Please nerf 5* Gambit

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  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    John Wayne74 said:
    alphabeta said:
    John Wayne74 said:
    Do you guys remember that game we use to play?  I think it was called Marvel Puzzle Quest.  
    Not really it was called Thanos Puzzle Quest and before that OML Puzzle Quest
    I hear people say that all the time?  Maybe it was MMR for them/you or maybe it was my MMR, but I saw many other teams before Gambit.  Not just a fixed set with the same toon over and over and over again.  Now all I see is gambit teams.  I have to skip more than 15 times per fight to maybe queue something else.  Sometimes, that doesn’t even work.  Never had my queues so clogged by any one or even two toons before.  But that’s just my experience.  Can’t speak for the masses.  But from what I hear on Line, it would seem I’m not the only one experiencing a more finite set of gambit only queues.

    Also adding fuel to that would be that no other toon offered the float ability that he does.  More people float now because they have him and he makes them take less unfriendly hits.  No other single or set of toons ever got skipped like gambit does either.
    I've had the same experience. Queue full of required 3*/Gambit with either Bolt, Hawk, or Thanos. Occasionally I find required 3*/Gambit with someone other than B, H, and T. And even rarer I found a team without Gambit. I took on a 540 Parker, 548 Miles, 412 Squirrel Girl team over all the 45x Gambits I queue. And I won!!!! Using my 463 DD, 451 Bolt, 398 SG, but I struggle against 45x Gambit. I usually even sub my Bolt out for my 451 Thanos against Gambit teams.

    Gambit is absolutely OP if my team can beat a 540 Parker/548 Miles but struggles against 45x Gambits.......
  • SidWXL2
    SidWXL2 Posts: 2 Just Dropped In
    The change was a nerf.  Gambit went from practically unbeatable to just being super-annoying.  Any Gambit fight is a nightmare of attrition.  Health packs sales must be soaring.  Maybe now they can afford to go back to win based progression even though it severely impacts their shield sales.
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    It’s not a nerf.  Compare every other nerf of recent memory - 3* gambit, OML, Thora. XFW;  this was an “attempt” at a nerf with the added benefit of yet another unconditional passive.  This is a buff, and has made it even worse in some ways since you can easily never collect enough AP to counter him.  If you’re not running a mirror, it’s awful.
  • Fchjon
    Fchjon Posts: 1 Just Dropped In
    So thankful I quit half a year ago. Lol
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    * - The following is not me trying to claim that Gambit is not OP, or the current best 5 for PvP or whatever else you guys are saying. The change sure looked like a buff to me, yet I'm still hearing people say it's hurting them and they are having a harder time, so it's not just pure upside. 

    To those saying all they are seeing is Gambit everywhere, part of that is definitely a testament to his power level. Even those with much higher leveled 5s are resigned to using him either as a counter to others or simply because he is faster. However I think many people are overlooking the other factor, which is just that many more people have Gambit than have had nearly any other 5* in the past, except for maybe the original 3. "All I see are OML/PHX" was a common complaint for a long time. Yes they were a good team, but it had more to do with the fact that that's who people had access to rather than their power level over other 5s. So I think we're seeing the same thing happening now after people hoarded for months not wanting Star Lord and Doc Ock, and holding off until they left the latest legends pool. I know it's anecdotal, but I know dozens of players personally that have finally made the move to 5* land over just the past few weeks, and of course they did so with the 3 latest 5s (either PP/DD/Gambit or DD/Gambit/Thor). 

    Tl;dr - Yes Gambit was and probably still is OP, but don't discount the fact that there are many new 5* players now and they all have Gambit as an additional reason for why you see him so often.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,579 Chairperson of the Boards

    In the Shield Sim I've seen multiple players with 8+ Champ 5*s running a level 420 or 435 Gambit.  In one case, their highest 5*s were in the 470s.

    I have 10 Champ 5* - and I will sometimes run my 435 Gambit despite the fact that he's sub-optimal at 5/4/3.

    So yes, this is a thing.

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2017
    mohio said:
    * - The following is not me trying to claim that Gambit is not OP, or the current best 5 for PvP or whatever else you guys are saying. The change sure looked like a buff to me, yet I'm still hearing people say it's hurting them and they are having a harder time, so it's not just pure upside. 

