of the best improvements the game has ever had.

mohio

tiomono said:

Stop trying to talk down to tappers arguing they don't deserve what they earn because they engage in incredibly easy tasks more often then others.

I always hate doing this, cause I don't want to come across as speaking for others, or putting words in anyone's mouth, but here goes...I don't think most people who have been speaking out against tapping have been talking "down to tappers" or "arguing they don't deserve what they earn". Rather, they are arguing that the current system is bad for the game, and bad for the developers bottom line. It encourages people to not spend, and simply invest more time in the game to win instead. If the game was built in such a way that they could monetize this (energy, forced ads at certain time intervals for non-spenders, etc.) then that would certainly be a different. Not only does it encourage people not to spend, it has the added negative of driving off the spenders, cause they are spending a large chunk of money without gaining much of an advantage. So yes, it looks like the argument is "it should be this way cause it would be better for me", but really at the core, it's "this way is bad for the health of the game and needs to change ASAP". 

Thankfully, the devs seem to agree in this regard, so mostly the goal is to encourage the devs to get it done faster. 

HoundofShadow

In an ideal and fair scenario, all players (who do optimal placement clears) stop at the 7th clear in a 24 hour sub (barring special nodes) and accept their results. Any player who hits more than 7th clear disrupts the equilibrium.

Of course, this equilibrium has been disrupted because of the players' needs to earn the top prize or the fear of losing the top prize or whatever reasons; therefore they played more than 7 clears to guarantee the top spots.

What enabled them to do this are nodes regenerating at 3 or 4 points and nodes that are easily beaten in 1 or 2 minutes. In the previous trial, nodes regenerated from 0 and solved most of the "problem". I think it could be further improved by turning the 8th clear and beyond to monster level since points are still regenerating, albeit at a slower rate. The purpose is to provide a challenge meant for top players and if they win, it proves that they truly deserve that extra few points, in case of a few points difference among the top 5 players. 

broll

mohio said:

I don't think most people who have been speaking out against tapping have been talking "down to tappers" or "arguing they don't deserve what they earn". Rather, they are arguing that the current system is bad for the game, and bad for the developers bottom line. 

I think there is some of both and how much of each depends on the poster.  Also I've seen suggestions that would improve the bottom line by making it harder for the same group of people to always get rewards and they don't like that either.  All in all it comes down to people protecting their ability to get the best rewards and finding ways to justify it that sound more noble/fair/egalitarian than that sounds.  I'm guilty of it too.  Ultimately we're primarily motivated to support whatever strategy supports our own self interests. 

In general all the most vocal anti-tappers are those that have the most to gain by it going away.  Sure there are occasionally someone outside the T20 range that chimes that they'd like to see it go away, but they're not the ones holding the pitch forks and torches claiming to fight the fight to save D3 money or save players from themselves..

tiomono

mohio said:

tiomono said:

Stop trying to talk down to tappers arguing they don't deserve what they earn because they engage in incredibly easy tasks more often then others.

I always hate doing this, cause I don't want to come across as speaking for others, or putting words in anyone's mouth, but here goes...I don't think most people who have been speaking out against tapping have been talking "down to tappers" or "arguing they don't deserve what they earn". Rather, they are arguing that the current system is bad for the game, and bad for the developers bottom line. It encourages people to not spend, and simply invest more time in the game to win instead. If the game was built in such a way that they could monetize this (energy, forced ads at certain time intervals for non-spenders, etc.) then that would certainly be a different. Not only does it encourage people not to spend, it has the added negative of driving off the spenders, cause they are spending a large chunk of money without gaining much of an advantage. So yes, it looks like the argument is "it should be this way cause it would be better for me", but really at the core, it's "this way is bad for the health of the game and needs to change ASAP". 

Thankfully, the devs seem to agree in this regard, so mostly the goal is to encourage the devs to get it done faster. 

I don't think I have ever said it needs to stay. But many of the people that are very anti tapping are also very quick to point out how tapping is "mindless, easy, lazy, etc, etc, ad naseum." In general talking like the people putting in the effort in the "current working" state of the game, should not be the people winning.

