***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****
Comments
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@Tony_Foot said:
Neither did chasm. The same people are still at the top. Neither did bishop.
Anyway this is getting way off topic, I’m off to stroke my ever increasing hoard.
??
You were the one who said Kang was broken and needed to be nerfed...
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@Tony_Foot said:
Easily? You will still take a ton of damage in pick 2. I still ran ihulk and okoye in pve because it’s still faster in all but the CN. I also take no damage or can heal it up for free. I also can rip through the pick 2 nodes.
You will get smashed back in pvp every time you use him as it’s zero risk to take him on. Thor and Shang would scare me more.
I agree with all of this. Except I find for my roster (Okoye is only lvl 505 unboosted), Blue Man Group is much faster in pick 3 matches. But we still have pick 2, so the 550 crowd will still reign.
I totally agree with the PVP assessment though. Kang is essentially Shang-Chi. He can punch way up but is a joke defensively. And they didn’t nerf Shang. The difference is that Shang has a number of viable pick 2 partners and can even solo on a half-decent board. Kang doesn’t have that kind of synergy yet.
Calling it a 9 AP auto kill is a bit of a misnomer. You have to kill two other people for that to trigger. But it is absolutely that if you get down to one character.
I think Kang/Switch might be the best we’ve got to face Chasm/Hulk.
- Switch can fuel blue
- Kang allows you to keep the blue
- Kang restoring AP keeps Chasm’s damage lower
- Switch can negate the big AOE damage
- Both Chasm and Hulk self- damage, making once slow matches ultra quick.
So,
- Target the essential and whittle him down while you chase blue
- Send Chasm away ASAP
- Hulk is left eating self-damage every match and eating 4+ tics from Wanda every turn. I’m sure he’s dead before Chasm returns.
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I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.
Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.
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@Borstock said:
I don't remember any of the people asking for a Chasm counter requesting a 3* auto-win character. I don't remember any of them (us) asking for a 5* auto-win character.Without speaking for anyone else, all I wanted was a way to counter/recoup the AP drain and/or a way to permadown a revive character. The "broken" part of Kang has nothing to do with either of those.
Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).
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When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.
When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.
When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.
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@Daredevil217 said:
Again, he’s not auto-win. He still has to chase A LOT of AP in order to do it. So it isn’t “auto”. In Sim, yes he’ll be a great offensive option (joke on D), but in pick 2 you’ll have to work. You could argue that any of the winfinite characters are just as “auto”. Actually, since the AI is dumb, most teams in general can be penciled in as a W (except against Hulkgasm). I could be down for the 3* losing his away win condition and leaving it on the 5 I guess. The reality is humans are winning 90% of their fights anyway. Kang just allows you to do so faster is all (and for me that’s only in PVE with supports. In sim without supports it’s harder. And in pick 2 without supports or 2 batteries it’s harder still).
I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).
The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.
They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.
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@entrailbucket said:
I think you're underselling him a bit here (and I'm probably overselling him, but it's too much fun not to).
The fact is that currently there's no good counter to Hulk/Chasm in pick-2 or to Hulk/Chasm/X in pick-3. Kang isn't perfect, and he isn't automatic, but he is a much, much better counter than everything we have right now. That means that players used to near-total immunity will no longer have it.
They never wanted a counter. They just wanted to win stuff, and felt that because they were so much smarter than everyone else, they were entitled to win everything forever.
I don’t know if you saw my previous post about Kang/Switch but I think he’ll be a a really good counter against them. So I don’t think I’m underselling. I do however think people are overselling and I’m trying to figure out what the actual problem is. The folks who 550’d the current meta aren’t going to be losing to 3* teams left and right. They’ll retain their top spots.
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They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.
In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.
This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.
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@entrailbucket said:
They'll retain their top spots, but they'll have to work harder to do so in PvE because a lot more players will be able to put up competitive times.In PvP, their teams will be much more easily beatable, and potentially they'll be losing to some lower tier teams now too. They won't be able to float forever with (mostly) impunity the way they can now.
This sounds relatively tame but is actually a complete disaster when your expectation is to trivially win everything forever.
The people just want to win everything forever unchallenged is a pretty big strawman. Unless I missed people who actually claimed that.
The issue most people have isn’t that there is a Chasm counter. The counters are
1- You can keep AP
2- (When patched) you can perma-down an Immortal Bro by sending the other away.People don’t have issues with this character disrupting their free shields (at least I haven’t seen that).
Their issue is that along with the counters above, they gave Kang an alternate win condition. Essentially a 27 AP “whales” that gets 9 AP cheaper with each character that is downed. That’s the real issue. I ask what the problem with that is because 3* players aren’t really going to be killing 5* teams left and right like that. The match damage alone would kill them. And yes, PVE scores may be a bit tighter, but I don’t see any 3* players taking those top spots.
Faster grinds are a QOL improvement for everyone and those who grind the best will take the top spots like always. I think we need to let this play out before the sky is falling.