    To those saying all they are seeing is Gambit everywhere, part of that is definitely a testament to his power level. Even those with much higher leveled 5s are resigned to using him either as a counter to others or simply because he is faster. However I think many people are overlooking the other factor, which is just that many more people have Gambit than have had nearly any other 5* in the past, except for maybe the original 3. "All I see are OML/PHX" was a common complaint for a long time. Yes they were a good team, but it had more to do with the fact that that's who people had access to rather than their power level over other 5s. So I think we're seeing the same thing happening now after people hoarded for months not wanting Star Lord and Doc Ock, and holding off until they left the latest legends pool. I know it's anecdotal, but I know dozens of players personally that have finally made the move to 5* land over just the past few weeks, and of course they did so with the 3 latest 5s (either PP/DD/Gambit or DD/Gambit/Thor). 

    Tl;dr - Yes Gambit was and probably still is OP, but don't discount the fact that there are many new 5* players now and they all have Gambit as an additional reason for why you see him so often.
    Very true, and a point many dont think about. ALOT of people have been hording and waiting on a reason to break the bank. Combine the fact that not only is gambit good, he was the 1st xmen returning after a long hiatus and he's been one of the number one requested characters period in the game...

    Yeah your going to see alot of him, not only do people want him just because he's gambit, people want him because he's good.

    And if you have a B.B you can jump into 5 land and compete.

    All around Gambit is a highly sought after character. To legit nerf him would probably incite  the rage of far more people than just the same sample that complain about everything on the forums anyway.

     
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    thedarkphoenix said:
    mohio said:
    * - The following is not me trying to claim that Gambit is not OP, or the current best 5 for PvP or whatever else you guys are saying. The change sure looked like a buff to me, yet I'm still hearing people say it's hurting them and they are having a harder time, so it's not just pure upside. 

    To those saying all they are seeing is Gambit everywhere, part of that is definitely a testament to his power level. Even those with much higher leveled 5s are resigned to using him either as a counter to others or simply because he is faster. However I think many people are overlooking the other factor, which is just that many more people have Gambit than have had nearly any other 5* in the past, except for maybe the original 3. "All I see are OML/PHX" was a common complaint for a long time. Yes they were a good team, but it had more to do with the fact that that's who people had access to rather than their power level over other 5s. So I think we're seeing the same thing happening now after people hoarded for months not wanting Star Lord and Doc Ock, and holding off until they left the latest legends pool. I know it's anecdotal, but I know dozens of players personally that have finally made the move to 5* land over just the past few weeks, and of course they did so with the 3 latest 5s (either PP/DD/Gambit or DD/Gambit/Thor). 

    Tl;dr - Yes Gambit was and probably still is OP, but don't discount the fact that there are many new 5* players now and they all have Gambit as an additional reason for why you see him so often.
    Very true, and a point many dont think about. ALOT of people have been hording and waiting on a reason to break the bank. Combine the fact that not only is gambit good, he was the 1st xmen returning after a long hiatus and he's been one of the number one requested characters period in the game...

    Yeah your going to see alot of him, not only do people want him just because he's gambit, people want him because he's good.

    And if you have a B.B you can jump into 5 land and compete.

    All around Gambit is a highly sought after character. To legit nerf him would probably incite  the rage of far more people than just the same sample that complain about everything on the forums anyway.

     
    Great point. Gambit was the #1 requested character.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,579 Chairperson of the Boards
    LifeofAgony said:
    Just because people hoarded isn’t reason to not fix a broken character.  Just because he’s the first Xman released in ages does not justify making him the most over-powered toon in the game by a mile.  People being angry about him being nerfed isn’t a reason to not nerf.  Everyone lost their proverbial minds over the Logan nerf.  Guess what?  It still happened, people got ragey, and the game moved on.  And Logan was NOWHERE as OP or ubiquitous as Gambit is. 

    I'm going to make a point here - while Logan was not even remotely close to as powerful as Gambit, he was in fact more ubiquitous.  OML was incredibly useful at pretty much every level of the game so long as you had covers in his yellow.  I think the main reason for his nerf was to weed out all the 5 or 6 cover OMLs being used by 2* and 3* players.  OML was on the cusp of a shift in philosophy that 5*s should be very usable at lower covers.  They clearly got away from that, and OML was nerfed because of it.  I agree that he was over-nerfed (I think he was upper middle tier before the nerf, lower middle tier after,) although his yellow actually got a really good buff at the lower cost.  I think the situation is kind of apples and oranges, but regardless, otherwise I agree with you completely.  People will lose their minds, but it will be far, far worse if they leave him alone.  Nerfs and buffs are necessary for the long-term health of the game - the former much more so than the latter.  You can always write off a character as not worth it, but an OP character will ruin the game - essentially anyone who can't cover them will quit.

    LifeofAgony said:
    All these “arguments” have nothing to do with a toon that has unconditional ap generation and destruction.  And as has been said over and over, these are game breaking mechanics.  Goons no longer generate AP in the manner they used to because the devs saw the issues with unconditional AP gen.  

