Please nerf 5* Gambit
Comments
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I believe I've seen some posts which stated that the beta version of Gambit generated Purple and Red if you made a match-4 or greater. Just bring that back, because now the AP generation is tied to the condition of actually matching tiles (which is what the game is about, yeah?), and remove the restriction of teammates unable to use Red or Purple skills. Building on from that, make the conditional AP generation a passive. The active part can be like what others have mentioned: have him create 4 or 5 Red or Purple Charged tiles for 5 or 6AP. Ta-da: Gambit is no longer broken, but he's still someone to be feared.8
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j0nats said:
oml, sentry/hood, xforce and thora had their time in the sun before they got super nerfed.This is not at all the case with Gambit. Prior nerf's had been mainly done to break up an overpowered synergy between two characters ( Sentry-bombing, Patchneto etc) or to rebalance a problematic single ability like X-force wolvies surgical strike or OML's true healing (which was a problem for D3's bottom line, not ours).
Most Nerf's have been far overdone and unnecessary going way overboard. Most nerf's were also never wanted or called for by the community like the current campaign to nerf Gambit is.
Gambit is not only guilty of having a god-mode, broken OP combo with Bolt.... but he is the first standalone character who is so effortlessly dominant in all areas that he renders every other character in the game useless and obsolete. He is a one man army who is a perfect nightmare on offense, defense, board control, overwrites and AP drain & gain for starters. With no weakness in sight he is clearly a 6* or meant to be a 6* killer of sorts for future use. He overpowers the game in an incredibly unhealthy way.
None of the characters who have been nerfed before have been such a large scale threat to so many areas of the game. These prior characters & pairing were only the meta due to how fast they could kill / help you hop quicker etc. In this game speed and time management are the dominating stats to success. Panthos, X-thoress, Sentry bombs & patchneto were all easily beatable, never posed a threat and as solo characters weren't much without their better halves.
I don't think anyone wants him nerfed into oblivion but some big sacrifices will need to be made to keep him fair, balanced and in-line with the rest of the tier. He can still be the meta or the best, but not in the capacity of near invincibility he currently resides.
#nerfgambit2018
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BlackBoltRocks said:I believe I've seen some posts which stated that the beta version of Gambit generated Purple and Red if you made a match-4 or greater. Just bring that back, because now the AP generation is tied to the condition of actually matching tiles (which is what the game is about, yeah?), and remove the restriction of teammates unable to use Red or Purple skills. Building on from that, make the conditional AP generation a passive. The active part can be like what others have mentioned: have him create 4 or 5 Red or Purple Charged tiles for 5 or 6AP. Ta-da: Gambit is no longer broken, but he's still someone to be feared.
This is also a great idea coupled with dropping gambits overall health pool a bit & tweaking his purple as well. Definitely something to consider.
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Jonny1Punch said:BlackBoltRocks said:I believe I've seen some posts which stated that the beta version of Gambit generated Purple and Red if you made a match-4 or greater. Just bring that back, because now the AP generation is tied to the condition of actually matching tiles (which is what the game is about, yeah?), and remove the restriction of teammates unable to use Red or Purple skills. Building on from that, make the conditional AP generation a passive. The active part can be like what others have mentioned: have him create 4 or 5 Red or Purple Charged tiles for 5 or 6AP. Ta-da: Gambit is no longer broken, but he's still someone to be feared.
This is also a great idea coupled with dropping gambits overall health pool a bit & tweaking his purple as well. Definitely something to consider.
I like your idea and I am going to build on it. So let's see something like this would be cool.
For 5 black AP create 4 red/purple charged tiles (one more than his 3 version).
Passive: Every match-4 adds one red and one purple to his pool. Every match-5 adds two red and two purple to his pool.
What about this? This rewards not only match-4 but also match-5 even more! And his active can still be used with his red, so this ability would still be quite good, but not broken good.
