***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****

Sekilicious

@HoundofShadow said:
I think 12 minutes is when 550 Okoye is boosted, unless there's a new 550 team out there.

>

The point is, for players who want a shot at T10 in pves,.

Nope. That was Colossus, Chavez, Karnak. Colossus was 650+ yes. People with deep 550 rosters have a variety of meta teams they use, depending on the opponent and boosted character list.

My point is that the people with deep rosters probably have Hawkeye at a high level. I’m not sure how many yellow at start supports they have. All are willing to boost. So the challenge node only lasts three turns for them as well but they can still get the 1 turn kills for the majority of Pick-3.

entrailbucket

@killahKlown said:

@HoundofShadow said:
I think 12 minutes is when 550 Okoye is boosted, unless there's a new 550 team out there.

I used only SC teams and Kang teams for those 18 minutes clears, and my SC is baby champed. I didn't used Okoye at all. If that's what you're referring to.

The point is, for players who want a shot at T10 in pves, without bracket sniping and without saving 1-2 years of hoard to 550 Okoye, they have a shot using baby champed SC teams and Kang teams as long as they have the right Supports. We know that big news is coming out for Supports this month or next. So, let's see how the dev is going to rejuvenate Supports.

Hopefully they just kill Supports which will make this a non issue

Supposedly they have a big rework for supports coming, but do you think they'll kill them? The problem with supports now is that there's like 20 of them, and a few are "win the game turn 2" and the rest are like "do 5% additional red match damage to villains on Thursdays."

I assumed the rework would be fixing all the bad ones, but maybe they'll redo the good ones?

killahKlown

3 turns still seems slow. Especially with the loading of the boosts, the loading of the supports, the fortifying, then for each use of blue Kang having to create a fortified countdown. I count at least 7 delays per match in that. So this isn't much of a game changer.

I could see maybe helping people pass the CN a little quicker but that's about it.

HoundofShadow

I remember 550 Colossus now.

30 seconds is the fastest for most pick-3 nodes in SCL 10 with Kang team. Easy nodes take 13-15 seconds. I'll shall report any improvement in my placement after Okoye boost week is over. And you don't need 5* Hawkeye for this.

Sekilicious

@HoundofShadow said:
30 seconds is the fastest for most pick-3 nodes in SCL 10 with Kang team. Easy nodes take 13-15 seconds. I'll shall report any improvement in my placement after Okoye boost week is over. And you don't need 5* Hawkeye for this.

You’re going to have to provide receipts for anyone to believe that you don’t need Hawkeye provide blue for this to work. BRB and Polaris are too slow. Kang and IM40 only give 18 ap unless you have two yellow at start supports. So 22 with boosts, which means it’s up to rng to provide two blue matches. There aren’t many with big enough red + green nukes to kill whoever is left.

Blackstone

@entrailbucket said:

@Blackstone said:
I guess I'm not seeing the problem others are seeing.

With the right team, characters that aren't a part of the meta, Kang can be powerful and win against strong teams.

But he's also not difficult to beat.

So he's elevating other characters without creating an unbeatable wall that feels like punishment to face.

This all depends on your perspective. The relevant question is "can a character be overpowered on offense?"

For players who view MPQ as a single-player game, who play events just to earn rewards, the answer is no. These folks don't care/aren't impacted by what others do. Anything that gets you to those rewards faster is a good thing.

If you view MPQ primarily as a multiplayer game, then overpowered offensive characters present a problem. The whole game is based on speed, so making it faster for everyone else means you have to get faster too.

It seems like the first attitude is far more common around here (to the point where those with the second attitude are just dismissed as wrong constantly).

It wasn't my intent to dismiss anyone's perspective. I understand the importance of speed for placement rewards.

I just don't see Kang as the problem others do. I'm not even saying anyone needs to agree with me. Just stating my perspective. Other teams can clear as quickly without the need for supports and boosts. Unless, as I said in my last comment, I'm not seeing something others are seeing.

entrailbucket

Nah, I wasn't trying to call you (or anybody else) out. People see the game different ways and that's ok.