Yes the devs are looking into it. Will they work faster by people hounding them every event? Probably not. Could they perhaps, I don't know, rush something out, not looking at all sides of an issue and making some worse side effect to the game that's not easy to see. No that would be a ridiculous thought. That never happens.

And there is zero proof to the the idea that tapping reduces the likeliehood of someone spending money on the game.

ZeroKarma

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

The only reason you guys are arguing for it to go away is so you can get the good rankings without as much TIME. 

Fixed that last part for you. One of the previous posters defending tapping pointed out that it is incredibly easy, can be done while having a conversation, and can basically be achieved without much requirement for intelligent thought that would otherwise affect your daily life in a negative way. 

So what did you fix exactly?  As other people have pointed out and you yourself do tapping is super easy.  You can do it while doing a number of other activities.  Hence I say effort vs time.  You don't need to dedicate set apart time to focus on MPQ, just do it while you're doing other things.  The few times I tapped I did it while I was doing what I would have otherwise been doing so it took no extra time, just extra effort.  

I changed the part where you said I and others want rewards for less effort. I believe the operative word is time. I want to be able to earn rewards in what I consider to be a reasonable amount of time. Just clarifying, as I have tapped for an entire event and I wouldn’t categorize the activity as effort.

Spudgutter

aesthetocyst said:

Spudgutter said:

So your argument is that someone who has played long enough to be in Cl8 or CL9 is confused about scoring?  

Strawman? You can do better.

Huh?  Here is your post:

aesthetocyst said:

... tapping at the top distorts scoring expectations and confuses player attempts to understand the pve scoring model. We occasionally get threads from newer players asking about pve scoring, they aren't understanding how to work the clocks to max points, can't figure out how they are getting passed by, can't improve their placement, etc. You can explain "playing optimally" with a straight face, it's arcane but does have some logic, but then to explain the top scores, when they are aberrations to an otherwise very obvious pattern, as people who are simply playing obsessively and oh if you ever dream of winning pve in higher SCLs like you used to in lower SCLs then you will have to as well .... it just undermines any attempt to explain and justify pve.* The Game of Clocks is weird enough. Tapping is rot at the core that renders a silly game a joke and its competition a pretense. The natural assumption of newer players is that these aberrant scores are proof of cheating. Why should they play a game that tolerates cheating? 

From YOUR next to last line, newer players will see these scores and think there is cheating.  My counter is that tapping is really only an issue in scl8 and 9, maybe a little in 7.  Ergo, newer players will not see tapping, so i disagree with your assessment.  

You even mentioned your alt account is 'mired in 3* land.' In your vision of 'excellence in design,' they spend their time fixing something this, rather then all the other things i mentioned?  You think that tapping dissuaded someone from continuing, not the fact that i am 1500 days ahead of them with all 4* champed and 10 champed 5* and at the current pace, they will need 1000 days to catch up?  Ok, sure.

ZeroKarma

Spudgutter said:

aesthetocyst said:

Spudgutter said:

So your argument is that someone who has played long enough to be in Cl8 or CL9 is confused about scoring?  

Strawman? You can do better.

Huh?  Here is your post:

aesthetocyst said:

... tapping at the top distorts scoring expectations and confuses player attempts to understand the pve scoring model. We occasionally get threads from newer players asking about pve scoring, they aren't understanding how to work the clocks to max points, can't figure out how they are getting passed by, can't improve their placement, etc. You can explain "playing optimally" with a straight face, it's arcane but does have some logic, but then to explain the top scores, when they are aberrations to an otherwise very obvious pattern, as people who are simply playing obsessively and oh if you ever dream of winning pve in higher SCLs like you used to in lower SCLs then you will have to as well .... it just undermines any attempt to explain and justify pve.* The Game of Clocks is weird enough. Tapping is rot at the core that renders a silly game a joke and its competition a pretense. The natural assumption of newer players is that these aberrant scores are proof of cheating. Why should they play a game that tolerates cheating? 

