Please nerf 5* Gambit

thedarkphoenix

aesthetocyst said:

tiomono said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

When fighting a level 506 Medusa, 540 Thor, and 450 Gambit........I take out Gambit first.  That's pretty telling.

I would target a hood that was 100 levels weaker than one of his allies first as well. Any character that is that low level wise will have less health and makes a good priority.

Any character that manipulates AP is a priority target.

thedarkphoenix said: [a bunch of stuff in this and another thread]

I don't want Gambit made weaker. I want the devs to remember how the game works, realize they broke it, and unbreak it. Conditionless, automatic, free AP circumvents the basic premise of the game. Everything else about Gambit is fine, it's fodder for power creep. 5Gambit's damage numbers would have been OP last year, but will be pedestrian next year.

And yes, I do think Thanos should be nerfed as well. When 1 character in a game with 148 or 149 or 150 (depends when you're reading this LOL) shifts the meta in all game events, in a way that becomes permanent, that's a problem. Hell, way back when a character released into a much smaller game had that kind of impact, they were nerfed, invariably. Even tho it's obviously much easier for a new character in a game with only a couple dozen characters to have that impact, they were nerfed. Only court death when a power is fired? Sure. Only court death when he kills someone? Even better. Just like how 3BE was nerfed .... no more knives for everybody

Gambit is and will continue to have a disproportionate impact, not to the degree of Thanos, but every bit as persistent. Due to the free AP, he will be hanging around like a bad cold permanently ... unless they release more OP characters in the same free AP vein.

FWiW, BP is just a coattail rider.

Anyway, this thread is about the Gambit screwup, not any other mistakes..

Sounds like you want a very boring game, a lot of the characters on this game do the same thing the same way already, meta shifting is going to happen not matter what, doesn't matter what you think the condition for it should or shouldn't be.

Also gambit's AP gneration is not Condition less, he prevents others from using powers of the same color. Now how that should work or how well it works is another story.

Hood was the closet thing to a Condition less requirement for AP...but even then it required a certain amount of colors on the board and for the opponent to have those colors

I do think gambit should be toned down a bit, but I like when a company pushes the boundaries for there game play mechanic's. If every character just matched some color's and fired a power...yeahhhhh i'd be long gone as would alot of other people i think.



In a nut shell I think anyone that can passively affect AP in anyway needs to be good at that and not a bunch of things like attacking, CC and Ap generation. That's the same problem hood had, he was good at getting AP, he did damage with his yellow and it board shake with CC and he reduced counter timers. That's too much... and gambit is another case of doing to much but too much with good health.

ViralCore

thedarkphoenix said: [a bunch of stuff in this and another thread]

Also gambit's AP gneration is not Condition less, he prevents others from using powers of the same color. Now how that should work or how well it works is another story.

Hood was the closet thing to a Condition less requirement for AP...but even then it required a certain amount of colors on the board and for the opponent to have those colors

Since his purple and red are arguably the best in the game for the reasons that were stated before - so his AP gain is basically condition-less.

Hood's AP gain is nowhere near the same as Gambits. With Hood, you gain 1 or 2 random AP which may not be at all useful, along with the benefit of slowing down the enemy. Gambit gains 6 AP in the colors that he needs, with the benefit of accelerating his own abilities which deals significant damage, gains 6 random AP, overwrites most special tiles, and shakes the board.

That all said, to rebalance him, they just need to change his black. It's his ability to spam his other abilities that is causing the problem.

jamesh

So maybe they just need to release a character that passively reduces the enemy's purple and red AP by 3 every turn.  Problem solved.

razor14

I want to update my post.
When I first wrote here I didn't have a champed Gambit and was very hard to face him...
After being smashed in pvp over and over, needed to play a lot more to get to 1.2k pts, I decided to champ my Gambit selling a couple of 3* maxed.
After 5 days using him my impression is that he is definitely a game changer, and once you get him champed you can defeat others champed Gambit teams very very easily...
So, it's more like if you have a champed Gambit you don't have anything to worry about (except for the fact you gonna have to use him all the time), but if you don't, well you are tinykitted...
Conclusion: IMO, a nerf would benefit the overall gameplaying experience for everyone.