Edit: I will add that my favourite character ever was Classic Magneto when he was broken, not because of patchneto, I didnt care about the strikes, but because of the fun it was trying to always get 5 blue AP for each 5 blue spend. Also Charlie's Angels was my favourite combo for similar reasons (trying to get as many match-5 as possible with BW purple).0 -
Currently Gambit's Black:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of the turn, gain 2 Purple AP, 2 Red AP, and destroy 2 enemy AP from a random color.
If you want to nerf him, but still make him the #1 character in the game (which is fair given the money people spent):
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.
That's it. It would function like a better version of Wasp Blue. No AP destruction, and tying it to a countdown means that you can turn the tide by matching, overwriting or destroying the countdowns as they pop up. You also remove the enemy AP destruction. That's an obvious nerf, whereas the last nerf was just a literal re-balance (lateral move). Actually, make the random countdown appear on red/purple only and you start removing more of those colors from the board one turn at a time so less of those colored AP for gambit to collect via matching or his Red power.
He'd still be the best character off the strength of Purple/Red alone, but the game goes back to matching tiles to defeat him rather than "there's nothing I can do".
But because I don't trust D3 to not nerf him to the bottom of the barrel like his 3* counterpart. I might be convinced no nerf at all is the better move.
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This would still be OP. If it was a 3 turn CD tile and 1 purple OR 1 red AP would be more in line with current 5*s. Keep in mind his ability to overwrite special tiles with his purple makes him one of the strongest in the tier.Daredevil217 said:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.
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I like it as a start. I’m sure it would require some QC testing to find the right balance for the levels in between. Perhaps making it a two turn countdown till Level 3, then that leaves one AP for each color per level.Daredevil217 said:(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.
That's it. It would function like a better version of Wasp Blue. No AP destruction, and tying it to a countdown means that you can turn the tide by matching, overwriting or destroying the countdowns as they pop up. You also remove the enemy AP destruction. That's an obvious nerf, whereas the last nerf was just a literal re-balance (lateral move). Actually, make the random countdown appear on red/purple only and you start removing more of those colors from the board one turn at a time so less of those colored AP for gambit to collect via matching or his Red power.
He'd still be the best character off the strength of Purple/Red alone, but the game goes back to matching tiles to defeat him rather than "there's nothing I can do".
But because I don't trust D3 to not nerf him to the bottom of the barrel like his 3* counterpart. I might be convinced no nerf at all is the better move.
Alternatively since this is a more fragile means of AP generation, either keeping the AP Drain, making it AP destruction, or raising the AP back to 3 & 3 MAY be reasonable.
Keeping the tiles tied to Red or Purple would certainly make it more manageable on defensive, or even locking them to Black tiles as that has a higher chance of getting in his own teammates way for AP generation.
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The other problem with this suggestion would be the OP synergy with Hawkeye. Every time the countdown tile expires Gambit would gain 2 red and 2 purple. Hawkeye would also gain 2 red and 3 blue. For Sim add any of his usual 5* partners or even the likes of Carol/Coulson.PorkBelly said:
This would still be OP. If it was a 3 turn CD tile and 1 purple OR 1 red AP would be more in line with current 5*s. Keep in mind his ability to overwrite special tiles with his purple makes him one of the strongest in the tier.Daredevil217 said:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.0 -
Simple fix, just make it a two-turn repeater tile.CharlieCroker said:
The other problem with this suggestion would be the OP synergy with Hawkeye. Every time the countdown tile expires Gambit would gain 2 red and 2 purple. Hawkeye would also gain 2 red and 3 blue. For Sim add any of his usual 5* partners or even the likes of Carol/Coulson.PorkBelly said: no
This would still be OP. If it was a 3 turn CD tile and 1 purple OR 1 red AP would be more in line with current 5*s. Keep in mind his ability to overwrite special tiles with his purple makes him one of the strongest in the tier.Daredevil217 said:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.4 -
Can't argue with that, it's why repeater tiles were introduced.Rhycar said:
Simple fix, just make it a two-turn repeater tile.CharlieCroker said:
The other problem with this suggestion would be the OP synergy with Hawkeye. Every time the countdown tile expires Gambit would gain 2 red and 2 purple. Hawkeye would also gain 2 red and 3 blue. For Sim add any of his usual 5* partners or even the likes of Carol/Coulson.PorkBelly said: no
This would still be OP. If it was a 3 turn CD tile and 1 purple OR 1 red AP would be more in line with current 5*s. Keep in mind his ability to overwrite special tiles with his purple makes him one of the strongest in the tier.Daredevil217 said:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.