From YOUR next to last line, newer players will see these scores and think there is cheating.  My counter is that tapping is really only an issue in scl8 and 9, maybe a little in 7.  Ergo, newer players will not see tapping, so i disagree with your assessment.  

You even mentioned your alt account is 'mired in 3* land.' In your vision of 'excellence in design,' they spend their time fixing something this, rather then all the other things i mentioned?  You think that tapping dissuaded someone from continuing, not the fact that i am 1500 days ahead of them with all 4* champed and 10 champed 5* and at the current pace, they will need 1000 days to catch up?  Ok, sure.

Fixing this is literally as easy as switching over to the test setup. Let’s not pretend that multitasking is impossible since the setup is already there.

Whats the downside? I’m waiting for the pro-tapping argument. Not a single person has posted and said, “Listen, I want to be able to play trivial nodes for 5 hours a day, but they shut off the prologue so I do it in PVE.” or “I believe that PvE should be determined by free time with no regards for speed and roster. That’s fair.”

I think we all agree it’s the way the system works, and it isn’t cheating. We have also confirmed that the desire to eliminate tapping has nothing to do with an intervention or saving the children. That there is no great competitive argument for tapping as the sole determiner of placement. That it could start from tomorrow if the devs so choose.

The argument is now going in circles. It will continue to flare up at the end of every sub and every event like clockwork.

tiomono

ZeroKarma said:

Spudgutter said:

aesthetocyst said:

Spudgutter said:

So your argument is that someone who has played long enough to be in Cl8 or CL9 is confused about scoring?  

Strawman? You can do better.

Huh?  Here is your post:

aesthetocyst said:

... tapping at the top distorts scoring expectations and confuses player attempts to understand the pve scoring model. We occasionally get threads from newer players asking about pve scoring, they aren't understanding how to work the clocks to max points, can't figure out how they are getting passed by, can't improve their placement, etc. You can explain "playing optimally" with a straight face, it's arcane but does have some logic, but then to explain the top scores, when they are aberrations to an otherwise very obvious pattern, as people who are simply playing obsessively and oh if you ever dream of winning pve in higher SCLs like you used to in lower SCLs then you will have to as well .... it just undermines any attempt to explain and justify pve.* The Game of Clocks is weird enough. Tapping is rot at the core that renders a silly game a joke and its competition a pretense. The natural assumption of newer players is that these aberrant scores are proof of cheating. Why should they play a game that tolerates cheating? 

From YOUR next to last line, newer players will see these scores and think there is cheating.  My counter is that tapping is really only an issue in scl8 and 9, maybe a little in 7.  Ergo, newer players will not see tapping, so i disagree with your assessment.  

You even mentioned your alt account is 'mired in 3* land.' In your vision of 'excellence in design,' they spend their time fixing something this, rather then all the other things i mentioned?  You think that tapping dissuaded someone from continuing, not the fact that i am 1500 days ahead of them with all 4* champed and 10 champed 5* and at the current pace, they will need 1000 days to catch up?  Ok, sure.

Fixing this is literally as easy as switching over to the test setup. Let’s not pretend that multitasking is impossible since the setup is already there.

Whats the downside? I’m waiting for the pro-tapping argument. Not a single person has posted and said, “Listen, I want to be able to play trivial nodes for 5 hours a day, but they shut off the prologue so I do it in PVE.” or “I believe that PvE should be determined by free time with no regards for speed and roster. That’s fair.”

I think we all agree it’s the way the system works, and it isn’t cheating. We have also confirmed that the desire to eliminate tapping has nothing to do with an intervention or saving the children. That there is no great competitive argument for tapping as the sole determiner of placement. That it could start from tomorrow if the devs so choose.

The argument is now going in circles. It will continue to flare up at the end of every sub and every event like clockwork.

