Please nerf 5* Gambit

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  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,976 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    sambrookjm said:
    fight4thedream said:

    And to complete the chain, who better to be scissors than Hela? 

    Give her crazy strike tiles that would make R&G's look like plastic kitchen knives, an anti-Silent King active ability that disables the powers of a selected enemy character for a set number of turns with a de-motivation tile, and a nuke ability that increases in power for every friendly tile on the board. 

    You've just quasi-combined Cloak and Dagger and 4-star Star-Lord.
    Almost forgot! Actually her de-motivation tile would be a special tile like Silent King so it couldn't be matched away or overwritten. Additionally, instead of lowering levels it would simply deactivate powers meaning the selected character of the opposing team would be unable to use a power for a set number of turns. I suppose at 5 covers she could deactivate all three powers for x numbers of turns. 

    And her nuke ability is supposed to be akin to 5 *Thor's Asgardian Tactics since they are both children of Odin. Star-Lord only increases dependent on friendly CD's but Hela's would increase for all friendly tiles on the board. However, after thinking about it, I do think it should have an extra condition. Where Thor's ability ignores protect tiles, Hela's nuke would buff friendly strike and attack tiles. 

    But admittedly, I can see how you reached such a conclusion as there is some similarity.
  • mr_X
    mr_X Posts: 375 Mover and Shaker
    Yeah quite a few well know vets have quit because of this. Pretty sad when you look at the years of loyalty and support to the game to be pushed out of the game as a game breaking character effectively made the game virtually unplayable for them.

    Usually building counter would be a viable solution which would counterbalance a strong unique skill of a character. I.e. Jean Grey vs Prof X...

    But I cannot see how that would make the other 5s playable again unless you always have this new anti gambit on your team.

    Again if you cannot get gambit completed due to the vicissitudes of the RNG, there is no guarantee you will be able to complete a gambit counter either..

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    This happens with every strong character, and then months down the line people forget why there were complaining. 

    If they would have nerfed everyone that got nerf threads just his year we'd have 
    Rocket
    Carol
    Medusa
    Hawkeye
    Thanos
    panther

    and more nerfed. 

  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2017
    aesthetocyst said:
    thedarkphoenix said:
    This happens with every strong character, and then months down the line people forget why there were complaining. 

    If they would have nerfed everyone that got nerf threads just his year we'd have 
    Rocket
    Carol
    Medusa
    Hawkeye
    Thanos
    panther

    and more nerfed. 

    Still playing dumb, now resorting to "this too shall pass," that last refuge of MPQ scoundrels.

    Not a single equivalence to Gambit on your list.

    The first four you list are situational.

    Thanos needs some limitation on his courting; he should do his own triggering, a la 3BE, other than that he's fine.

    Panther? Whoever called Panther on his own OP?

    What are you even talking about? Clearly we disagree on somethings, but what am I playing dumb about? You want the AP generation changed, I don't think that's the end all be all problem. 

    That has nothing to do with this comment, I think gambit could use a tweak/nerf.

    But just like every other WOE is me X character needs changing it always passes, I listed characters at random that people have been complaining about this year that I see or saw threads about on the forums and in groups. Now its not even a big a deal, but months ago let the forum have there way the characters would have been nerfed. Just goes to show that all the crying and people thinking they know whats best and whats needed doesn't mean a thing

    Almost every character that has been nerfed after release is trash or a shell of what they formerly were, from Xforce wolverine to rag's, oml,.


    The character balance is the last thing in a list of long things that annoys me about this game, its cool when they tweak or buff and add characters but all in all the foundations of pvp and pve and how you earn/level characters need some adjusting.


    Gambit is the meta for now, and while he's annoying I've seen more variety in teams since he's dropped than before he was here which is a breath of fresh air. Yes the end all be all is gambit/bolt but gambit and different builds of gambits have allowed a lot of creative teams that include him to pop up and be played. He doesn't break the game, but he's really really good. 


     
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    To be fair I did see a lot of variety whilst climbing earlier.  In approximate order of frequency:

    Gambit/Bolt
    Gambit/Thanos
    Gambit/Daredevil
    Panthos
    Gambit/Spidey
    Gambit/Hawkeye
    Gambit/Goblin
    Gambit/OML
    Gambit/other
    Thanos/OML
    1 x grill

    Didn't really pay attention to the different Gambit builds, but I have no doubt 4/4/5, 3/5/5 and 5/3/5 were all out there.  Equally have no doubt that absolutely nobody (unless their 3 year old child took a turn) was running a build other than x/x/5.

    Quite simply Gambit IS game breaking for anyone that doesn't have him.  And plenty of the veterans that do have him are well aware and freely admit he is OP. 

