*** Iron Man (Model 40) ***

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Comments

  • Lerysh wrote:
    @hatesuite - I totally misread your question. It was why tutile.png too, not why AP drain at all. Likely cause is vestigial code. "Drain everything that's not red" bled over to include tutile.png. I would doubt very much they put work into adding this here when they haven't added it to AP steals like OBW and Hood yet.

    Yes, this inclusion makes IM40 even worse than he already was.

    If I was redesigning IM40, I would have Unibeam cost 9, Ballistic Salvo cost 14, and Recharge cost 6 min but takes all your yellow to use with additional costs as you gain more yellow AP for additional effects by adding additional covers. Unibeam and Ballistic Salvo would NOT drain Yellow, Red, or Blue AP. At the respective cover levels they drain 4, 3 or 2 Green Black Purple Teamup. Don't change the damage numbers at all. This brings the cost for Unibeam to 9 to 17 depending on AP and Ballistic Salvo to 14 to 22. Damage per AP then is between 3559/9 = 395.4 and 3559/17 = 209.3 for Unibeam and (2669*3)/14 = 571.9 and (2669*3)/22 = 364 for Ballistic Salvo. This includes the stipulation that boosting to 6 red then matching a red to get 3559 damage on turn 2 isn't actually broken for him, it's strategy. If that stipulation makes you uncomfortable, then make Unibeam cost 10.

    For comparison, if you gave 18 redtile.png to a 5 redflag.png Thor he would do 4,264 damage and add 6 yellow tiles, Patch would do approx 6,000 - 8,000 with TBTI (assumption is he tanks 50% of the board), and Sentry would do 5,000 team damage plus 1000 damage to his own team (assumption is he destroys 9 red tiles). This would cost 16, 14, 11 AP respectively. Compared to IM40 can do 7118 damage to single targets. Not out of line I think, with what is SUPPOSED to be his best most reliable ability.


    This is how I would modify Recharge:
    Lerysh wrote:
    Ironman 40 yellowflag.png AP 6
    Recharges weapon systems. Drain's all your yellow. Creates 3 Countdown tiles that activate after 2 turns, restoring 3 Red AP each. Iron Man is then stunned for 2 turns as systems reinitialize.
    Level Upgrades
    Level 2: Each Countdown tile also restores 3 Blue AP if you had 8 Yellow.
    Level 3: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Green AP if you had 10 Yellow.
    Level 4: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Purple AP if you had 12 Yellow.
    Level 5: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Black AP if you had 14 Yellow.


    Takes all your yellow to cast, similar to Ares Onslaught for green, but has a variant effect based on how much yellow you had. May not be enough to push some people off of 5/5/3 but it would put an end to the 5/5/1 builds at the very least.

    The idea that IM40 enters some kind of "Recharge Mode" where he stuns himself, and then gets the AP on exit is a good one, but it would have to reduce effectiveness because no chance to break the tiles. I know smart users of IM40 rarely if ever lose a tile anyway, but it has to be considered. Maybe reduce the CDs to 1 but stun IM40 for 1 turn upon activation and not upon receipt of the AP. Still 2 turns to get the AP but IM40 is ready to go as soon as he gets it, and it would give him enough to Unibeam immediately if it cost 9.


    Actually, the ability says "color" tiles which should not include the teamups. I have always missed the old environment tiles since I never get to use teamups (either too short of a fight or all the team ups cost forever) and this just makes me miss them more. There is no reason for anyone to jump off the 5/5/3 unless they dramatically increase the number of AP given per CD. Maybe taking yours and making it 3 at level 3, 4 at level 4 and 5 at level 5. That would make me change if I am just using him as battery like I noted above.
  • They are a color. They are white.

    I don't want to cause anyone to go away from 5/5/3. What I want is for 5/5/1 to not be a thing. Right now his prefered PvE build is 5/5/1.
  • Lerysh wrote:
    They are a color. They are white.

    I don't want to cause anyone to go away from 5/5/3. What I want is for 5/5/1 to not be a thing. Right now his prefered PvE build is 5/5/1.


    But they are treated as a separate and distinct item. After all they replaced the environment tiles. Otherwise some hero would have them as an ability. then making him produce more ap would do that.
  • IM40s tiles still count down if he self stuns, because he's stunned after the first one. So there is already code in place for "count these down while stunned" and no reason he can't stun himself for 2 on use and be charged and ready to fire after 2.
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    hatesuite wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    They are a color. They are white.

    I don't want to cause anyone to go away from 5/5/3. What I want is for 5/5/1 to not be a thing. Right now his prefered PvE build is 5/5/1.

    But they are treated as a separate and distinct item. After all they replaced the environment tiles. Otherwise some hero would have them as an ability. then making him produce more ap would do that.
    I stopped thinking of them as separate when they began adding strike tiles on top on their damage...
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lerysh wrote:
    Ironman 40 yellowflag.png AP 6
    Recharges weapon systems. Drain's all your yellow. Creates 3 Countdown tiles that activate after 2 turns, restoring 3 Red AP each. Iron Man is then stunned for 2 turns as systems reinitialize.
    Level Upgrades
    Level 2: Each Countdown tile also restores 3 Blue AP if you had 8 Yellow.
    Level 3: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Green AP if you had 10 Yellow.
    Level 4: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Purple AP if you had 12 Yellow.
    Level 5: Each Countdown tile also restores 2 Black AP if you had 14 Yellow.


    Takes all your yellow to cast, similar to Ares Onslaught for green, but has a variant effect based on how much yellow you had. May not be enough to push some people off of 5/5/3 but it would put an end to the 5/5/1 builds at the very least.