You think its as easy as flipping a switch. But you do not have the info that the devs do. Maybe it's not so easy. Maybe this change dropped in priority to below champ adjustments, which have dropped below the fabled new feature. We do not know. Maybe something in the test scared em off like with the wins based season. Again we do not know.

The single greatest problem for this game in my eyes is still devolper communication.

Daredevil217

ZeroKarma said:

Whats the downside? I’m waiting for the pro-tapping argument. Not a single person has posted and said, “Listen, I want to be able to play trivial nodes for 5 hours a day, but they shut off the prologue so I do it in PVE.” or “I believe that PvE should be determined by free time with no regards for speed and roster. That’s fair.”

You might not like the arguments or may not have read the thread, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. 

tiomono said:

What is a downside to tapping leaving? 

Many of the anti tapping arguments are coming from the top 10% or less.

If tapping is gone and something unexpected happens and you miss a day of an event what happens? If it's not the last day and tapping is still in place you could potentially save some of your progression woes. 

Yes tapping technically affects everyone. But the only people to actually notice the effects are people in the top 10 or 20. The people tapping will still be up in those ranks without tapping. 

If anyone that thinks tapping going away magically gives them a shot they are forgetting the tappers mentality. That mentality is they are willing to do whatever to be the best. They will optimize their game without tapping and that top 10 to 20 will not drastically change.

HoundofShadow

Could it really be the problem of developers' communication or are players unaware of the kind of tasks and priorities and restrictions that the developers have to deal with? I mean, they have to juggle between solving bugs, creating new contents, testing, analysing data, accomplishing some other ad-hoc tasks they are required to do, dealing with change in priorities of the tasks that they have to do, dealing with tasks that were not in their original schedule, attending meeting probably every week, submitting report, meeting deadlines set by the Project Manager etc... Just debugging alone, I figured, takes a good chunk of time because debugging is not just about sifting through a thousand lines of codes and making a few lines of changes, but the changes itself could affect the way the rest of the systems work, as experienced by some players. That explain why some bugs have existed for a while and why some bugs have still yet to be solved. Also, they (a small team of developers) are dealing with 3 different platforms.

Tapping "problem" has existed for a year, as proven by a poster who resurrected a thread made in March 2017. I would think that tapping problem affects a small pool of players, which could be determined using a few factors like the number of tappers involved in the slice and brackets involved, the original position of tappers in the 4th clear, the difference between their original position in the 4th clear vs the final clear. "Tappers", which I would redefine as anyone clearing more than the intended 4+3 clear to gain any form of perceived advantage affects not just the top 3 or top 5 placements, but also in top 25 or 50. Anyone who intended to do more than 4+3 clear so that they could squeeze in for the next better placement rewards are stilll tappers and affects the ecosystem. It's not about the top players, but also someone in top 50 or even top 100 fighting for placement rewards. Players who don't complain about tapping doesn't mean that they are not affected by tapping, but for some reasons, they chose not to or are unware of such problem. Even if they chose not to, it doesn't mean that developers should disregard them.

For those pressing the developers for an update, let's assume a working day of 5 days per week and a 10 hours work week for the developers, about 14 working days have passed since the end of the trial. Any reasonable human beings would be aware that the developers have to deal with other tasks with much higher priority and they definitely didn't spend the whole 14 days to analyse the impact the trial has on the community, and by community, I believe they don't mean the handful of players who are constantly complaining about tappers,  but really the "community" as a whole. If you could understand this, then it's good. If not, then continue to be dissatisfied with the progress of developers or MPQ.

To give you a ray of hope, they are probably going to announce the end of tapping together with the new change.

bluewolf

Hey, there's a boss event next.  No tapping there.  Just wanted to point out that the increased frequency of boss events reduces tapping already.  (Maybe I did that already somewhere....)

And someone probably pointed this out already, but tapping is not just a decision by the player.  If you can be in a top 10 alliance, you get an LT from alliance rewards in SCL9.  So you really are tapping for 2 LTs for a lot of tappers.  It's still not worthwhile to me, but there might be alliance pressure on players to tap.  And there probably is.