But I'm still not a fan of the countdown/repeater fix here. At present a Gambit vs Gambit match is just a case of matching more red/purple than the Ai and waiting for the enemy Gambit to fire first (unless Bolt is present). This would just randomise things slightly more as you might prioritise matching the enemy tile over gaining your own ap, and would arguably make a 50% Thor the ideal partner due to the added chance of matching the enemy's repeater tile. Not sure if it would help a great deal if you don't have Gambit, or stop people running baby Gambits over higher levelled previously viable options.
I really don't know what the solution is here, given the need to balance Gambit but also appease those who have spent to get his covers. Perhaps a simple reduction to gaining 1 red 1 purple and draining 1 random coloured ap (i.e. don't target team up ap) would help.0 -
Yes you’d still see Gambit everywhere because he’d still be the best character in the game. Just like Panthos before him, people use whatever is best whether it is broken or not.CharlieCroker said:
Can't argue with that, it's why repeater tiles were introduced.Rhycar said:
Simple fix, just make it a two-turn repeater tile.CharlieCroker said:
The other problem with this suggestion would be the OP synergy with Hawkeye. Every time the countdown tile expires Gambit would gain 2 red and 2 purple. Hawkeye would also gain 2 red and 3 blue. For Sim add any of his usual 5* partners or even the likes of Carol/Coulson.PorkBelly said: no
This would still be OP. If it was a 3 turn CD tile and 1 purple OR 1 red AP would be more in line with current 5*s. Keep in mind his ability to overwrite special tiles with his purple makes him one of the strongest in the tier.Daredevil217 said:
(Passive) Gambit finds an advantage for himself at any cost. At the start of your turn, Gambit creates a random 1-turn Countdown. When this tile expires gain 2 Purple AP and 2 Red AP.
But I'm still not a fan of the countdown/repeater fix here. At present a Gambit vs Gambit match is just a case of matching more red/purple than the Ai and waiting for the enemy Gambit to fire first (unless Bolt is present). This would just randomise things slightly more as you might prioritise matching the enemy tile over gaining your own ap, and would arguably make a 50% Thor the ideal partner due to the added chance of matching the enemy's repeater tile. Not sure if it would help a great deal if you don't have Gambit, or stop people running baby Gambits over higher levelled previously viable options.
I really don't know what the solution is here, given the need to balance Gambit but also appease those who have spent to get his covers. Perhaps a simple reduction to gaining 1 red 1 purple and draining 1 random coloured ap (i.e. don't target team up ap) would help.
What this does is adds strategy (“do I match the repeater or get my own AP?” being one example you shared) and makes it less automatic. But yes, he’d still be everywhere. Nerf him to oblivion and someone else takes up the void.
Someone earlier mentioned older players not liking OP Gambit because so many newer players have him, have “caught up” to the meta, and are taking prizes from said vets. I’m not a 5* player at all, but thought it was an interesting theory. If there’s any truth to it maybe they do nerf him to oblivion to keep the old guard (their highest paying customers) happy. It’ll be interesting to see. Mine is max covered without a drop of iso invested.0 -
His black can't remain as passive AP generation, its just too strong.
You already got Red and Purple that are pretty top-tier, making black like the 3* wouldnt be the end of the world. He'd just be really good instead of Godlike.