John Wayne74

This is so simple to see.  Can’t understand the disconnect, other than the “haves” liking their “god” mode.  Gambit effectively nerfed 19 other 5*’s.  So is it better to nerf 1 or 19???  19 have already been done, so nerfing 1 technically boosts the other 19.  That’s a win in my book.  But my book is a pop up book, cause I can’t read so.....

fight4thedream

There's no question that Gambit is currently the top 5* character. However, I think asking for him to be nerfed is being a bit a short-sighted. With the arrival of Gambit and the implementation of the latest 5* buff, PvP has seen a significant increase in team variation, at least from my experience.

While GamBolt is currently consider the top meta-team, I have seen such teams as: 

Gambit + Hawkeye 
Gambit + Thor (although with the boost gone, I doubt we will be seeing this team again anytime soon. )
Gambit + Spider-man
Daredevil + Spider-man
Gambit + 4* character
Gambit + Strange
Gambit + Thanos

And of course, the former kings of PvP: Panthos.

Before the Gambit era, the vast majority of my matches for most of 2017 were Panthos teams. And before them there was BB & BW (brief though it was), OML & Phoenix, XFW & Thor, Sentry & Hood, and so on. Yes, there have been characters of exceptional ability who could stand on their own: here's looking at you 3*Spider-man former master of the eternal stun, 3* Magneto Master of the Infinite Turn, and 2* Ragnarok the Original Board Shaker/Cascade Maker. O
 
While history would suggest that the Ragin Cajun is doomed to be nerfed like his predecessors, I am hoping that the devs are looking at new and better ways to shake up the top tier meta. The latest 5* character boost is definitely a step in that direction but hopefully they take another step in considering a rock-paper-scissors dynamic instead of the "One Power Pair" to rule them all that has plagued the 5* tier. 

I think the key to achieving that is to make a proper counter character, and pardon my geekdom here, but I do believe there is no better character to counter Gambit than Bishop. (and holy smokes I just realized both names are associated with chess! I always knew Gambit's name came from chess but the Bishop naming just clicked! lmao) Anywhoo, since passives seem to be the hot sauce of the 5* tier give Bishop a passive that automatically absorbs charged tiles. That alone would shut down Gambit's red ability and BB's black ability. If the devs wanted to make him a true counter, give him a CD counter ability that increases the time on CDs ala OBW but that also puts his own CD tile on the board that does more damage for every enemy CD tile on the board and does damage every turn its active. And there you go, Gambit has basically been shut down. Finally give him another passive ability that increases his match damage for each color dependent on the players AP pool. So for example, if he has 10AP in yellow, his match damage for yellow increases by 150%, 20 AP in yellow 250%, and 30AP in yellow 300% or some jazz like that.

The beauty of this is that by creating a pure counter character, you open up that character to being weak against other types of attacks. His passive charge absorb ability would be wasted fighting a PP Spider-man & DD team or Panthos, and the increase in CD time active ability would be of limited use or might even work against him for example DD's green or Black Panter's Black ability.

So Bishop would be the paper to Gambit's rock. 

And to complete the chain, who better to be scissors than Hela? 

Give her crazy strike tiles that would make R&G's look like plastic kitchen knives, an anti-Silent King active ability that disables the powers of a selected enemy character for a set number of turns with a de-motivation tile, and a nuke ability that increases in power for every friendly tile on the board. 

And there you have it, three different types of characters who if set on equal footing would open up the meta to all sorts of potentially viable teams.  But you have to start somewhere and it is my hope that Gambit is the first pillar of a rock-paper-scissors meta rather than the "One Power Pair" meta we have been dealing with for the last couple of years. 

Piro_plock

fight4thedream said:

There's no question that Gambit is currently the top 5* character. However, I think asking for him to be nerfed is being a bit a short-sighted. With the arrival of Gambit and the implementation of the latest 5* buff, PvP has seen a significant increase in team variation, at least from my experience.

While GamBolt is currently consider the top meta-team, I have seen such teams as: 

Gambit + Hawkeye 
Gambit + Thor (although with the boost gone, I doubt we will be seeing this team again anytime soon. )
Gambit + Spider-man
Daredevil + Spider-man
Gambit + 4* character
Gambit + Strange
Gambit + Thanos

And of course, the former kings of PvP: Panthos.