    #nerfgambit
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    LifeofAgony said:

    Gambit is the meta for now, and while he's annoying I've seen more variety in teams since he's dropped than before he was here which is a breath of fresh air. Yes the end all be all is gambit/bolt but gambit and different builds of gambits have allowed a lot of creative teams that include him to pop up and be played. He doesn't break the game, but he's really really good. 


     
    No - unconditional ap gen at that level breaks the game:  it’s why the devs changed the way goons gen ap in pve.

    Its gamebreaking.
    Cool hopefully they just change that ability and we will see if gambit is still "OP"  I feel like a lot of people are going to be in for a rude awaking. Sm0keyJ0e said:
    thedarkphoenix said:

    Gambit is the meta for now, and while he's annoying I've seen more variety in teams since he's dropped than before he was here which is a breath of fresh air. Yes the end all be all is gambit/bolt but gambit and different builds of gambits have allowed a lot of creative teams that include him to pop up and be played. He doesn't break the game, but he's really really good.  
    You haven't seen more variety, you've seen Gambit and whoever their next best toon is. That simple. I have no idea what your roster looks like, but where I play, if you have Gambit, you're using Gambit. That is not variety--that is a new toon that you HAVE to use to play competitively or you get your face smashed in by someone else using Gambit.
    How is that ANY different from any other top tier team? I'll tell you, gambit is that strong, like you said you play him or you lose to him, but he's strong enough to were anyone else you put with him he can support or make viable.  

    So yes, I've seen  various other characters that are used now, yes gambit is a staple, but its still more varied than before gambit. When it w was almost exclusively thanos and panther.  


    Now I see bolt and gambit or gambit and random 4's or 5 pretty regularly. 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2017
    thedarkphoenix said:

    How is that ANY different from any other top tier team? I'll tell you, gambit is that strong, like you said you play him or you lose to him, but he's strong enough to were anyone else you put with him he can support or make viable.  
    It's VERY different. Ordinarily, you use your top leveled toons. When the balance is right, more champ covers = better toon. But I have seen folks literally using their 450-460 Gambit instead of their 500+ toons. I have three 5* greater than level 500 and I am forced to use GamBolt for the most part (neither of which is past 480). That doesn't make sense.

    And Gambit is not a support character and doesn't make anyone viable. He is an offensive juggernaut that generates his own AP and you simply blast away. He does nothing for any other toon unless you're running either version at 005. 
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2017
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    thedarkphoenix said:

    How is that ANY different from any other top tier team? I'll tell you, gambit is that strong, like you said you play him or you lose to him, but he's strong enough to were anyone else you put with him he can support or make viable.  
    It's VERY different. Ordinarily, you use your top leveled toons. When the balance is right, more champ covers = better toon. But I have seen folks literally using their 450-460 Gambit instead of their 500+ toons. I have three 5* greater than level 500 and I am forced to use GamBolt for the most part (neither of which is past 480). That doesn't make sense.

    And Gambit is not a support character and doesn't make anyone viable. He is an offensive juggernaut that generates his own AP and you simply blast away. He does nothing for any other toon unless you're running either version at 005. 


    This is has very rarely been the case for me when I started going from 4 to 5, until recently I was still using 3 strange or 4lord for a lot of things as well as rocket and groot, had plenty of other 4 and 5 higher level than them....they just did somethings better.


    same with pvp, I was using gamora, r&g even tho I had thanos and other 5’s  champed.


    And gambit is a everything character lol. I enjoy gambit for the random Increase ap generation from hhim destroying charged tiles. 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    Milk Jugz said:
    His black power needs to be changed, the unconditional auto ap generation is game breaking. My idea was to change it to an active power that costs 6 black and changes X number of red, purple, and black basic tiles to charged tiles. It feeds his other powers with ap still and feeds his red damage. You could get rid of the restriction on allies powers of the same color or leave it, doesn't much matter you're more likely to fire Gambits red and purple over any other except in niche cases (Thanos purple, for one). 

    An alliance mate of mine suggested changing his black to an active power that places a X turn CD tile that does what it does now- generate ap. You still have his amazing ap generating ability, but not from turn 1 and the CD can be matched away to end the generation. You, also, need to collect black to even get generating.

    I think both ideas have more validity than the current form of his black power and he will still be one of the best characters in the game, if not still the best.
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Change his black to cost 6ap and it generates two randomly charged red and purple tiles. Done. Denial is now possible when going against him, and he's still likely the best toon on offense and still has a means to speed up his red and purple production. The main problem now is the auto-AP generation. It's quite simply a broken mechanic and frankly, he should have never been released this way.

    Great minds.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    aesthetocyst said:
    CharlieCroker said:
    Didn't really pay attention to the different Gambit builds, but I have no doubt 4/4/5, 3/5/5 and 5/3/5 were all out there.  Equally have no doubt that absolutely nobody (unless their 3 year old child took a turn) was running a build other than x/x/5.