It just seems like many of these arguments aren't related to any specific character, they're related to a player's overall philosophy. If someone is saying that a particular guy is too good, and someone else's outlook on the game is such that an offensive character cannot ever be too good, then they're just arguing on completely different axes.

GrimSkald

@dianetics said:
I just want to know how to evaluate Kang. If the first case is true he is very good, if the second case is true he is far less valuable.

Obviously, Chasm broke the game.

I just want to know if I should waste resources on Kang or not, and without a clear explanation of AWAY I really have no idea.

We know what AIRBORNE does and we know what INVISIBLE does...so I want to know what AWAY does.

To be perfectly honest, my take on it is "away" is functionally exactly the same as "airborne," the only difference is one status has the "away" tag, the other the "airborne" tag. In both cases the character still counts as being in the fight (for purposes of resurrection mechanics and when a team wins,) but otherwise cannot be interacted with save by a power that explicitly interacts with characters in that status. The big difference, of course, is that there are a number of powers that interact with "airborne," at this time only Kang and Wong interact with "Away." Kang wins if all his opponents are "downed" or "Away," Wong ends "away" status if his allies are downed.

DjinnBabba

I think they wanted a mechanic that is NOT the same as airborne. Away would be out of the fight. Like in another dimension or realm.

HoundofShadow

All I can say is think out of the box. The only concerning thing is whether they will nerf his blue.

SourCream

@GrimSkald said:

@dianetics said:
I just want to know how to evaluate Kang. If the first case is true he is very good, if the second case is true he is far less valuable.

Obviously, Chasm broke the game.

I just want to know if I should waste resources on Kang or not, and without a clear explanation of AWAY I really have no idea.

We know what AIRBORNE does and we know what INVISIBLE does...so I want to know what AWAY does.

To be perfectly honest, my take on it is "away" is functionally exactly the same as "airborne," the only difference is one status has the "away" tag, the other the "airborne" tag. In both cases the character still counts as being in the fight (for purposes of resurrection mechanics and when a team wins,) but otherwise cannot be interacted with save by a power that explicitly interacts with characters in that status. The big difference, of course, is that there are a number of powers that interact with "airborne," at this time only Kang and Wong interact with "Away." Kang wins if all his opponents are "downed" or "Away," Wong ends "away" status if his allies are downed.

Similar take, "Away" means not present at the moment and still exist. Like going on a vacation and not present for work.

Using Wong as an example, because he is first with the "Away" status.
If pairing with 5Cyclops, casting Wong away will not unleash Dark Phoenix.
If pairing with iHulk, casting Wong away will not change his revive ability.
With 5Cyclops, still active. With iHulk, still an ally.
So with Kang, is it really "all" or bugged ?

entrailbucket

You're right. Changing the way Away works for the immortal guys could have unintended consequences for all sorts of other powers.

I don't envy the developers trying to figure this all out. I don't see a clear way forward here. It's not the testers' fault, either -- introducing a completely new state like this means you have to test it with hundreds of other characters, and potentially recode hundreds of abilities.

It'll be interesting to see what happens and when.

dianetics

If it is functionally the same as airborne...what is even the point of the status?

It would be like adding a new status PARALYZE that is functionally equivalent to STUN but with just a different name. Just so you can "paralyze" Apocalypse when he has a mutant on his team, or you could "paralyze" Silver Surfer or Moon Knight.

When it was explained in Wong's thread "The character in question isn't on the battlefield. When in this status, they cannot interact with the battle in any way, offensively or defensively."

He should not be targetable and no characters should not be able to "see" him.

So if Wong is away then...
C5ke should unleash dark phoenix. This does not make Cyclops top tier and doesn't change Wong's utility.
If iHulk is on your team he should not be able to revive.

For Kang, it does mean more meaningful choices for your away target though.

HoundofShadow

Away is a new status. Before that, We had downed, stunned, airborne and invisible. Another group is active and inactive(?).

They probably have to code new powers individually that affect other characters. Remember Chasm broke the game and the dev has to make changes to affected characters individually? It's likely happening with Away since it's a new function in the game.

entrailbucket

Ideally you'd really want to work all that out before you released characters that use the new status (and it'd be a massive amount of testing required), so something went wrong somewhere.