    Demiurge, I don't normally ask for much, but this yellow rework is a no brainer. There is 0 balance to be considered because the abilities are identical, and it removes the 5/5/1 problem. It's such an elegant way to fix this ability: why not implement it I ask?
  • This is not balance base, but are you guys ever going to fix the mislabeling of the Model number?

    This is the real Model 40:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_40

    What we have is Model 42:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_42
  • 20 AP (+2 drain on all other colors) for 2.7k AOE.

    Even discounting the +2 drain, what's the damage effectiveness? (2677*3) / 20 = 401. Damage effectiveness comparison, on skills that do damage, is usually a pretty decent statement of overall power once compared to cost. So... what skills are comparable? Sniper Rifle? Blows it out of the water at around 570/AP, and costs one less. Wind Storm? 490, 9 cheaper, on a 2*, and has a longer stun. Every other AOE in the 3* range clocks in well over 500 (ROTP around 790, CTS around 550, Whales at 870). There are only a handful of single-target skills that cost more than 11, and they fall into two categories - "****" and "ends game". Seriously, for 20 AP, you expect more than a pathetic 2.7k AOE. You could easily bump this up to 4k or 5k without breaking it. Just double that number. Then you'll have a damage effectiveness of 800. Which is really good... but you still have to, you know, hit 20 AP. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Speaking of pathetic: Unibeam costs 13 AP, has a hefty downside (-2 AP to all other colors), and does 3559, for a damage effectiveness of...

    ...274/AP.

    How **** is that? Well, Onslaught has a damage effectiveness of 230. You know, the 2* skill that is really cheap and scales up. Call The Storm has a damage effectiveness of 285. ON A 2*. 3* Thunder Strike has 230/AP and the added bonus of probably giving you upwards of 6 green AP. Forget the good red skills like Fireball or Star-Spangled Avenger (the comparison with the latter is especially cruel - SSA does more damage, costs less, and repeats every 3 turns). Bump it up to 5k and it would actually be worth using. 3.5k for 13AP with a huge downside is just downright insulting.


    And of course, all of this is done on the assumption that IM40 is running at 5/5/3, which isn't fair - realistically, you're running him at 5/5/1 or 5/5/2 (because otherwise Recharge is just unreasonably slow), so you can't hit level 166.

    IM40 needs a buff. Just crank those numbers up. It'll take all of 5 minutes and would move the character from "awful (Loki, Beast)" to "useful (Punisher, Psylocke)". And I guarantee you - he wouldn't be broken.
  • CrookedKnightCrookedKnight Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,579 Chairperson of the Boards
    Alternately:

    Unibeam: 8 AP (plus drain on other colors)

    Ballistic Salvo: 10 AP (plus drain on other colors)

    Recharge: Above level 2, extra colors are added when you use the power when you have 10/12/14 yellow AP, instead of requiring the extra AP to cast at all and making the power too slow to be worthwhile.

    There, IM40's good now.
  • 8AP for 3.6k is a little over the top IMO. Same with 2.7k AOE. You'd need to tweak those values down a little. Given IM40's flavor, it doesn't make sense to make him cheaper. He's supposed to be slow but brutal. The problem is, right now, he's just... slow.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    bump.

    This was the last topic on the character board, just wanted to bump it for old time sake icon_e_biggrin.gif
  • TrisulTrisul Age Unconfirmed Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    Single-yellow IM40 is one of the best enablers in MPQ, mainly due to the power of red and the cheap AP cost.

    For all transition players... a single yellow IM40 cover is absolutely killer in PvE. I think it's the most impactful single 3* cover in the game right now for transitioners. Any time Wolverine or Torch is boosted (like the current Thick As Thieves), you can pretty much beat any encounter when paired with IM40, along with a red/yellow boost for the harder nodes.

    That single cover will continue to pay off. Even recently, I ran my lowly level 40 IM40 with Hood and 3* Cap in the most recent Simulator to beat all the difficult Hard nodes.
  • ronin_sanronin_san Posts: 980 Critical Contributor
    He's 3/5/5 for me, and is 163. I'm going to finish in the top ~15 because I have a maxed GSBW and can carve through fights with XFW, Doom, and GSBW.

    I'll be dropping his yellowflag.png yellow in favor of his redflag.png Red. I know there are better redflag.png abilities out there, but I'm looking to reduce costs on the battery.
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you forget to look at the timestamps, this would be completely hilarious compared to today's game. Sadly everything still applies to IM.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    bump.

    This was the last topic on the character board, just wanted to bump it for old time sake icon_e_biggrin.gif

    We're coming up on Thanksgiving and Christmas, not Easter. icon_e_wink.gif
  • Never going over 5/5/1. Ever. Blue is there as a "huh I guess I don't want to use him with anyone who has a blue skill"
  • QuebbsterQuebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    I rather like my 5/5/3 Iron Man. The red and green AP is almost always useful immediately, and in the cases the blue isn't I can always save up for a Ballistic Salvo. He's mostly a battery for other guys to feed off though.
  • hurculeshurcules Age Unconfirmed Posts: 519
    ark123 wrote:
    Never going over 5/5/1. Ever. Blue is there as a "huh I guess I don't want to use him with anyone who has a blue skill"
    5/5/2 will be useful when Goddess comes online.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Look for IM40 to be reworked on his cool down. I have heard hints and allegations that he will become a more useful character.

    I had heard about Star Lord's yellow and intially thought this was to be the IM40 rework so perhaps he will have something similar. Look to see his blue brought down in cost and the AP drain to go away.
  • Just the AP drain going away would be a huge step to making him more useful. I also expect the ability costs to be rebalanced so that they no longer increase with added covers because this was something they fixed on another character, cant remember who but maybe Daredevil?, and at the time they said it was a design that was no longer needed.
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