    Quite simply Gambit IS game breaking for anyone that doesn't have him.  And plenty of the veterans that do have him are well aware and freely admit he is OP. 

    #nerfgambit
    I was running a 3/5/2 and that was plenty free AP enough.

    Even at half speed, the free AP is a broke joke.


    So here's the question.  My Gambit is 1/4/4 and still at level 255.  Should I level him up to 390 and run him with a champed Bolt?  Maybe that'll let me compete more easily than any other combination I can field of champed 5s or decently boosted 4s.
  • burrich
    burrich Posts: 14 Just Dropped In
    I play another match 3 game where they recently released two characters that completely changed the meta overnight. The devs realised the mistake and they were nerfed within 2 days.

    The difference between the two games is that with the other game, people are more easily able to get these characters and the devs offer 100% refund of all the resources put into maxing the character. In this game, getting the character is easier than maxing the character.

    Now with Gambit, if they nerf him, they will have a large number of hoarders who blew their load to get a maxed Gambit. How do they compensate these people? They cannot give fair and adequate compensation without going through an enormously complex process of refunding CP and trying to roll back all the champ rewards they got for the excess 4 Star covers. It makes my head hurt thinking about that.

    So the other solution is to nerf and then offer these people 5 star tokens like they did with OML. I can't imagine the hoarders would be satisfied with this solution.

    So it looks like they will need to leave Gambit as he is for a number of months so that the OML nerf solution can be applied without causing too much anger and game quitting.

    Given the structure of the game, the devs really need to be careful not to release game-breaking, OP characters or they need to do something to change to hoarding culture that has developed.
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    The same thing they’ll do to other nerf toons - offer sell rate boosts like the no more guns store when they smacked OML.  There’s ways for them to compensate, albeit will never be a 1:1 ratio.
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    burrich said:
    So it looks like they will need to leave Gambit as he is for a number of months so that the OML nerf solution can be applied without causing too much anger and game quitting.

    Problem there is that there's definitely people playing harder in order to get a hoard ready before Gambit leaves.  Waiting to change Gambit until he leaves latest legends only means more CP is gonna be spent chasing him and more angry people feeling like they got baited-and-switched. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have not read all the thoughts in here and I just had an idea.

    What if his red no longer focused the charged tiles it creates. It would just destroy 2 random tiles every time. Spam it enough there is enough charge on the board for him to start randomly popping them and causing pain. 

    Maybe give his purple the same treatment. It can still overwrite nearly any tile type but it just randomly picks tiles not actually prioritising enemy specials.
  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2017
    I hated, Hated, HATED the Logan nerf - despite me no having him even remotely covered when it happened.  The very idea of weakening LEGENDARY characters - the rarest and most difficult to earn - struck me at my core... I nearly quit when it happened.


    But, we've come a long way since then, and I can agree with the community that "something" should be done to fix just how over-powering Gambit is compared to his 5* peers.


    I think the only fix that's required is to eliminate 0/0/5 as a viable build.
    Change the wording (and behavior) slightly to "No ally can fire Red or Purple powers while Gambit is active."

    There.

    Fixed.

    Other (minor) tweaks... possibly implemented one at a time:

    * smaller health pool - make him more of a "glass cannon" to offset his damage, and self-acceleration (exactly like 3* Hood!)
    * tweak his Red - "create X Charged tiles, if Y Charged tiles exist, deal damage", change the lower tiers to more Y required, and less X created
    * tweak his Red - doesn't generate AP - this reduces the AP acceleration even more (especially when the Charged tiles are both Red... he can fire Red another time for "free").
    * tweak his Purple - only over write CD tiles at 5 covers - this forces the player to decide on 5 red or 5 purple.

    Having the best build as 4/4/5 or 3/5/5 or 5/3/5 is still over-powering... making those lower tiers "much worse" forces the hard decisions.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,645 Chairperson of the Boards

    I'd like to add something here - there are those who have compared the people calling for a Gambit nerf to those calling for a Panthos nerf, etc.

    Speaking for myself, I have literally never called for a nerf on the Forums.  I've even defended not nerfing Wolverine X-Force on the forums - I admitted that while Goddess Thor was way over-powered compared to the other 4*s, Wolverine was simply the best.  At this point, I think I was wrong  - his black was ridiculously over-powered, though I do think they nerfed his green too hard.  I honestly think that Gambit is the most over-powered character since the original iteration of Goddess Thor (I covered her way after her nerf, so I had no real opinion on her when she was ludicrous.)  Possibly even more so.  Gambit really stands head and shoulders over the rest of the 5* tier, and woe betide the person who does not cover him.

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