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:
Ideally you'd really want to work all that out before you released characters that use the new status (and it'd be a massive amount of testing required), so something went wrong somewhere.

You just described what went wrong: it takes a lot of testing. Enjoy life as a beta tester!

SourCream

@dianetics said:
If it is functionally the same as airborne...what is even the point of the status?

It would be like adding a new status PARALYZE that is functionally equivalent to STUN but with just a different name. Just so you can "paralyze" Apocalypse when he has a mutant on his team, or you could "paralyze" Silver Surfer or Moon Knight.

When it was explained in Wong's thread "The character in question isn't on the battlefield. When in this status, they cannot interact with the battle in any way, offensively or defensively."

He should not be targetable and no characters should not be able to "see" him.

So if Wong is away then...
C5ke should unleash dark phoenix. This does not make Cyclops top tier and doesn't change Wong's utility.
If iHulk is on your team he should not be able to revive.

For Kang, it does mean more meaningful choices for your away target though.

Whether to your liking or not, that's what happening in game with Wong + Away. Logically speaking, Kang should be the same.
New "status" provides more / new interaction within different characters, it's not all the same or just name.

Example :
Airborne takes damage from Archangel.
Away is safe from AOE, but invisible is not.

And to add on what @entrailbucket said ... that's just the nature of the beast for a game running for 10 years with 100+ characters.

Timemachinego

@entrailbucket said:
Nah, I wasn't trying to call you (or anybody else) out. People see the game different ways and that's ok.

It just seems like many of these arguments aren't related to any specific character, they're related to a player's overall philosophy. If someone is saying that a particular guy is too good, and someone else's outlook on the game is such that an offensive character cannot ever be too good, then they're just arguing on completely different axes.

I liked the way you laid out two opposing points, but I think there's room for seeing the game as a competitive single-player game as well (at least in regards to PVE), basically like speedrunning with built-in leaderboards. That's essentially how I view it, it can be a level playing field but those with newer tricks and techniques can do better than others until they also adopt them. I find this absolutely fine for PVE; the fact that you can't simply 550 Okoye and then win the race forever is fantastic because it keeps that side of the game thriving imo and "Punch Up" characters are the main mechanism we see keeping things from stagnating on that side. Are 550'd Okoye or Apoc players typically the top5? Yes, but there's a lot more variety when you look at the t20 at least and those t5s are still likely having to play super optimally (with the spreadsheets and timers and all of that jazz).

The problem imo is how those characters then perform in PVP and how we interpret their ability to punch up in terms of what we believe is fair. I tend to climb high and then trade retals with midrange "fun" teams to get to 50 wins (still have difficulty making it to 1200 without more coordination/hopping than I care to engage in) and every so often I'll get absolutely destroyed somehow by a much smaller roster. I do pause and think about it for a minute but who knows, maybe they tossed some whales at me because I was worth the points to them or they pulled off some incredible strategy that I'd never even thought of. I really never take this kind of loss to heart even if it seems "unfair" on paper. Personally, I find it stings a lot more when I'm getting punched down at by a roster that puts mine to shame.

dianetics

@SourCream said:
Whether to your liking or not, that's what happening in game with Wong + Away. Logically speaking, Kang should be the same.
New "status" provides more / new interaction within different characters, it's not all the same or just name.

Example :
Airborne takes damage from Archangel.
Away is safe from AOE, but invisible is not.

I wasn't responding to you directly, but @GrimSkald and his view of what away is/should be doing.

The way it is working now is functionally the same as airborne. Since, as another use mentioned Apoc's red appeared to target She-Hulk when she was away.
This should be a bug right?
We believe AWAY is being fixed to negate revive mechanics. This makes it functionally unique and different.

So if it going to do this for iHulk/Chasm pairing, should it not also work similarly with Cyclops and an iHulk teammate?
Just speculating.

SourCream

Well, you mentioned Dark Phoenix, so I kept the thread going.
As for She-Hulk + Away with Apoc's red ..........

https://streamable.com/qs0oc8

Still active, immune to damage ???