Smart80

HoundofShadow said:

Tapping "problem" has existed for a year, as proven by a poster who resurrected a thread made in March 2017. I would think that tapping problem affects a small pool of players, which could be determined using a few factors like the number of tappers involved in the slice and brackets involved, the original position of tappers in the 4th clear, the difference between their original position in the 4th clear vs the final clear. "Tappers", which I would redefine as anyone clearing more than the intended 4+3 clear to gain any form of perceived advantage affects not just the top 3 or top 5 placements, but also in top 25 or 50. Anyone who intended to do more than 4+3 clear so that they could squeeze in for the next better placement rewards are stilll tappers and affects the ecosystem. It's not about the top players, but also someone in top 50 or even top 100 fighting for placement rewards. Players who don't complain about tapping doesn't mean that they are not affected by tapping, but for some reasons, they chose not to or are unware of such problem. Even if they chose not to, it doesn't mean that developers should disregard them.

I think those outside, lets say top 20, are most likely unaware or uninterested in tapping, cause green checking usually gets you there. They are probably better served by hitting all nodes a 7th time, not by tapping one node. And once more, just because it would only affect the top 1%, doesnt make it unimportant. Its a competitive game, the top placement should be important imo, or they might as well remove placement altogether...

HoundofShadow said:

For those pressing the developers for an update, let's assume a working day of 5 days per week and a 10 hours work week for the developers, about 14 working days have passed since the end of the trial. Any reasonable human beings would be aware that the developers have to deal with other tasks with much higher priority and they definitely didn't spend the whole 14 days to analyse the impact the trial has on the community and by community, I believe they don't mean the handful of players who are constantly complaining about tappers, but really the "community" as a whole. If you could understand this, then it's good. If not, then continue to be dissatisfied with the progress of developers or MPQ.

I dont believe its very unreasonable to expect some sort of response after 2 weeks, in any type of business.

HoundofShadow said:

To give you a ray of hope, they are probably going to announce the end of tapping together with the new change.

Is this based on anything?

bluewolf said:

Hey, there's a boss event next.  No tapping there.  Just wanted to point out that the increased frequency of boss events reduces tapping already.  (Maybe I did that already somewhere....)

And someone probably pointed this out already, but tapping is not just a decision by the player.  If you can be in a top 10 alliance, you get an LT from alliance rewards in SCL9.  So you really are tapping for 2 LTs for a lot of tappers.  It's still not worthwhile to me, but there might be alliance pressure on players to tap.  And there probably is.

Perhaps its meant as a joke, but thats like saying 48h subs are great way to reduce tapping....
And surely extra points are always appreciated in any alliance, but i can personally say I havent been pressured into tapping..

ZeroKarma

Daredevil217 said:

ZeroKarma said:

Whats the downside? I’m waiting for the pro-tapping argument. Not a single person has posted and said, “Listen, I want to be able to play trivial nodes for 5 hours a day, but they shut off the prologue so I do it in PVE.” or “I believe that PvE should be determined by free time with no regards for speed and roster. That’s fair.”

You might not like the arguments or may not have read the thread, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. 

tiomono said:

What is a downside to tapping leaving? 

Many of the anti tapping arguments are coming from the top 10% or less.

If tapping is gone and something unexpected happens and you miss a day of an event what happens? If it's not the last day and tapping is still in place you could potentially save some of your progression woes. 

Yes tapping technically affects everyone. But the only people to actually notice the effects are people in the top 10 or 20. The people tapping will still be up in those ranks without tapping. 

If anyone that thinks tapping going away magically gives them a shot they are forgetting the tappers mentality. That mentality is they are willing to do whatever to be the best. They will optimize their game without tapping and that top 10 to 20 will not drastically change.

Tiomono's argument is that he might miss a day of an event, and tap to make up for it to hit progression. So tapping is like a make-up test in case you slept through an exam and don't want to fail a class. That's a bit of a reach if you're looking for a convincing argument to keep tapping around. In  fact, I don't think you like that argument either. 

