***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    So what's the problem, then? Sounds like Kang won't change anything at all!

    Neither did chasm. The same people are still at the top. Neither did bishop.

    Anyway this is getting way off topic, I’m off to stroke my ever increasing hoard.

    ??

    You were the one who said Kang was broken and needed to be nerfed...

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,987 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.

    When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.

    When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

    I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).

    The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.

    They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

    I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).

    The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.

    They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.

    I don’t know if you saw my previous post about Kang/Switch but I think he’ll be a a really good counter against them. So I don’t think I’m underselling. I do however think people are overselling and I’m trying to figure out what the actual problem is. The folks who 550’d the current meta aren’t going to be losing to 3* teams left and right. They’ll retain their top spots.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.

    In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.

    This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.

    In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.

    This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.

    The people just want to win everything forever unchallenged is a pretty big strawman. Unless I missed people who actually claimed that.

    The issue most people have isn’t that there is a Chasm counter. The counters are
    1- You can keep AP
    2- (When patched) you can perma-down an Immortal Bro by sending the other away.

    People don’t have issues with this character disrupting their free shields (at least I haven’t seen that).

    Their issue is that along with the counters above, they gave Kang an alternate win condition. Essentially a 27 AP “whales” that gets 9 AP cheaper with each character that is downed. That’s the real issue. I ask what the problem with that is because 3* players aren’t really going to be killing 5* teams left and right like that. The match damage alone would kill them. And yes, PVE scores may be a bit tighter, but I don’t see any 3* players taking those top spots.

    Faster grinds are a QOL improvement for everyone and those who grind the best will take the top spots like always. I think we need to let this play out before the sky is falling.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    Yeah, but nobody's going to show up and say "I believe it is my divine right to easily take first place rewards and float for days with no shield," though.

    All we can do is wait and see. Things may change or they may not. There haven't been a ton of complaints here yet anyway, and I'm not plugged into the optimizer Line chats so who knows what they're up to.

    I'd say to watch who complains, though, and read a bit into what they're complaining about. The attitude I'm describing certainly exists.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,987 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.

    When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.

    When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.

    Ignoring the fact that this is a different dev team, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Take away the auto-win and Kang is basically perfect.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think I was agreeing with all this?

    There have only been a couple "nerf Kang" posts so far, and they haven't really argued much of anything. I did recognize them though, and made some guesses.

    Anyway I probably shouldn't have speculated about what their arguments would be, at least not until they made them.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.

    When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.

    When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.

    Ignoring the fact that this is a different dev team, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Take away the auto-win and Kang is basically perfect.

    You think they can keep pushing the power level forever? How? You're going to run out of design space eventually.

    Anyway, Chasm/Hulk is a mindless auto-win, SW/Colossus is a mindless auto-win, so why shouldn't all 3* players get their own mindless auto-win? Seems fair to me.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Kang will be a piece of cake on defense? I think many of you are only focusing on 9 blues and away.
    But he's got a super cheap black hitting like a truck, and that AP can't be drained so the danger comes in black and blue.
    Paired with SW, there would be pain.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Has the dev said anything about nerfing Kang's blue in discord yet? Someone (Tony_Foot?) has verified that 5* Wasp rework won't counter Kang.

    And you don't need 5* Hawkeye for this to work. The situations where it's difficult for Kang team to work is where there are Carbage, Kitty, Dr Strange, Kraven/Carnage and strong enemy attack tiles on the board.

    And Kang Team still can't beat 672 Okoye or other boosted meta. I'm still getting booted out of T20 when all these metas are boosted.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,917 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    The only communication we've had is that they're "addressing" the interaction with the immortal guys as "high priority."

    Edit: didn't mean to say I doubt their priorities or their addressing! What I meant was, they didn't say what specifically they'd be fixing or when.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Update is out and and they have fixed the order of Chasm's ap destruction. Instead of his ap destruction taking place in between player's passive and countdownx of cd/repeater, it's happening before player's passive.

  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream Posts: 2,017 Chairperson of the Boards

    Mod note: Removed a couple of inappropriate posts. Please keep the discussion civil and on topic. If you regularly find a particular user's comments to be objectionable, we recommend using the Ignore List function which can be found in the Edit Profile section of your account. Thank you.

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