    Gambit black is still the most OP passive in the game.
    His red is a very strong nuke without the fact that it generates a free 6ap.
    His purple would still be strong just overwriting any kind of tiles, but gets damage on resolution as added bonus.

    Every power on its own could be construed as OP, then you add them together and it’s game-breaking.

    I'm not sure they're all OP on their own - the red isn't bad by itself as it's a bit conditional. If you don't have any charged tiles on the board it does very little, basically some board shake, a tiny AP boost, and create two charged tiles. That's not a hard condition to create, sure, but unless you have a charged tile creator you need to cast it twice to get it's full effect. You may get full- or half- effect after that, but the charged tiles can be matched or destroyed. Similarly, I think the purple is also fine by itself - it's very effective to get rid of enemy tiles, but 3 turn CDs are frequently destroyed, so  you're often ending up with just one or two by the end.

    I really do think that it's his black that breaks the bank.  I think if they changed the 5* black to be similar to the 3* black, he'd be relatively balanced but probably still be among the best, if not the best, 5*.

  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    You’d be right about red except that he creates the charges when he fires red - and I can list all the charged tile creators but let’s be honest - paired with bolt he hits god-mode which is what the staggering majority of people are using (who to no ones surprise was one of the first of 5s to get a 4* feeder).  Which all together wouldn’t be so terrible except, it generates even more ap.  Remove ap gen from red and it’s strong, not OP.  And casting this power twice isn’t very hard when he’s unconditionally gaining 2 red every turn and the power is cheap.

    The purple usually doesn’t get all tiles to resolve, but it’s only 3 turn at 3 purple - it’s 2-turns at 4 or more which isn’t that much time.  And at around 6k per tile at low levels, you’re talking about potentially 18k in damage if 3 go off.  Which is on top of removing EVERY type of tile. 

    A low 450 gambit speced 445 does 14k when Red hits charges tiles and 18k if all 3 cd resolve - that’s 32k in damage every 3-4 turns. 

    Which leads to the biggest problem, he can do it all this without ever having to make an actual tile match.  You match tu tiles aimlessly and these powers will still be ready to go for you in 3-4 turns no matter what happens.  And this was all before he was dropping your ap by 2 every turn.  And even the ap destruction is OP since it will only target a pool you have ap in, so it’s not like this will harmlessly hit a color with no ap.

    Name any other character in the game that can do all these things - unconditional ap gen, unconditional ap destruction, board shake that generates AP and does over 10k damage at base champ level, can overwrite 3 special tiles of any kind at base champ level and deal over 10k damage.  

    It’s not power creep, it’s not the new meta, it’s a broken character,  The devs have even said as much, they’re just not willing to do what’s needed yet.  
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    The bigger problem here that no one is mentioning has nothing to do with nerfing or buffing or getting up in arms over either: this toon should have never been released as he was. It was (and still is) about the dumbest move D3 has made in terms of letting a toon get past basic QA. The dude was broken at concept.

    And now here we are in a situation which divides the playerbase: those who hoarded and/or paid for this broken toon, and those who cannot compete because (for whatever reasons) they don't have him.

    We the playerbase should have never been put in a position to have to deal with this tinykitty.
    The bold is the biggest bunch of B.S I'm seeing throughout the thread. If you can't complete because you don't have a gambit then I dont know what to tell you.

    It's not gambit its you.


    Plenty of people I know have no gambit and are competing in pve and pvp events just find. Before I had a gambit leveled at the end of last week I was competing in events just fine. The only thing that has changed is it's a bit quicker which I've never complain against as the game really is to slow over all.


    Its no different than any other strong character that becomes the meta.


    Now if you want to say gambit sucks to fight against sure. But so does a lot of other characters.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    To not admit Gambit is OP is being naive, I've beaten him about as much as I wipe to him (I'm probably less than 50/50 but I'll go with that thinking to make me feel better). I typically run my 463 DD with either 451 BB or 451 Thanos. I've taken down a 540 Parker/548 Miles team, but I struggle against 450-470 Gambits. I don't know what else needs to be said, HE IS OP!!!!
  • madoctor
    madoctor Posts: 292 Mover and Shaker
    Milk Jugz said:
    To not admit Gambit is OP is being naive, I've beaten him about as much as I wipe to him (I'm probably less than 50/50 but I'll go with that thinking to make me feel better). I typically run my 463 DD with either 451 BB or 451 Thanos. I've taken down a 540 Parker/548 Miles team, but I struggle against 450-470 Gambits. I don't know what else needs to be said, HE IS OP!!!!
    You beat a team 100 levels higher than you using DD? Doesn't that make him OP?

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