The ChaHulk meta

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  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    My mmr is similar to Sekilicious. Mine might be slightly higher. I used SC + mThor / AC to climb this week and I hit 1200 in slice 1. For your case, it's likely a timing or playstyle problem.

    What kind of opponents are you hitting, point-wise?

    Timing-wise, there isn't a specific timing to play. Just climb anytime 24 hours before the pvps ends, and don't climb a few hours (~5 hours) before pvps end.

    We may have the same MMR but I have probably 1/4 of the 5s you have champed. The only time I have ever had two champed boosted was when KK and mThor were boosted.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,019 Chairperson of the Boards

    I believe boosted characters do not affect matchmaking anymore, because when they did (years ago, when 4* boosts first became a thing), that caused big problems.

    Matchmaking is really complicated because it started off simple and then players figured out ways to exploit it (over and over and over again). It's had about 100 increasingly bizarre fixes, one-offs and exceptions applied to it, some of which were designed to fix exploits from the early days of the game that don't/can't even exist anymore.

    If they actually are redoing it from scratch, they'll need to be very careful to not introduce new exploits, because players will be looking for them right away.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Weekly boosted 5* was introduced in May/June 2021. Back then, I had only ~15 champed 5* and there were about 57 5*. My probability of hitting one boosted 5* was pretty low, which is ~1/4. And my best non-boosted option were 5* Wanda/Colossus. Anyway, we can only agree to disagree on this.

    It's probably time for the dev to remove boosted 5 from pvps because I believe there are enough varieties in pvps. Shield sim is a pretty good reflection of what you would see in pvps: pretty much one meta + any common partners. SC/Riri + mThor should be pretty common and they are considered glass cannon. Hit-Monkey/Wanda is a glass cannon. Chasm would be much easier to deal with. Wouldn't non-win-based players prefer climbing on glass cannons than slogging against boosted 5*? You get fewer variety but your climb would be easier with all these glass cannons.

    Reworked mmr will probably come next year and I wonder if they would inject fake players/seed teams into mid/late climb. Doing this is probably the best way to solve mmr and lack of variety problem for different tiers of players if they remove boost from pvps. This will also solve problems for 1-4 players who are paired against similar tier players who put 5* characters out on defense. The algorithms will push players pre-made duos if there's a lack of opponents and adjust their levels based on their top 3-5 average.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Boosted 5* also affect 2-4 players and many of them are complaining about getting paired against boosted 5*, and the dev said something like mmr rework will also target this problem they are facing. Currently, mmr ignores 5* which are below a certain level for young players but this doesn't prevent them from getting matched against boosted non-championed 5*. I'm not sure how they are going to solve this problem, unless they ban all players below 5* tiers from using 5* characters.

    As for the potential "tapping" problem, they could limit it to 1200 points and below.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,019 Chairperson of the Boards

    My guess is they'd just hack in a workaround so players with rosters below a certain level don't see enemies over a certain level. (Players will absolutely figure out a way to exploit that by softcapping, though) The matchmaking algorithm is like 75% workarounds at this point anyway, one more won't kill them. Removing boosted 5* from the game entirely would be a massive overreaction to a relatively contained problem.

    If you cap points at 1200, wouldn't everyone at 1200 win first place? That's not really a "versus" mode, it sounds like you're asking them to remove placement rewards and make pvp progression-only.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,769 Chairperson of the Boards

    They just need to change the 5* boost from a flat +100 levels to be a proportional boost based on how much the 5* is leveled.

    For champed 5* (L450+) it would be 100% of +100 levels which is +100 levels as it is now.
    For an unleveled 5* (L255) it would be 0% of +100 levels which is +0 levels.
    For a L350 5* (~half way between 255 and 450) it would be 50% of +100 or +50 levels.

    This would reduce the affect of the 5* boost for 2-4* MMR.

    KGB

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    @KGB said:
    They just need to change the 5* boost from a flat +100 levels to be a proportional boost based on how much the 5* is leveled.

    For champed 5* (L450+) it would be 100% of +100 levels which is +100 levels as it is now.
    For an unleveled 5* (L255) it would be 0% of +100 levels which is +0 levels.
    For a L350 5* (~half way between 255 and 450) it would be 50% of +100 or +50 levels.

    This would reduce the affect of the 5* boost for 2-4* MMR.

    KGB

    You're absolutely NOT getting even MORE benefits for softcapping, no way.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    I meant the "fake players" will disappear from 1100-1200 points onwards. Anything beyond that is your normal mmr.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Imo what is needed is more people engaging pvp. With the rewards per win decreased people trying to climb losed engagement.
    Thanks to the chahulk meta the points on pvp scarced. Riri and the monkey will fix that soon.
    Imo what is needed is to incentivate pvp per points, perhaps an exclusive increase to rewards 1000 and 1200 points.
    More engagement means more variety more options to skip and ultimately more fun.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,720 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:
    Imo what is needed is more people engaging pvp. With the rewards per win decreased people trying to climb losed engagement.

    Totally agree. I appreciate them lowering the number of wins for the 4* rewards down to 25. However, that creates a huge gap between win 25 and win 50 and, to be honest, the reward to get to 50 wins just isn't worth it.

    There needs to be more incentive to get from 25 to 50 and then, as Bad says, more people would stay and play in PVP.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    The gap has always been 25, isn't it? I remember it was 50 and 75.

    Point wise, the gap is 1000 and 1200.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,516 Chairperson of the Boards

    When the CP was put at 1000 points a while back it seemed to drive engagement but I guess the Devs saw too many people were getting there. I know during that season I hit 10,000+ due to the CP incentive whereas these days I can't always be bothered to do so.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Another theory I heard is that it reduced engagement because cp is worth more than 4* shards. CP at 50 wins or 1000 points was a thing for a couple of weeks?.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,516 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    Another theory I heard is that it reduced engagement because cp is worth more than 4* shards. CP at 50 wins or 1000 points was a thing for a couple of weeks?.

    Yeah, I can't remember how long it was for but I personally found it a big incentive. I could be an outlier though.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's possible for both experience to exist together. Players who are used to hitting 75wins or 1200 wins would stop at 50 or 1000 wins due to the switch since 4* shards aren't worth the extra 25 wins. On the other hand, players who don't go for 75 wins or 1200 wins are aiming for 50 wins/1000 points instead.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,516 Chairperson of the Boards

    I suppose changing 4* shards for 5* shards could be the fix to keeping players going.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,019 Chairperson of the Boards

    Players love using strong defensive teams, because it means others can't attack them easily.

    Players hate facing strong defensive teams, because they can't attack others easily.

    Unfortunately, in a PvP game, it's really hard to balance these impulses. The best solution here is to make sure that teams that are good on defense are bad on offense and vice versa, but the game isn't necessarily deep enough to make that happen easily. One way might be to change certain characters' powers based on whether they're on offense or defense.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I suppose changing 4* shards for 5* shards could be the fix to keeping players going.

    hhmmmm 250 5* shards for 1200 pts and 50 wins, dropping cp to 1100 and 35 sounds wonderful. Especially if they only rotated the classics.

    Normally, I would suggest this become its own thread but the Chasm hatefest seems to have jumped the shark. Someone let me know if they want the rewards discussion split out.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    They will put 5* shards in pvp progression rewards after they release 6*.

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