Before the Gambit era, the vast majority of my matches for most of 2017 were Panthos teams. And before them there was BB & BW (brief though it was), OML & Phoenix, XFW & Thor, Sentry & Hood, and so on. Yes, there have been characters of exceptional ability who could stand on their own: here's looking at you 3*Spider-man former master of the eternal stun, 3* Magneto Master of the Infinite Turn, and 2* Ragnarok the Original Board Shaker/Cascade Maker. O
 
While history would suggest that the Ragin Cajun is doomed to be nerfed like his predecessors, I am hoping that the devs are looking at new and better ways to shake up the top tier meta. The latest 5* character boost is definitely a step in that direction but hopefully they take another step in considering a rock-paper-scissors dynamic instead of the "One Power Pair" to rule them all that has plagued the 5* tier. 

I think the key to achieving that is to make a proper counter character (...)

I think a counter to Gambit is not enough. I have a champed Gambit (along with 16 other 5* champs) and let me tell you: I think he's way too strong. If a 450 5* character annihilates almost any other 5* even if they're 50 levels higher, a counter is simply not enough. It will only force you to chase that new shiny 5* (and the power creep marches on...), but what about all the others? They will be forever sentenced to the bench, because not only will they be a target in PVP, they won't even stand a chance as offensive players.

And about Panthos being the previous king of meta. There's really only one reason why: they destroy weaker teams faster than anything else. That's it. Thanos is still the champion of binging on baked goods and assorted meats. When they were my main PVP team, I had next to no defensive wins - because come on, they're great on offense, but laughably easy to beat by every 5* if you know what you're doing. Now when I'm running Gambit (mostly with Bolt, but sometimes DD, Strange etc.)  I have a lot more defensive wins. And I mean A LOT. If a team that's controlled by AI can kick your butt so easily then I don't think it's balanced. Ceterum censeo.

CharlieCroker

@fight4thedream

I love the idea of the rock-paper-scissors meta and agree that's infinitely better than a meta with such a dominant pairing as Panthos (although as pointed out by others this was never because they were the best pairing, more that they were the quickest against weak teams/cupcakes).

The problem with this for the 5* tier is availability.  Unless you spend, hoard, cheat or simply get continuously lucky with your pulls, there is no guaranteed way to get any new characters released.

I personally have opened somewhere around 270 LT's since Gambit entered packs and have pulled 4 Gambits + one BH.  I don't know where that puts me on the standard deviation curve, but I doubt it's that far down it couldn't easily happen to me again, and no doubt has/is to lots of others.

Not having Gambit (ergo any other OP characters) relegates my wide 5* roster to just being fodder for any Gambit teams and to be honest his partners don't matter a lot.  Likewise it means non-Gambits users are seen as inviting targets for other non-Gambit users and will get hit a lot more often than normal.  And it doesn't matter what team you're running, or to a large extent how big your team is. I'd personally preferring hitting a 500+ OML/PHX or Panthos to a 450 Gambit team.

In short, between Gambit and the ridiculous boosts given to new releases, PvP is no longer a FUN experience for me.  And I've never been closer to walking away from a game and community I've mostly enjoyed being part of.

Sm0keyJ0e

Change his black to cost 6ap and it generates two randomly charged red and purple tiles. Done. Denial is now possible when going against him, and he's still likely the best toon on offense and still has a means to speed up his red and purple production. The main problem now is the auto-AP generation. It's quite simply a broken mechanic and frankly, he should have never been released this way.

sambrookjm

fight4thedream said:

And to complete the chain, who better to be scissors than Hela? 

Give her crazy strike tiles that would make R&G's look like plastic kitchen knives, an anti-Silent King active ability that disables the powers of a selected enemy character for a set number of turns with a de-motivation tile, and a nuke ability that increases in power for every friendly tile on the board. 

You've just quasi-combined Cloak and Dagger and 4-star Star-Lord.

madoctor

I am still undecided on this. IMO opinion power creep is necessary to shift the meta and for players to unhoard for a very good character. Peggy was considered broken when released. C4rol was the same. Thanos was considered stupidly OP when released.

The creep helps move the meta along and I think players have certainly had their fill of panthos.

Gambit gives a means for new 5* territory players (who don't have panthos) to play with the panthos guys. Being able to abuse the AP gen is a totally different story. Tie the AP gen passives to red and purple respectively and come up with a black which doesn't boost him further. That should solve most of the problem many have.