Much of the discussion up to this point, including on your end, has been about people putting in additional "effort" to get the best prizes. And now the reason to keep it around is because people need to catch up after not putting in the necessary "effort" to open up the game and play for a day? 

Perhaps I didn't remember to clear my nodes on time. Perhaps a I only hit a node 3 times instead of 4. Perhaps I hit a node 5 times instead of 4. Perhaps I was clearing Florida and threw my phone in the toilet! 

If that happens, maybe I don't get progression. Maybe I don't place well. That's kinda the point. 

HoundofShadow

They have already pre-empt (9th march) the players what they are going to do after the trial:

"Hi Everyone,

In the upcoming Hearts of Darkness Story event, we will be making the minimum amount of points a mission is worth set to 0. Points will continue to regenerate at the same rate it is currently.

The Story event after Hearts of Darkness will return to the current system. We will evaluate the results from the Hearts of Darkness trial run, in order to see how players were impacted, as well as taking in feedback from the community."

The event ended somewhere on 13th March. 

Brigby last replied on 23rd March. Between 13th March to 23rd March, 6 business days passed by. 

"I'm afraid at this moment I don't have any updates or news to communicate to players about the initial trial run. Once I receive any additional information though, I'll be sure to let players know."

So, they have responded and all those with a high stake in PvE have to do is to wait for the result.

To the other question, it was based on a ray of hope that I found on the sky. 

Daredevil217

ZeroKarma said:

Daredevil217 said:

ZeroKarma said:

Whats the downside? I’m waiting for the pro-tapping argument. Not a single person has posted and said, “Listen, I want to be able to play trivial nodes for 5 hours a day, but they shut off the prologue so I do it in PVE.” or “I believe that PvE should be determined by free time with no regards for speed and roster. That’s fair.”

You might not like the arguments or may not have read the thread, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. 

tiomono said:

What is a downside to tapping leaving? 

Many of the anti tapping arguments are coming from the top 10% or less.

If tapping is gone and something unexpected happens and you miss a day of an event what happens? If it's not the last day and tapping is still in place you could potentially save some of your progression woes. 

Yes tapping technically affects everyone. But the only people to actually notice the effects are people in the top 10 or 20. The people tapping will still be up in those ranks without tapping. 

If anyone that thinks tapping going away magically gives them a shot they are forgetting the tappers mentality. That mentality is they are willing to do whatever to be the best. They will optimize their game without tapping and that top 10 to 20 will not drastically change.

Tiomono's argument is that he might miss a day of an event, and tap to make up for it to hit progression. So tapping is like a make-up test in case you slept through an exam and don't want to fail a class. That's a bit of a reach if you're looking for a convincing argument to keep tapping around. In  fact, I don't think you like that argument either. 

Much of the discussion up to this point, including on your end, has been about people putting in additional "effort" to get the best prizes. And now the reason to keep it around is because people need to catch up after not putting in the necessary "effort" to open up the game and play for a day? 

Perhaps I didn't remember to clear my nodes on time. Perhaps a I only hit a node 3 times instead of 4. Perhaps I hit a node 5 times instead of 4. Perhaps I was clearing Florida and threw my phone in the toilet! 

If that happens, maybe I don't get progression. Maybe I don't place well. That's kinda the point. 

His point if I read it correctly is that if life happens, and an emergency occurs, he gets called into work, he simply sleep in, etc. he can tap to help make up the points. I assumed in his scenario he wasn’t intentionally being lazy or forgoing effort. Rather, in the case that something in real life occurs that causes him to miss out on progression, he has tapping to help with those points. 

The make up exam is a great example. You don’t not study just because you have a make up as an option. You still put the work in, but if an emergency occurs and you can’t make it, you can still pass/progress. 