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Yeah, but nobody's going to show up and say "I believe it is my divine right to easily take first place rewards and float for days with no shield," though.
All we can do is wait and see. Things may change or they may not. There haven't been a ton of complaints here yet anyway, and I'm not plugged into the optimizer Line chats so who knows what they're up to.
I'd say to watch who complains, though, and read a bit into what they're complaining about. The attitude I'm describing certainly exists.
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I think we can keep this discussion civil.
EB, some players may well feel that way, and I would make similar arguments to you (no meta lasts forever, there’s always risk in going “all in”, it’s the developers’ game, etc.) if they were actually here making those claims. But, I’m not about to argue with an invisible army. I’ve seen other posters do it and I don’t love it.
It’s also important not to lump people complaining about the alternate win condition in with people who don’t want to see their Chasm investment turned to dust (again, if those people are even here). I’m challenging those who don’t like the alternate win condition or fear it’s impact on the meta game, because I personally find it fun and it speeds up my grind.
Similarly I was pro-Chasm nerf because I found him unfun and he slowed down my climbs (I also hate playing the same teams over and over). Not because I can’t
beat him or have pro gamer skillz. Very important not to conflate issues because it does turn the argument to straw.6 -
@entrailbucket said:
When people asked for a counter to Scarlet Witch, they didn't request an immortal guy who could absorb infinite damage and keep resurrecting forever.When people asked for a counter to Hulk, they didn't demand a character who also hard-countered cascades and attack tiles.
When you continually escalate the overall power level to counter each previous overpowered guy, you're going to hit auto-win status eventually. This is what happens when you refuse to fix your mistakes.
Ignoring the fact that this is a different dev team, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Take away the auto-win and Kang is basically perfect.
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I think I was agreeing with all this?
There have only been a couple "nerf Kang" posts so far, and they haven't really argued much of anything. I did recognize them though, and made some guesses.
Anyway I probably shouldn't have speculated about what their arguments would be, at least not until they made them.
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@Borstock said:
Ignoring the fact that this is a different dev team, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Take away the auto-win and Kang is basically perfect.
You think they can keep pushing the power level forever? How? You're going to run out of design space eventually.
Anyway, Chasm/Hulk is a mindless auto-win, SW/Colossus is a mindless auto-win, so why shouldn't all 3* players get their own mindless auto-win? Seems fair to me.
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I don't have time to fully read pages upon pages of players thoughts, but for players calling for a nerf in any way, I will completely disagree and I will be disappointed if the devs do any changes to either 3/5* version. This is why:
PvP: He's beatable. If I got hit a bunch of times by either version, so what? Easy rental wins/points! I'd rather get hit by Kang than team Immortal, which turns into a skip. Most would agree Polaris rules 4* land, but there's no reason to nerf her because she's beatable (outside of some cascade ****).
PvE: He provides the ability to make clears faster. PvE can be very time consuming, I'm happy to have a new way to reduce some time. If players are worried about losing placement, then use him! It's no different than when the Kitty/Grocket combo was making SCL7/8 faster.
Team Combinations: My favorite part about Kang is the number of different combos across all tiers! I posted on 3* Kang page at least 6 different teams in just 4* land. I love that we can pair him with more than just 1 or 2 characters. Due to this, you cannot say it's unfair that you don't have a specific partner (e.g., 5* HE) when there are many others you can utilize!
Overall, this is how the devs designed him. He's not overly complex like Chasm. Therefore, I'd like to think the devs knew what they were doing when they created and tested him. I've been playing on/off since 2014, some nerfs made sense (e.g., Gambit), while some didn't (e.g., OML), but all have pissed players off.
I look forward to his release store and when he enters LL.
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Kang will be a piece of cake on defense? I think many of you are only focusing on 9 blues and away.
But he's got a super cheap black hitting like a truck, and that AP can't be drained so the danger comes in black and blue.
Paired with SW, there would be pain.3 -
Has the dev said anything about nerfing Kang's blue in discord yet? Someone (Tony_Foot?) has verified that 5* Wasp rework won't counter Kang.
And you don't need 5* Hawkeye for this to work. The situations where it's difficult for Kang team to work is where there are Carbage, Kitty, Dr Strange, Kraven/Carnage and strong enemy attack tiles on the board.
And Kang Team still can't beat 672 Okoye or other boosted meta. I'm still getting booted out of T20 when all these metas are boosted.
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The only communication we've had is that they're "addressing" the interaction with the immortal guys as "high priority."
Edit: didn't mean to say I doubt their priorities or their addressing! What I meant was, they didn't say what specifically they'd be fixing or when.
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Update is out and and they have fixed the order of Chasm's ap destruction. Instead of his ap destruction taking place in between player's passive and countdownx of cd/repeater, it's happening before player's passive.
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Mod note: Removed a couple of inappropriate posts. Please keep the discussion civil and on topic. If you regularly find a particular user's comments to be objectionable, we recommend using the Ignore List function which can be found in the Edit Profile section of your account. Thank you.
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