However I wouldn't expect them to change anything soon, since he is the latest and greatest and the backlash would be humongous (100x worse than OML).

CharlieCroker

madoctor said:

I am still undecided on this. IMO opinion power creep is necessary to shift the meta and for players to unhoard for a very good character. Peggy was considered broken when released. C4rol was the same. Thanos was considered stupidly OP when released.

The creep helps move the meta along and I think players have certainly had their fill of panthos.

Gambit gives a means for new 5* territory players (who don't have panthos) to play with the panthos guys. Being able to abuse the AP gen is a totally different story. Tie the AP gen passives to red and purple respectively and come up with a black which doesn't boost him further. That should solve most of the problem many have.

However I wouldn't expect them to change anything soon, since he is the latest and greatest and the backlash would be humongous (100x worse than OML).

I have Panthos and hardly ever use them in PvP (or PVE for that matter) anymore except for clearing grills.  Anyone who unloaded a hoard for Gambit will also have Daredevil and either Thor/Spidey.  Any combination of those (or a balanced Gambit) will be more than sufficient to reliably defeat Panthos teams.

Interesting idea about tieing the ap generation to red/purple.  If they did that and gave  Gambit a black that was in some way detrimental but less so at 4-5 covers it could help to balance him.  Reducing his health to Dr Strange levels would also help a lot.

PenniesForEveryone

It's so painfully obvious when you can freely climb with GamBolt but the second you switch to anything without Gambit you start taking hits left and right.

GrimSkald

Thanos never dominated the meta like Gambit does now.  Thanos is very beatable if you don't have a Thanos - the biggest problem with him is that if you lose a character you will frequently lose the match as he snowballs pretty badly.  That's not inherently unbalanced - Phoenix will mess you up with a nasty cascade and she's underpowered at the moment.  I will frequently target Thanos last - he's pretty easy to deal with.  If he gets his green tile out and you can't destroy it or stun him that's going to be a bad day, but there's a lot of ifs there, and it's also pretty expensive.  Frequently you will have the resources to either deal with it or stun him quickly, and it's matchable about half the time to boot.

Pre-Gambit, Thanos was a decent scarecrow - his large hp pool and good match damage means he's a pain in the tinykitty to climb over, and Panther is annoying to deal with unless you have low enough constant damage (like Bolt,) or can take him down quickly.  It's a very beatable combo, it just takes times which makes it less-than-ideal for when you want to be shielded quickly.  I use Bolt/Surfer against Panthos - it works very well and is fairly sustainable team to boot.

If you don't take him out quickly, Gambit will destroy you.  If you don't have a Gambit, you're prey for a Gambit team and you have a lot of trouble taking those on.  I have ten champed 5*s (my Gambit is 10 covers atm,) and I just plain don't take on Gambit teams.

If they nerf Thanos and don't nerf Gambit, I'll take a good hard look at whether or not I still want to be playing this game.  It will show a fundamental lack of understanding on how the game is played at the high end.

WelcomeDeath

madoctor said:

I am still undecided on this. IMO opinion power creep is necessary to shift the meta and for players to unhoard for a very good character. Peggy was considered broken when released. C4rol was the same. Thanos was considered stupidly OP when released.

The creep helps move the meta along and I think players have certainly had their fill of panthos.

Gambit gives a means for new 5* territory players (who don't have panthos) to play with the panthos guys. Being able to abuse the AP gen is a totally different story. Tie the AP gen passives to red and purple respectively and come up with a black which doesn't boost him further. That should solve most of the problem many have.

However I wouldn't expect them to change anything soon, since he is the latest and greatest and the backlash would be humongous (100x worse than OML).

Why do people keep saying Thanos was considered OP upon release?  This is just not true.  Thanos was considered garbage upon release.  Panther, too.  It was only after a bunch covered them and found out you could beat cupcakes with them really fast that they had any relevance.  They are slow on offense and laughably weak on defense.  You can beat them with like level 300 4*.  The only reason they became so prevalent was the OML nerf.  It became much harder to climb with OML Phx so people switched it up.  Also, it was far more efficient to hit cupcake teams with Panthos.  Being able to effectively beat intentionally weak teams does not make that team good.  You can beat cupcakes with anything, Panthos just sped that up.  They were not as good at beating full strength teams, even boosted 4*.  