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I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting. We're asking for a reasonable rebalance so he's at least on the same tier as thanos, bb, bp, dd, thor, etc. Right now he's far above and beyond everyone else. They slowed him down but the ap destruction is without a doubt a buff. If they change his black, his read and purple can remain the same without warping the environment so much.1
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Well, today we are about 2 weeks from Gambit moving to Classics, as Engines of Destruction closes in about 7 hours. So, assuming the nerf happens as soon as the end of the season starting a week from Thursday, we have about 38 more days with Godbit in game. (That is, Gambit will move to Classics in the middle of the next PVP season, and rebalances happen at the start of seasons, March 8 in this case.) I wonder how long this thread will be by then.
I hope that the developers are paying attention to the fact that people continue to make suggestions about how to rebalance him, months after he entered the game and even as we have 3 new 5*'s since him. You know who doesn't have a 34 page thread talking about how to rebalance the character? Doc Ock. Spidey. Daredevil. Gladiathor. Angel (OK, his is shorter, but that's because he needs a buff, and a weak character is less of an issue for the game than an OP one). Ghost Rider is new but seems basically fine (tweaks can always be debated).1 -
I don't think anyone is suggesting that people are asking for that. It's that the company's track record is to nerf into oblivion. So many people can't play PVP because nerfed OML is their only 5. XFW is a bottom tier 4*. Sentry is a bottom tier 3*.ViralCore said:I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting.
But those are all older characters, right?
So, let's look at 3* Gambit. We asked them to fix Gambattery and they completely gutted the character to the point that he's definitely bottom 3 if not worst in tier.
So while no one is asking for a nerf into oblivion. It's likely to happen. Then again Kingpin's buff was a nerf and 5* Gambit's nerf was a buff, so who knows!!??
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Remove the self-harm on 3* Gambit, is he really that terrible? I don't think so.Daredevil217 said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that people are asking for that. It's that the company's track record is to nerf into oblivion. So many people can't play PVP because nerfed OML is their only 5. XFW is a bottom tier 4*. Sentry is a bottom tier 3*.ViralCore said:I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting.
But those are all older characters, right?
So, let's look at 3* Gambit. We asked them to fix Gambattery and they completely gutted the character to the point that he's definitely bottom 3 if not worst in tier.
So while no one is asking for a nerf into oblivion. It's likely to happen. Then again Kingpin's buff was a nerf and 5* Gambit's nerf was a buff, so who knows!!??
5 AP to make 3 charged tiles is good, and you free up red/purple skills for others when it make more sense. He becomes quite a good battery except you actually have to make some matches for the AP.
They'd need to tweak it for the 5* of course (4 tiles, no self-harm, maybe another effect (burst heal?))0 -
Your point is “if we buff the awful nerf job D3 did, it wouldn’t be that bad”. Isn’t that true of all characters they neutered?sinnerjfl said:
Remove the self-harm on 3* Gambit, is he really that terrible? I don't think so.Daredevil217 said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that people are asking for that. It's that the company's track record is to nerf into oblivion. So many people can't play PVP because nerfed OML is their only 5. XFW is a bottom tier 4*. Sentry is a bottom tier 3*.ViralCore said:I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting.
But those are all older characters, right?
So, let's look at 3* Gambit. We asked them to fix Gambattery and they completely gutted the character to the point that he's definitely bottom 3 if not worst in tier.
So while no one is asking for a nerf into oblivion. It's likely to happen. Then again Kingpin's buff was a nerf and 5* Gambit's nerf was a buff, so who knows!!??
5 AP to make 3 charged tiles is good, and you free up red/purple skills for others when it make more sense. He becomes quite a good battery except you actually have to make some matches for the AP.
They'd need to tweak it for the 5* of course (4 tiles, no self-harm, maybe another effect (burst heal?))
But I’ll bite...
Yes... even without the team damage he’d still be bottom tier (just not AS bad). His red and purple were already super weak powers in the tier, especially compared to the 5*. His purple doesn’t overwrite and his red barely does damage. The ONE thing he had going for himself is that his weak powers were self-fueled so he could at least spam them. So they take his one good power (black) and add a team damage component to it? Just awful. Anyone can see that. All they had to do was remove the unintended exploit. Same as they did with 5* Gambit. Instead they gutted him while buffing the 5.
