***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:
    You are a 550 player though. So burn a tent pole down you have a ton of other poles to keep your tent up.

    There are groups of players who are moving into the 5* tier saving for months if not years to make the jump.

    This isn’t WoW where you can reroll the newest OP class in a week.

    What about the players that finally make the jump to see their characters reverted to trash tier? It’s even crazier to think that you spend real money on a character only to see it nerfed after release.

    There is another game I played where it was common practice to release OP characters and then nerf them a week or 2 before the next release. The game died because they ran large portions of their community away.

    The answer to this is to build out a diverse roster instead of going all-in on the good characters. Players saving up for years are doing it to take 3 5* to 550, not to reach 450.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,653 Chairperson of the Boards

    Of course the pragmatic approach is best. I totally 100% agree.

    But not everyone operates that way. I didn’t jump for a meta character, but there are plenty of people who do.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @dianetics said:
    Of course the pragmatic approach is best. I totally 100% agree.

    But not everyone operates that way. I didn’t jump for a meta character, but there are plenty of people who do.

    They took a risk doing that and it didn't pay off. There has to be some downside to going all-in, you're essentially gambling that those characters will be useful forever. It's been the case for awhile now but it hasn't always been so, and players aren't in control of the game. You're putting your fate in the hands of the devs when you do that -- there's nothing stopping them from screwing you over at any time.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,653 Chairperson of the Boards

    Well not forever but long enough to grow your economy. But, I get it.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,657 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    It's the actual counter for all the crazy overpowered defensive passives we've been getting, going back to when SW/Colossus was everywhere. 9ap kill a guy is absolutely a new level of power and it's something we've never seen, but how else do you make those guys beatable?

    I’d say damage that cannot be reduced was the counter to those teams. Mechanics that got introduced with Gamora and Ultron, but they didn’t go far enough with it I think. I believe there was some fertile ground there but it was sort of forgotten about and everyone moved on to Chas anyway.

    @entrailbucket said:

    @dianetics said:
    We’ll see how it shakes out in pvp. In PvE though, sure we finally have something different after 2+ years Warhulkoye.

    Im not convinced this is the iHulk/Chasm counter though.

    They did say they're working on fixing the interaction with the immortal guys. I guess we'll see.

    I thought you too said you didn’t think Chas, even with Away working properly would counter the Hulkasm meta. Has that changed now that more videos are being released?

    I think I somehow underestimated the power of "9ap kill a guy," but I do still think we're going to see a Chasm wall, at least for a little while.

    Kang is pretty awful on defense, so it's probably going to end up in a situation where you climb against Chasm teams using Kang, then switch to Chasm to float. Players with Kang will beat you, but others won't be able to -- until Kang becomes more widespread.

    I don't know what it will look like then. And it may not take very long to hit that state, but it's impossible to predict that. The thing is, Chasm/Hulk is really not a great offensive team -- it's slow. People are using it for defensive value, and it was very good at that. Once Kang essentially removes defense from the game I'm not sure there will be much incentive to use Chasm over a full-bore offensive team.

    I'd say the main reason that Chasm/Hulk is the meta is because they're good offensively against virtually all teams (we'll see if Kang proves the exception to this since he negates the AP drain,) though not fast against any, they're at least "good" defensively against almost all teams, and mirror matches (the safest best for any meta) are downright horrible. I swear, I have never come closer to quitting the game completely in my SIM Mirror matches against Chasm/Hulk. They're absolutely miserable to play -- even when they go okay they're boring as tinykitty.

    Anyway, back on point (and to not devolve into the "nerf Chasm" topic again, since we have our own threads for that,) I guess we'll see if Kang budges the meta - he has two things working for him there -- the negation of Chasm's most annoying attribute and tactically sending character's "Away." Even if they don't equate "Away" with "Downed" (and, for example, iHulk specifically indicates he resurrects if he has "Non-Downed" allies,) it will still be useful to stop Chasm from spamming his web tiles or iHulk from damaging your team.

    I strongly suspect it probably won't, though. He'll be great when boosted, but at this point there are a number of teams that are good against Hulk/Chasm when boosted. That's not the real overall problem...

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    To be clear, I'm totally guessing up there. The MPQ metagame is impossible to predict and it doesn't always operate logically or even rationally. Your take is every bit as reasonable as mine.

    It'll be fun to watch what happens, though!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh, I also love that all the "meta" characters people have heavily pulled for are either easily countered by Kang or totally useless when paired with him.

    People with 550 Okoyes and Apocalypses about to get smashed in PvE by 2 3* and Hawkeye! It's delightful!

    Easily? You will still take a ton of damage in pick 2. I still ran ihulk and okoye in pve because it’s still faster in all but the CN. I also take no damage or can heal it up for free. I also can rip through the pick 2 nodes.

    You will get smashed back in pvp every time you use him as it’s zero risk to take him on. Thor and Shang would scare me more.

    So what's the problem, then? Sounds like Kang won't change anything at all!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    So what's the problem, then? Sounds like Kang won't change anything at all!

    Neither did chasm. The same people are still at the top. Neither did bishop.

    Anyway this is getting way off topic, I’m off to stroke my ever increasing hoard.

    ??

    You were the one who said Kang was broken and needed to be nerfed...

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,990 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.

    When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.

    When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

    I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).

    The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.

    They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,990 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.

    Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.

    Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).

    I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).

    The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.

    They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.

    I don’t know if you saw my previous post about Kang/Switch but I think he’ll be a a really good counter against them. So I don’t think I’m underselling. I do however think people are overselling and I’m trying to figure out what the actual problem is. The folks who 550’d the current meta aren’t going to be losing to 3* teams left and right. They’ll retain their top spots.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.

    In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.

    This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,990 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.

    In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.

    This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.

    The people just want to win everything forever unchallenged is a pretty big strawman. Unless I missed people who actually claimed that.

    The issue most people have isn’t that there is a Chasm counter. The counters are
    1- You can keep AP
    2- (When patched) you can perma-down an Immortal Bro by sending the other away.

    People don’t have issues with this character disrupting their free shields (at least I haven’t seen that).

    Their issue is that along with the counters above, they gave Kang an alternate win condition. Essentially a 27 AP “whales” that gets 9 AP cheaper with each character that is downed. That’s the real issue. I ask what the problem with that is because 3* players aren’t really going to be killing 5* teams left and right like that. The match damage alone would kill them. And yes, PVE scores may be a bit tighter, but I don’t see any 3* players taking those top spots.

    Faster grinds are a QOL improvement for everyone and those who grind the best will take the top spots like always. I think we need to let this play out before the sky is falling.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    Yeah, but nobody's going to show up and say "I believe it is my divine right to easily take first place rewards and float for days with no shield," though.

    All we can do is wait and see. Things may change or they may not. There haven't been a ton of complaints here yet anyway, and I'm not plugged into the optimizer Line chats so who knows what they're up to.

    I'd say to watch who complains, though, and read a bit into what they're complaining about. The attitude I'm describing certainly exists.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.

    When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.

    When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.

    Ignoring the fact that this is a different dev team, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Take away the auto-win and Kang is basically perfect.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,966 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think I was agreeing with all this?

    There have only been a couple "nerf Kang" posts so far, and they haven't really argued much of anything. I did recognize them though, and made some guesses.

    Anyway I probably shouldn't have speculated about what their arguments would be, at least not until they made them.

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