*** Sentry (Dark Avengers) ***

Pwuz_

dkffiv wrote:

1) True healers make better tanks (Xforce/Patch/Groot) and if I wanted a straight up meat shield why would I ever use Sentry over Lthor?

Perhaps you don't have a fully covered Thor yet? I don't.

dkffiv wrote:

2) He's okay on defense but other characters (Lthor, Panther, Patch) will mess you up a lot more for similar or cheaper AP costs. Captain Marvel or Hulk at least prevent the other team from using AoE attacks.

Again, not every player has access to every fully covered character. I typically run Sentry along with Panter for my PvP defensive team. Patch is too risky in my experience as a well played 2* team can use an enemy Patch to take down a team they otherwise have no chance against. Hulk is pretty much a non-threat at this point, I often find when I accidentally leave him out for my defensive team, the retaliations look like I have a giant "FREE POINTS HERE" sign on my team. Sentry gets me some defensive wins. Sure it's not a lot since most players typically have a good idea of their strength and don't choose to bite off more than they can chew, but I can't recall the last time one of my Hulk teams brought home any defensive points.

dkffiv wrote:

3) Sac is inflicting around 1.5-2 hours worth of damage on yourself for a tile that you hope lasts for more than a turn. On D it can make a big difference but on O you're going to be killing your sustainability.

That 1.5-2 hours doesn't mean much when you are about to take a break anyway. I'm not arguing Sentry is a good climber (True healers are much better for that), but he doesn't have to be part of your climbing team to be your defensive team.

dkffiv wrote:

4) Without a kit isn't his heal time like 8 hours from death?

Give or take. Sounds like a good night sleep or an average shift at work to me. And just because he COULD die during that final fight before bed, doesn't mean he has to.

dkffiv

I posted in the suggestions thread, I think the best way to fix him would be to cause red to damage self only rather than the team (maybe double the current damage he does to himself), yellow mostly the same and change green to an Xforce Recovery type CD tile that will true heal back the damage you've done to yourself. His power levels are nowhere near what Jugg does with self-inflicted damage and I have a really hard time playing Devil's Advocate on when I would use him over any other 3* in the game.

dkffiv

I feel part of you sentiment is that you have a fully leveled Sentry. If a new player somehow came into a fully covered (but not leveled) Sentry by insane token luck and had say a 5 covered LThor, I would definitely recommend leveling Thor whereas I would say do not invest ISO at all into Sentry. The only reason I maxed my Sentry in the first place was to shield hop, given the option now I would leave him at level 40.

Sentry is a really bad character, what I view as the worst of the 3*. If you offered me a fully maxed Beast, Sentry, or Rag I could at least come up with situations where the other 2 might be useful. He is a minor annoyance when boosted on defense but I would never opt to use him on offense or in PvE.

Unknown

dkffiv wrote:

I posted in the suggestions thread, I think the best way to fix him would be to cause red to damage self only rather than the team (maybe double the current damage he does to himself), yellow mostly the same and change green to an Xforce Recovery type CD tile that will true heal back the damage you've done to yourself. His power levels are nowhere near what Jugg does with self-inflicted damage and I have a really hard time playing Devil's Advocate on when I would use him over any other 3* in the game.

Juggs does very little damage. Unless you mean scaled juggs, which should in no way be compared to 3*s. We don't want all 3*s being as powerful as a 270 juggs.

Pwuz_

dkffiv wrote:

I feel part of you sentiment is that you have a fully leveled Sentry. If a new player somehow came into a fully covered (but not leveled) Sentry by insane token luck and had say a 5 covered LThor, I would definitely recommend leveling Thor whereas I would say do not invest ISO at all into Sentry. The only reason I maxed my Sentry in the first place was to shield hop, given the option now I would leave him at level 40.

Sentry is a really bad character, what I view as the worst of the 3*. If you offered me a fully maxed Beast, Sentry, or Rag I could at least come up with situations where the other 2 might be useful. He is a minor annoyance when boosted on defense but I would never opt to use him on offense or in PvE.

Haha, you're right, I do have a fully leveled Sentry, though I didn't get the covers for him till after the nerf went into effect. I would level my Beast if he had enough covers too though. My intention is actually to level every character eventually. I've got other maxed characters to use as well, but Sentry is my 2nd best defensive character right now (behind Black Panther.)

I choose to use Sentry over my fully leveled Punisher, Hulk, Human Torch, Grey Suit Black Widow, Patch, Falcon, Captain America, Hood (who is stuck at only 4 Blue), Psylocke, or Spiderman. I prefer to use teams that offer active abilities in at least 5 colors, so really only the 1st 5 of those are suitable options to pair with my Black Panther.

A new player entering into 3* range would be advised to level ANY character they have the covers for. Sure once you have one of each cover you COULD spend HP on covers, but that's not always how your rewards pan out. I had 5 green covers for my Thor before I got my 1st Red or Yellow.

Unknown

Sentry used to be a trade off. You'd take an entire battle's worth of damage using Sentry's self-damaging abilities in order to win that match faster.