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Daredevil217 said:
Your point is “if we buff the awful nerf job D3 did, it wouldn’t be that bad”. Isn’t that true of all characters they neutered?sinnerjfl said:
Remove the self-harm on 3* Gambit, is he really that terrible? I don't think so.Daredevil217 said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that people are asking for that. It's that the company's track record is to nerf into oblivion. So many people can't play PVP because nerfed OML is their only 5. XFW is a bottom tier 4*. Sentry is a bottom tier 3*.ViralCore said:I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting.
But those are all older characters, right?
So, let's look at 3* Gambit. We asked them to fix Gambattery and they completely gutted the character to the point that he's definitely bottom 3 if not worst in tier.
So while no one is asking for a nerf into oblivion. It's likely to happen. Then again Kingpin's buff was a nerf and 5* Gambit's nerf was a buff, so who knows!!??
5 AP to make 3 charged tiles is good, and you free up red/purple skills for others when it make more sense. He becomes quite a good battery except you actually have to make some matches for the AP.
They'd need to tweak it for the 5* of course (4 tiles, no self-harm, maybe another effect (burst heal?))
But I’ll bite...
Yes... even without the team damage he’d still be bottom tier (just not AS bad). His red and purple were already super weak powers in the tier, especially compared to the 5*. His purple doesn’t overwrite and his red barely does damage. The ONE thing he had going for himself is that his weak powers were self-fueled so he could at least spam them. So they take his one good power (black) and add a team damage component to it? Just awful. Anyone can see that. All they had to do was remove the unintended exploit. Same as they did with 5* Gambit. Instead they gutted him while buffing the 5.
How exactly is 3* Gambit definitely bottom 3 if not worst in the tier? Off the top of my head - Ragnarok, Dr. Ock, She-Hulk, Colossus. Probably Angel too, but I don't have him champed yet.
His team damage is only half of what Kamala can heal. Also, he only damages teammates, not himself, so pairing with true healing characters like Patch, Daken or Groot and Rocket should work. All 3 of them make strike tiles for his red...
His red may not do damage as the 5* does, but the board shake and AP generation is still the same. It may require some other way of helping him get red AP to really abuse it in similar way the 5* can, but again, there are characters like Ironman and Cyclops in the same tier that can do that.
Only his purple looks somewhat slower to me, without auto AP generation.
This part might be slightly OT so I'll put it in spoilers. Though maybe not, as some have already suggested (in this thread too, I think) that 3* version of nerf would suffice for 5* too with some minor adjustments?So for me, Gambit 's strengths come to light when his allies can:
1) make strike tiles
2) cover 5 or 6 colors with active powers
3) have 1 or even 2 extra powers that can shake the board, that are not red or black (most such powers are not anyway)
As an example, here are some 3* teams with Gambit I'd be happy to bring to a fight against any 3* team of similar levels:
Kamala + IM40/Cyclops
IM40 + Patch/R&G/Beast
SWitch + Beast
Storm + Mystiqe
To conclude, my point is Gambit is closer to mid/high tier of 3*s and definitely not bottom. He may not be as strong by himself as some top tier 3*s are, but as a support, he can be right behind in the next tier.1 -
Agreed, make his black non-passive. Have it cost 5 black but it creates an instant 5 red and 5 purple (I'm on the fence about deleting any AP).sinnerjfl said:His black can't remain as passive AP generation, its just too strong.
You already got Red and Purple that are pretty top-tier, making black like the 3* wouldnt be the end of the world. He'd just be really good instead of Godlike.