LifeofAgony

Being that there has been no blue name responses to an 11-page thread that hasn’t denigrated into trolling or name calling should clue you in to how tone deaf they are.  Same had they actually play-tested the absurdity of Gambit.

This will not get fixed until the spending on him stops so figure it’ll be AT LEAST until he leaves latest, and probably longer.  And that’s a big if given how little they understand about their own game.

sambrookjm

Welcome Death said:

Why do people keep saying Thanos was considered OP upon release?  This is just not true.  Thanos was considered garbage upon release. 

I remember that...Thanos was considered garbage mainly because his Court Death did more total damage to your own team than it did to the enemy team at LVLs 1-4, I believe.  It switched back at LVL 5, but there was still a LOT of self-hurt from his Court Death ability.  Once that got switched around, and that happened relatively quickly (much quicker than the length of time Gambit's been busted), he improved greatly.

GrimSkald

aesthetocyst said:

GrimSkald said:

Thanos never dominated the meta like Gambit does now....

There's more to the game than high-end PvP meta (really, I swear ). Thanos is due a nerf because of his function in and effect on PvE, LRs, seeds, DDQ ... Court Death is the most ridiculous and abused passive in the game. He's MPQs Easy Button, dull boring, won't go away anytime soon. He's a crutch and a time-saver, sure, but he's turned PvE into a joke.

I can't see your team in PVE, so I have no idea what you use.   Speaking for myself I rarely use him in PVE unless I want to barrel through the nodes at high speed. For the trivial nodes he shaves of very little time compared to another 5* team, and for the harder ones it usually takes more than one hit - at least at the CL I play at (9.)  Sure, he speeds things up, but at the cost of Health Packs.  I really don't think he makes things a joke.  I suppose for the really competitive players he helps as they want to clear as fast as possible, I can't imagine he takes more than a 10-20 minutes off of a clear, total.

DDQ is the same as trivial.  If I use Thanos instead of another 5*, I shave off 40 seconds of play.  Hardly worth it.

fight4thedream

Piro_plock said:

I think a counter to Gambit is not enough. I have a champed Gambit (along with 16 other 5* champs) and let me tell you: I think he's way too strong. If a 450 5* character annihilates almost any other 5* even if they're 50 levels higher, a counter is simply not enough. It will only force you to chase that new shiny 5* (and the power creep marches on...), but what about all the others? They will be forever sentenced to the bench, because not only will they be a target in PVP, they won't even stand a chance as offensive players.

And about Panthos being the previous king of meta. There's really only one reason why: they destroy weaker teams faster than anything else. That's it. Thanos is still the champion of binging on baked goods and assorted meats. When they were my main PVP team, I had next to no defensive wins - because come on, they're great on offense, but laughably easy to beat by every 5* if you know what you're doing. Now when I'm running Gambit (mostly with Bolt, but sometimes DD, Strange etc.)  I have a lot more defensive wins. And I mean A LOT. If a team that's controlled by AI can kick your butt so easily then I don't think it's balanced. Ceterum censeo.

While history would agree with you, (here's looking at you BSSM), I still think it's a viable option if done right. And I don't disagree with your assessment, but as you stated, the ultimate goal of power creep is to encourage players to chase after that new shiny 5*. With that said, I do suspect that we will see a weekly 5* buff implemented along with the current latest 5* buff sometime next year. I will get into that point a bit later but first I want to address:

CharlieCroker said:

@fight4thedream

I love the idea of the rock-paper-scissors meta and agree that's infinitely better than a meta with such a dominant pairing as Panthos (although as pointed out by others this was never because they were the best pairing, more that they were the quickest against weak teams/cupcakes).

The problem with this for the 5* tier is availability.  Unless you spend, hoard, cheat or simply get continuously lucky with your pulls, there is no guaranteed way to get any new characters released.

I personally have opened somewhere around 270 LT's since Gambit entered packs and have pulled 4 Gambits + one BH.  I don't know where that puts me on the standard deviation curve, but I doubt it's that far down it couldn't easily happen to me again, and no doubt has/is to lots of others.