Now, you take an entire's battle's worth of damage using Sentry's self-damaging abilities, but you also take an additional entire battle's worth of damage from the match because the fight is not over quickly.

In other words, your team may of taken 2000 health damage each from sentry's abilities, and another 750 from battle damage. Now you still take the 2000 damage from the abilities, but you also take 2750+ because the battle last so much longer. So basically, if you use Sentry, you take twice the battle damage you would take using a different character.

The biggest problem, World Rupture was nerfed twice because somone was unable to decide which nerf would be sufficient. Either raising the cost to 12 green AP OR raising the count downs to 3 would have been sufficient to balance the character. However, both in conjuction just makes Sentry an albatross.

Actually, there is a bigger problem. Having seen that Sentry (who supposedly being overpowered is his thing) is relegated to the C (or lower) team, there has been no buff to his abilities to fix the overnerfing.

Unknown

World Rupture should've simply destroyed the preset number of tiles instantly for 12 green AP, dealing damage equal to what the CDs would've done had they all went off. If it's too good they can tweak the damage some, but it'd destroy at most 16 tiles which isn't all that different from many board clearing moves so clearly the concept cannot be inherently overpowered and you just have to twek the self/enemy damage to some number that makes sense.

Houtro

I think he should be removed from everyone's memory. And then come back furious as ever and destroy everything with the power of a million exploding suns (WR)

dkffiv

ark123 wrote:

Juggs does very little damage. Unless you mean scaled juggs, which should in no way be compared to 3*s. We don't want all 3*s being as powerful as a 270 juggs.

Juggs: 3520 HP, deals 1100 damage takes 550. Deals 31.25% of an omega tank's life for 15.625% of his. MBW 1540 HP and I'm fairly certain she scales the same as GSBW (5950). OBW is 3430, AWolv is 3920, Patch is 6800. 3920/3430 = 6800 / 5950 = 1.143 HP ratio. An average HP character at level 40 would have 1760 HP.

Jugg deals 62.5% of an average characters life for 15.625% of his own for 6 red AP.

Sentries yellow deals 16.9% of his max life to himself to make a 571 Strike tile (roughly triple his match damage). 4 sources of damage technically compensates for the self inflicted damage but rarely in this game do you ever want to just come out even on an exchange. 1724 damage is a huge chunk of life.

Best case scenario sentry 11 red ap (assuming everyone else is 6800 hp) - 9.5% to Sentry 14.1% to both allies for 73% to all 3 enemies. That's also assuming there are 9 red tiles to destroy. On paper its about on par or slightly better than Headbutt (3 targets for a little less than double the cost) but spreading out the damage to everyone on your team is much worse for health kit consumption.

Green is so messed up its hard to calculate. Pre nerf green did pretty friggin terrible damage without strike tiles up and now the tiles don't even survive.

All in all he'd be in a better place is green was fixed or changed or something not ****, yellow didn't mess him up so badly and if red only damaged himself.

dkffiv

Houtro wrote:

I think he should be removed from everyone's memory. And then come back furious as ever and destroy everything with the power of a million exploding suns (WR)

If they went meta and removed him from everyone's roster and then made posts on the forums about how he never existed then reintroduced him later rebalanced I would be incredibly impressed.

Unknown

Houtro wrote:

I think he should be removed from everyone's memory. And then come back furious as ever and destroy everything with the power of a million exploding suns (WR)

That would be a job for 4* The Void...

Unknown

dkffiv wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Juggs does very little damage. Unless you mean scaled juggs, which should in no way be compared to 3*s. We don't want all 3*s being as powerful as a 270 juggs.

Juggs: 3520 HP, deals 1100 damage takes 550. Deals 31.25% of an omega tank's life for 15.625% of his. MBW 1540 HP and I'm fairly certain she scales the same as GSBW (5950). OBW is 3430, AWolv is 3920, Patch is 6800. 3920/3430 = 6800 / 5950 = 1.143 HP ratio. An average HP character at level 40 would have 1760 HP.

Jugg deals 62.5% of an average characters life for 15.625% of his own for 6 red AP.

Sentries yellow deals 16.9% of his max life to himself to make a 571 Strike tile (roughly triple his match damage). 4 sources of damage technically compensates for the self inflicted damage but rarely in this game do you ever want to just come out even on an exchange. 1724 damage is a huge chunk of life.

Best case scenario sentry 11 red ap (assuming everyone else is 6800 hp) - 9.5% to Sentry 14.1% to both allies for 73% to all 3 enemies. That's also assuming there are 9 red tiles to destroy. On paper its about on par or slightly better than Headbutt (3 targets for a little less than double the cost) but spreading out the damage to everyone on your team is much worse for health kit consumption.

Green is so messed up its hard to calculate. Pre nerf green did pretty friggin terrible damage without strike tiles up and now the tiles don't even survive.

All in all he'd be in a better place is green was fixed or changed or something not ****, yellow didn't mess him up so badly and if red only damaged himself.

Abilities are not designed to scale like that. As evidence I present every high placing team on Balance of Power using Juggs - You can't compare 3*s and 4*s to scaled up 1*s.