Also take away the block on using other reds and purples. 5* land needs a good battery and the game overall is light on Purple AP batteries.2 -
I just wrote why he’s a bad character. Three bad powers? I don’t want to rewrite it. I love Ock. Was using him in wins based when I didn’t have to worry about retals and I’m a solid 4* player. He’s niche in that he’s a special tile killer but has his use there like Medusa in 4 land. Rags is also bottom tier. You are severely sleeping on Shulk. In 3 land and even in early 4 I remember using her to punch WAY WAY above my weight class ensuring my opponent never got to fire an active ability. She is one of the better defensive characters in the whole game. Can’t speak to Angel because I think most are comparing him at 166 to characters on their roster near 266. I know I’d take him over Gambit though. Colossus is pretty garbage as well but at least he can fastball and hit hard with red. The other character I hate you didn’t mention is Sentry. To me Rags, Sentry and Gambit are bottom 3 with Colossus in the same bottom tier. Ock a tier above and Shulk two tiers above.Kolence said:Daredevil217 said:
Your point is “if we buff the awful nerf job D3 did, it wouldn’t be that bad”. Isn’t that true of all characters they neutered?sinnerjfl said:
Remove the self-harm on 3* Gambit, is he really that terrible? I don't think so.Daredevil217 said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that people are asking for that. It's that the company's track record is to nerf into oblivion. So many people can't play PVP because nerfed OML is their only 5. XFW is a bottom tier 4*. Sentry is a bottom tier 3*.ViralCore said:I don't think anyone is asking for a "nerf into oblivion" like some are suggesting.
But those are all older characters, right?
So, let's look at 3* Gambit. We asked them to fix Gambattery and they completely gutted the character to the point that he's definitely bottom 3 if not worst in tier.
So while no one is asking for a nerf into oblivion. It's likely to happen. Then again Kingpin's buff was a nerf and 5* Gambit's nerf was a buff, so who knows!!??
5 AP to make 3 charged tiles is good, and you free up red/purple skills for others when it make more sense. He becomes quite a good battery except you actually have to make some matches for the AP.
They'd need to tweak it for the 5* of course (4 tiles, no self-harm, maybe another effect (burst heal?))
But I’ll bite...
Yes... even without the team damage he’d still be bottom tier (just not AS bad). His red and purple were already super weak powers in the tier, especially compared to the 5*. His purple doesn’t overwrite and his red barely does damage. The ONE thing he had going for himself is that his weak powers were self-fueled so he could at least spam them. So they take his one good power (black) and add a team damage component to it? Just awful. Anyone can see that. All they had to do was remove the unintended exploit. Same as they did with 5* Gambit. Instead they gutted him while buffing the 5.
How exactly is 3* Gambit definitely bottom 3 if not worst in the tier? Off the top of my head - Ragnarok, Dr. Ock, She-Hulk, Colossus. Probably Angel too, but I don't have him champed yet.
His team damage is only half of what Kamala can heal. Also, he only damages teammates, not himself, so pairing with true healing characters like Patch, Daken or Groot and Rocket should work. All 3 of them make strike tiles for his red...
His red may not do damage as the 5* does, but the board shake and AP generation is still the same. It may require some other way of helping him get red AP to really abuse it in similar way the 5* can, but again, there are characters like Ironman and Cyclops in the same tier that can do that.
Only his purple looks somewhat slower to me, without auto AP generation.
This part might be slightly OT so I'll put it in spoilers. Though maybe not, as some have already suggested (in this thread too, I think) that 3* version of nerf would suffice for 5* too with some minor adjustments?So for me, Gambit 's strengths come to light when his allies can:
1) make strike tiles
2) cover 5 or 6 colors with active powers
3) have 1 or even 2 extra powers that can shake the board, that are not red or black (most such powers are not anyway)
As an example, here are some 3* teams with Gambit I'd be happy to bring to a fight against any 3* team of similar levels:
Kamala + IM40/Cyclops
IM40 + Patch/R&G/Beast
SWitch + Beast
Storm + Mystiqe
To conclude, my point is Gambit is closer to mid/high tier of 3*s and definitely not bottom. He may not be as strong by himself as some top tier 3*s are, but as a support, he can be right behind in the next tier.0
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