As to your last point, last event I totally spaced and forgot clears 5-7 in a sub pushing me out of my usual T10. Oh well. I refused to tap and just lived with the results even though it would have been easy to tap given Grocket was boosted and all the goon nodes. So under either system if my phone goes in the toilet i possibly don’t place/progress because of how I choose to play. But just because I don’t tap, that doesn’t mean I can’t see beyond my own worldview/what benefits me and acknowledge how it could be beneficial for someone else or why they’d want to keep it around.  

Daredevil217

Also can we please put an end to this “tapping affects everyone” nonsense. It simply isn’t true.

There are plenty of people who play PVP / DDQ only who are not affected. 

You know what I meant dude.  I obviously meant 100% of PVE players, where tapping is actually a thing!

Except there are plenty of lower clearance levels where tapping doesn’t even exist. I play in 8 exclusively and there are many times I see no tappers all. So... those players are not affected by it. 

You know what I REALLY meant!  I obviously was referring to high SCL like 9 where it is actually happening. And the occasional 8/7 brackets as well...

So the top tier of the player base?

Yes! But that’s still 1,000 players in every bracket.  And do you know how often it flips?

So someone who places 345 instead of 325 is really being affected by this?  I mean that person put in the same effort and got the same rewards and the same amount of points either way. Literally nothing changes for them. 

Yes, but it’s a trickle down effect!  What about the poor person who places 51 and would have been top 50 if not for those dirty tappers!

The way I understand it... and correct me if I’m wrong... but tappers are people with multiple champed 5*, they are playing optimally every node except the one they tap and can clear with lightning speed. Without tapping, THAT guy is going to fall 50+ places allowing that poor person in 51st place to eek into top 50?  That’s how this works?

I... err...

The reality is no where near 100% of the playerbase is affected. The people really affected are in fact the very top of the leaderboards. The top 1-5%. Ending tapping will only shuffle the deck at the top 1%, but those tappers aren’t going to fall out of top 20 meaning anyone who places after them will still do so after. 

Again, I get not liking tapping because you stand to benefit from the change. But just own it as such. This is typical in places of privilege. People often act like they don’t have it or are looking out for the little guy when really it’s all about serving your self-interests and ensuring you stand to profit. Nothing wrong with it. Just own it. That’s all I’ve been saying from the beginning. 

Sm0keyJ0e

I find it funny that the most staunch defenders of tapping don't actually tap, and in fact have also admitted to not liking the practice. So much energy on a subject that doesn't affect you in any way! Just own it--you have an opinion on a matter that won't affect how you play the game. I happily admit that the practice of tapping affects my placement, hence why I share my opinion.

Through 11 pages of posts on the subject, we have yet to hear from actual tappers, yet they are all lurking here...

Phumade

aesthetocyst said:

Again, this is off my head, don't take the details as Gospel. I hope this serves to illustrate how over the entire course of this game, this issue has lingered, and how it just grows and grows. Every move the devs make, it's a creeping shadow. 

They dropped the 20iso reward to end grinding iso via tapping. They took the in pts off easy nodes, they just need to stop taking half measures and finish the work.

Supposedly they worry about ties. In this test, I trust it was proven that ties, so long as the nodes refresh, are not a problem.*

__________________

* They aren't a problem anyway, as there are no ties; but once upon a time they had an event with no placement rewards but no point regen. Players complained about apparent "ties", wheedling for unearned rewards. The devs, inexplicably, caved and gave in, creating precedent that has handcuffed them (in their minds) ever since.

great summary that tracks with my experiences.

two things to add.

1.  you should add the date when the math was broken down for dummies.  until the proof was pubilized,  the execution was poor and most players couldn't differentiate between the guy who clears early for Real life, vs an actual strategy designed  to win the sub

2.  simplifying hte 5e node in scl7 actually helps 4* rosters much more than 5* players.  At some point, a 5* is overkill and doesn't offer any incremental benefits over a 4* roster that can also 1 shot the enemy.  i.e. against lvl 235 enemies,  4* suffer very little handicap compared to their bigger and beefier cousins.

The rockett

@aesthetocyst you can freely use my name or dates or data or anything we have talked about.  You have my permission.