Trisul

ark123 wrote:

Abilities are not designed to scale like that. As evidence I present every high placing team on Balance of Power using Juggs - You can't compare 3*s and 4*s to scaled up 1*s.

To be fair Juggs is the only 1* to really scale like that.

Unknown

Trisul wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Abilities are not designed to scale like that. As evidence I present every high placing team on Balance of Power using Juggs - You can't compare 3*s and 4*s to scaled up 1*s.

To be fair Juggs is the only 1* to really scale like that.

Venom scales pretty well too. And storm becomes better than mohawk. But if you go to 2*s you have a ton more examples.

Trisul

ark123 wrote:

Venom scales pretty well too. And storm becomes better than mohawk. But if you go to 2*s you have a ton more examples.

Other heroes scale pretty well, but it's only Juggernaut who reaches obscene broken levels. I mean fighting scaled Ares sucked in the Hunt, but it would have been way worse if it was Juggs instead.

I have a lot of fun in BoP headbutting people. The only one who ruins my day is, yup, an opposing Juggs. You can't run Storm or other low-HP targets because they'll just get one-shot by headbutts on defense.

(btw, I agree with your original point that Juggernaut should not be a model for ability scaling)

Phaserhawk

ark123 wrote:

Trisul wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Abilities are not designed to scale like that. As evidence I present every high placing team on Balance of Power using Juggs - You can't compare 3*s and 4*s to scaled up 1*s.

To be fair Juggs is the only 1* to really scale like that.

Venom scales pretty well too. And storm becomes better than mohawk. But if you go to 2*s you have a ton more examples.

Not sure on the mohawk. If you compare their Hailstorm stats, Mohawk has a much higher damage ratio

if 166=32 dmg
and 40=7 dmg

then up scaling (166*7)=(40*x) x = 29.05 in this scenario. The other way would be (40*32)=(166*x) x = 7.71

It's not much but Mohawk 3* has a better scaling then 1* storm

Kolence

ark123 wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Juggs does very little damage. Unless you mean scaled juggs, which should in no way be compared to 3*s. We don't want all 3*s being as powerful as a 270 juggs.

Juggs: 3520 HP, deals 1100 damage takes 550. Deals 31.25% of an omega tank's life for 15.625% of his. MBW 1540 HP and I'm fairly certain she scales the same as GSBW (5950). OBW is 3430, AWolv is 3920, Patch is 6800. 3920/3430 = 6800 / 5950 = 1.143 HP ratio. An average HP character at level 40 would have 1760 HP.

Jugg deals 62.5% of an average characters life for 15.625% of his own for 6 red AP.

Sentries yellow deals 16.9% of his max life to himself to make a 571 Strike tile (roughly triple his match damage). 4 sources of damage technically compensates for the self inflicted damage but rarely in this game do you ever want to just come out even on an exchange. 1724 damage is a huge chunk of life.

Best case scenario sentry 11 red ap (assuming everyone else is 6800 hp) - 9.5% to Sentry 14.1% to both allies for 73% to all 3 enemies. That's also assuming there are 9 red tiles to destroy. On paper its about on par or slightly better than Headbutt (3 targets for a little less than double the cost) but spreading out the damage to everyone on your team is much worse for health kit consumption.

Green is so messed up its hard to calculate. Pre nerf green did pretty friggin terrible damage without strike tiles up and now the tiles don't even survive.

All in all he'd be in a better place is green was fixed or changed or something not ****, yellow didn't mess him up so badly and if red only damaged himself.

Abilities are not designed to scale like that. As evidence I present every high placing team on Balance of Power using Juggs - You can't compare 3*s and 4*s to scaled up 1*s.

I read the post you quoted as comparing the damage non-scaled Juggs does to himself and the average hit point 1* enemy with the damage non-scaled Sentry does to himself/his team and the average hit point 3* enemy. So, I don't get why mention BoP or comparing 3* with overscaled 1*.

Houtro

stephen43084 wrote:

Houtro wrote:

I think he should be removed from everyone's memory. And then come back furious as ever and destroy everything with the power of a million exploding suns (WR)

That would be a job for 4* The Void...

Let's hope on that

Unknown

Juggernaut has some insane base HP class that only he has for being the Juggernaut. If you look at the logic it's probably meant to be like 'if an ability does X damage, then doing 2X damage and X to self is okay". So they're probably thinking of 6 red doing 4800 damage at 395, which is actually pretty reasonable, and in Juggernaut's case it becomes 9600 to you and 4800 to self, except he also has 25K (or maybe it was 29K) so he doesn't really feel the 4800 damage to himself. If this was on a normal HP character with say 15K HP it might've made sense because you could have a guy with 3K left take a Headbutt and say well we took a third of his HP off for a guy that was going down anyway.

Unknown

Easy fix for the post nerf Sentry to bring him back in line with the likes of 3* Thor: Take off the team damage to World Rupture. It's too long and too costly now to justify it. Before it was there because it was cheap and dirty damage so you paid a HP price for it. Now it doesn't need it.