Not having Gambit (ergo any other OP characters) relegates my wide 5* roster to just being fodder for any Gambit teams and to be honest his partners don't matter a lot.  Likewise it means non-Gambits users are seen as inviting targets for other non-Gambit users and will get hit a lot more often than normal.  And it doesn't matter what team you're running, or to a large extent how big your team is. I'd personally preferring hitting a 500+ OML/PHX or Panthos to a 450 Gambit team.

In short, between Gambit and the ridiculous boosts given to new releases, PvP is no longer a FUN experience for me.  And I've never been closer to walking away from a game and community I've mostly enjoyed being part of.

You hit directly on the head. I have never been a proponent of RNG dominating the 5* tier although I do understand both the financial and game play reasons such a system was set in place. I do realize that Gambit has created a very real obstacle for those trying to compete in PvP who do not have a viable Gambit, and I have even heard of vets who have quit because Fortune did not smile upon their pulls. I do hope your luck turns around and that you will be sticking around because I do think we are in the midst of growing pains as the devs look to change the 5* meta.

First and foremost, allow me to preface this by saying this is purely speculation on my part. One of the fun facets of the game I enjoy is trying to predict meta-shifts. While I have been wrong many a-time, *sheds a tear for 5* Thor*, I am always wondering what the devs have next in store. 

Consider: 

- Introduction of 5* Essential node with CL9 in PvE
- The recent 4 week newest 5* character buff
- 4* characters giving out 5* cover rewards
- The release of Gambit, a character that was clearly designed to be able to fight teams above his level
- There are currently three main groups of players in the 5* tier: 
       Group 1: The New Generation who have taken their first steps into the 5* realm with Gambit and possibly other 5* characters from LL.
       Group 2: Vets who have a set of 5* (ranging from 2~20) including Gambit
       Group 3: Vets who have a set of 5* (ranging from 2~19) but no Gambit

The question I have been asking myself is: Why? And while I understand the cynical response to that answer, I remain hopeful that this only the beginning of 5* tier Renaissance. As things currently stand, the group most negatively affected by the introduction of Gambit are those who do not have him. 

One way to help alleviate this issue is by introducing a proper counter character, as I mentioned earlier. But the other way is to buff older 5* characters. 

Now here's a thought exercise: If Gambit were brought down to let's say Black Bolt level, a good solid character, but then the devs were to introduce weekly 5* character buffs, how effective would he be? The players most likely to lose out on such a proposition would be the New Generation who have splurged their hoard chasing the new hotness only to get left behind when the vet group comes to the table with their classic buffed characters. (obviously not all buffed characters will be great, I admit)

Having Gambit will still allow them to compete. At least for the time being. 

I admit as things currently stand, Gambit is OP. But I do think there is a reason for this. His release reminds me of when Silver Surfer first dropped. People were up in arms because he was able to take down a team of the best 4* at the time single-handledly. But once people saw OML stats and got a look at Phoenix and understood what was in store, he became an afterthought. 

And while the two share similarities as meta-changers, there are significant differences too. Mainly, Silver Surfer wasn't prevalent up his release as at the time buy clubs weren't a thing and those that understood that OML was the better character focused on hoarding for him. Contrastingly, you had a lot of people who were hoarding and waiting for the next best thing (many including myself had hoped it would be Thor) so there were a lot of people, both spenders and hoarders, who were able to champ him from Day One. 

The other significant difference is that we don't know what lies ahead. As I mentioned before, while Silver Surfer was initially looked upon with horror, that soon dissipated after people got a look at OML's stats and learned what it would take to get him covered. But it is my hope that we are headed for something better in the 5* tier because let's be honest, we haven't had much in terms of variety if you are playing PvP competitively. 

So it is my suspicion that we will be seeing CL9 for PvP in the first half of next year and with it, 5* weekly classic character boosts along with the current Newest character boost. Gambit is intended to help those who do not have a deep 5* roster compete in a such meta. It will be only after the devs have completed the 5* meta shift that they will look at how he is affecting things and consider nerfing him.

But who knows? I have been wrong before. I certainly hope I'm not but I am looking forward to what goodies the devs have in store for us for next year.  

broll

The tinfoil hat is telling me that if Gambit is to be nerfed, it won’t be till he leaves Latest Legends and they’ve milked as much money out of the OP as possible. 

That said im still team Never Nerf. #NeverNerf